Electric cars, does everyone really think they are amazing.
Discussion
PixelpeepS3 said:
SimonYorkshire said:
The early adopters really are daft. My mate's dad was an early video recorder adopter - Betamax.
The earlier adopters were far dafter!SimonYorkshire said:
The Mad Monk said:
We will probably have a situation where, in the middle of the night, your electric car will drive itself round the corner to a local charging area, charge itself up, and drive itself back.
I think probably not. If each car takes X hours to recharge and enough cars drive themselves to this facility during the night, how big does the facility have to be? Those of us of a certain age remember the coin operated parking meters that used to run along both sides of every street. Now imagine them coming back, but instead of paying to park, they designate induction charging points under the road. Pay to park and charge by smart phone, whattapp, snapchat thingymagig. Park normally, either by yourself of by the car going off and doing it itself, and the car induction charges itself in next to no time. The bit under the road that each car charges from has already stored up a decent amount of KwH electricity that it's slow drawn from the regular 240V, 13 Amp wiring that exists everywhere.
Now, if you think this is all nonsense then how long do you honestly think it'll take local councils to put it in when they realise it's one heck of a good income stream for them? Speaking as a resident of the London Borough of Hounslow, I think it'll take my local council all of about 5 minutes. I also think they'll wack up the council tax a bit more every year and keep cutting back on how often they collect the bins, but then may be I'm just cynical.
RJG46 said:
PixelpeepS3 said:
SimonYorkshire said:
The early adopters really are daft. My mate's dad was an early video recorder adopter - Betamax.
The earlier adopters were far dafter!Can you imagine sinking all your money into a a business converting cars to run on LPG and then hearing they're going to ban all ICE cars from city centres and then stop making them all together in 30 years ?
LOL.
Simon - you literally define the word Metathesiophobia.
Following the success of Audi's Quattro a hell of a lot of other makers came out with 4x4 Saloons in the years after. How long did that vision of the future last?
Where are you getting this s
t about ICE cars being banned from City Centres?LPG - Our Camper has an underslung LPG tank, never struggle to find the stuff. If you do, you can always check any number of LPG finder web sites that cover the UK.
Threads like this prove what a bunch of knobs the EV guys are here.
Glad you can find LPG. I'd have a 30 mile round trip to get it in this part of East Anglia. Or I could make a 5 minute trip to the nearest petrol station (or fill up an EV at home on economy 7 - under 5p a unit)
98elise said:
PixelpeepS3 said:
bodhi said:
PixelpeepS3 said:
SimonYorkshire said:
The early adopters really are daft. My mate's dad was an early video recorder adopter - Betamax.
The earlier adopters were far dafter!Can you imagine sinking all your money into a a business converting cars to run on LPG and then hearing they're going to ban all ICE cars from city centres and then stop making them all together in 30 years ?
LOL.
Simon - you literally define the word Metathesiophobia.
I didn't take delight JUST because he insulted my cheap as chips to run milk float, i take delight because Simon seems to take delight in recycling just about every urban myth going in order to bad mouth an emerging technology.
I suspect he's a troll, however as he tries to justify his factoids (see battery vs cell, and batteries in submarines in the past few pages) then I suspect he's just out of his depth.
His misunderstand of heat pump theory from a few months ago (something he used to sell) was comical
He reminds me of the Black Knight, 'your arm's off'... 'no it isn't'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4
Mostly drivel again from EVers since my last post.
More than 90% of people don't seem to like the advantage vs disadvantage ratio that EVs represent, they are not buying EVs.
Air sourced heat pumps are crap, particularly those that run on batteries in EVs. Efficiency of a heat pump is lowest under conditions when you most need to use the heater (i.e. when it is actually cold lol). An ice vehicle heater is many times more powerful than an EVs heater and doesn't reduce the range of the vehicle when used - under no circumstances does an ice vehicle heater force it's driver and passengers to choose between being uncomfortably cold but having enough range to make it to a destination or being comfortably warm but having to stop mid journey for a few hours of inconvenient charging.
I'm not the troll here, the most troll like person I know of on PH doesn't seem to be around much anymore... Where is that EVer Tinrobot? And what happened to his combined anti LPG conversion and anti SimonYorkshire thread? You know the thread, the one that most EVers from this thread jumped on and agreed with Tinrobot's points on (aiding and abetted his trolling). Next down from Tinrobot in terms of trolling are those who twist words of people they don't agree with, EVers here are doing that again.
Those who want EVs to be the future had better hope current EVs are the early, basic, crappy, top loading (going with that video recorder analogy again), inconvenient, quickly depreciating and devaluing (due to newer front loading models) because if they remain like this the majority of people won't buy one unless/until they are forced to but even in 2040 people will still be able to buy a brand new hybrids that has a fossil fuelled engine. Before VCRs people only had film cameras but before EVs people had ice cars that can do everything an EV can do only much better and far more conveniently, which is where the VCR analogy ends. Current owners of EVs are the early adopters, they are the people who in most others eyes are unnecessarily inconveniencing themselves and losing money in terms of depreciation and devaluation in the process, not to mention not actually achieving anything in terms of saving the planet. If safe clean nuclear fusion electricity had been invented they might have a point but even then it would still be many years before EVs might make sense
98elise said:
....and argues against engineering/physics facts, while claiming to know more than 90% of PH users.
I suspect he's a troll, however as he tries to justify his factoids (see battery vs cell, and batteries in submarines in the past few pages) then I suspect he's just out of his depth.
His misunderstand of heat pump theory from a few months ago (something he used to sell) was comical
Where have I argued against engineering / physics? I find EVers more likely to whitewash over engineering, physics, maths and common sense aspects. I suspect he's a troll, however as he tries to justify his factoids (see battery vs cell, and batteries in submarines in the past few pages) then I suspect he's just out of his depth.
His misunderstand of heat pump theory from a few months ago (something he used to sell) was comical
More than 90% of people don't seem to like the advantage vs disadvantage ratio that EVs represent, they are not buying EVs.
Air sourced heat pumps are crap, particularly those that run on batteries in EVs. Efficiency of a heat pump is lowest under conditions when you most need to use the heater (i.e. when it is actually cold lol). An ice vehicle heater is many times more powerful than an EVs heater and doesn't reduce the range of the vehicle when used - under no circumstances does an ice vehicle heater force it's driver and passengers to choose between being uncomfortably cold but having enough range to make it to a destination or being comfortably warm but having to stop mid journey for a few hours of inconvenient charging.
I'm not the troll here, the most troll like person I know of on PH doesn't seem to be around much anymore... Where is that EVer Tinrobot? And what happened to his combined anti LPG conversion and anti SimonYorkshire thread? You know the thread, the one that most EVers from this thread jumped on and agreed with Tinrobot's points on (aiding and abetted his trolling). Next down from Tinrobot in terms of trolling are those who twist words of people they don't agree with, EVers here are doing that again.
Those who want EVs to be the future had better hope current EVs are the early, basic, crappy, top loading (going with that video recorder analogy again), inconvenient, quickly depreciating and devaluing (due to newer front loading models) because if they remain like this the majority of people won't buy one unless/until they are forced to but even in 2040 people will still be able to buy a brand new hybrids that has a fossil fuelled engine. Before VCRs people only had film cameras but before EVs people had ice cars that can do everything an EV can do only much better and far more conveniently, which is where the VCR analogy ends. Current owners of EVs are the early adopters, they are the people who in most others eyes are unnecessarily inconveniencing themselves and losing money in terms of depreciation and devaluation in the process, not to mention not actually achieving anything in terms of saving the planet. If safe clean nuclear fusion electricity had been invented they might have a point but even then it would still be many years before EVs might make sense
All I would say is that currently it seems to be a mid middle/upper middle class take up, the I3, Tesla's, even the EUP(lad!) and Zoe etc, ie it's more a statement/eco choice than a financially prudent one.
Someone mentioned driving an electric van in London, now when the couriers/hauliers (ie businesses) start to get on board with it everywhere then it obviously (barring some out of the blue subsidies) is worth it/efficient financially. IMO for these driving based businesses to work you need to be able to swap batteries (under current known technology), but they are heavy are they not, which poses more logistical problems.
Is a EV HGV even viable in the mid/longterm, can that be made to work? Will we maybe see electric roads, effectively conveyors, with the vehicles EV only used at each end?
It's all interesting stuff, seems the only EV limitation is range? so a cartridge type battery and 'petrol' stations that you drive in and 2 minutes later drive out with a new charged battery could work in the long run if the infrastructure was there to suit?
Someone mentioned driving an electric van in London, now when the couriers/hauliers (ie businesses) start to get on board with it everywhere then it obviously (barring some out of the blue subsidies) is worth it/efficient financially. IMO for these driving based businesses to work you need to be able to swap batteries (under current known technology), but they are heavy are they not, which poses more logistical problems.
Is a EV HGV even viable in the mid/longterm, can that be made to work? Will we maybe see electric roads, effectively conveyors, with the vehicles EV only used at each end?
It's all interesting stuff, seems the only EV limitation is range? so a cartridge type battery and 'petrol' stations that you drive in and 2 minutes later drive out with a new charged battery could work in the long run if the infrastructure was there to suit?
SimonYorkshire said:
Where have I argued against engineering / physics? I find EVers more likely to whitewash over engineering, physics, maths and common sense aspects.
More than 90% of people don't seem to like the advantage vs disadvantage ratio that EVs represent, they are not buying EVs.
Air sourced heat pumps are crap, particularly those that run on batteries in EVs. Efficiency of a heat pump is lowest under conditions when you most need to use the heater (i.e. when it is actually cold lol). An ice vehicle heater is many times more powerful than an EVs heater and doesn't reduce the range of the vehicle when used - under no circumstances does an ice vehicle heater force it's driver and passengers to choose between being uncomfortably cold but having enough range to make it to a destination or being comfortably warm but having to stop mid journey for a few hours of inconvenient charging.
I'm not the troll here, the most troll like person I know of on PH doesn't seem to be around much anymore... Where is that EVer Tinrobot? And what happened to his combined anti LPG conversion and anti SimonYorkshire thread? You know the thread, the one that most EVers from this thread jumped on and agreed with Tinrobot's points on (aiding and abetted his trolling). Next down from Tinrobot in terms of trolling are those who twist words of people they don't agree with, EVers here are doing that again.
Those who want EVs to be the future had better hope current EVs are the early, basic, crappy, top loading (going with that video recorder analogy again), inconvenient, quickly depreciating and devaluing (due to newer front loading models) because if they remain like this the majority of people won't buy one unless/until they are forced to but even in 2040 people will still be able to buy a brand new hybrids that has a fossil fuelled engine. Before VCRs people only had film cameras but before EVs people had ice cars that can do everything an EV can do only much better and far more conveniently, which is where the VCR analogy ends. Current owners of EVs are the early adopters, they are the people who in most others eyes are unnecessarily inconveniencing themselves and losing money in terms of depreciation and devaluation in the process, not to mention not actually achieving anything in terms of saving the planet. If safe clean nuclear fusion electricity had been invented they might have a point but even then it would still be many years before EVs might make sense
I agree with what you say there, other than I'd just point out that my own drivel is from a petrolhead. More than 90% of people don't seem to like the advantage vs disadvantage ratio that EVs represent, they are not buying EVs.
Air sourced heat pumps are crap, particularly those that run on batteries in EVs. Efficiency of a heat pump is lowest under conditions when you most need to use the heater (i.e. when it is actually cold lol). An ice vehicle heater is many times more powerful than an EVs heater and doesn't reduce the range of the vehicle when used - under no circumstances does an ice vehicle heater force it's driver and passengers to choose between being uncomfortably cold but having enough range to make it to a destination or being comfortably warm but having to stop mid journey for a few hours of inconvenient charging.
I'm not the troll here, the most troll like person I know of on PH doesn't seem to be around much anymore... Where is that EVer Tinrobot? And what happened to his combined anti LPG conversion and anti SimonYorkshire thread? You know the thread, the one that most EVers from this thread jumped on and agreed with Tinrobot's points on (aiding and abetted his trolling). Next down from Tinrobot in terms of trolling are those who twist words of people they don't agree with, EVers here are doing that again.
Those who want EVs to be the future had better hope current EVs are the early, basic, crappy, top loading (going with that video recorder analogy again), inconvenient, quickly depreciating and devaluing (due to newer front loading models) because if they remain like this the majority of people won't buy one unless/until they are forced to but even in 2040 people will still be able to buy a brand new hybrids that has a fossil fuelled engine. Before VCRs people only had film cameras but before EVs people had ice cars that can do everything an EV can do only much better and far more conveniently, which is where the VCR analogy ends. Current owners of EVs are the early adopters, they are the people who in most others eyes are unnecessarily inconveniencing themselves and losing money in terms of depreciation and devaluation in the process, not to mention not actually achieving anything in terms of saving the planet. If safe clean nuclear fusion electricity had been invented they might have a point but even then it would still be many years before EVs might make sense
On air sourced heat pumps I agree they're not great. I'm upgrading my pool in a years time and will be using ground sourced heat pumps with a circulation coil that sits below the water table (handily exactly 1 m below the bottom of the garden thanks to the Grand Union Canal).
Current EV's really are a good analogy to top loading washing machines, or twin-tubs (whatever they are as washing clothes was taken off my duty list 25 years ago when I made everything pink one time).
Early adopters go more for the new technology and then fit their use of it to its limitations. Hence EV's are very common in London as driving distances are short and they're free of all those congestion and pollution taxes. Under circumstances like this they are cheaper overall than an ICE, even accounting for depreciation etc. As the technology evolves, the cost comes down and the ability goes up. Not long I think, before the eGolf is cheaper and better than the petrol/diesel Golf and, as pointed out before, that's when Johnny/Janey Public will all switch to it en-mass as it'll be cheaper per month on those 3 year deals they all get their cars on.
No need for nuclear fusion to power everything as the answer is blowing in the wind. Just take a look at how that has ramped up to a major percentage of generation - and is still growing rapidly, subsidy free and cheaper than any other fuel source. No need to worry about the intermittency of the wind either as the pan european-scandinavian super grid is well into construction and nicely levels each countries wind generation. My own contribution to this is the UK-Germany interconnector that'll be online in 2022 and other than just levelling wind generation between the countries, will also be reducing the domestic electricity price. I used to be an oil & gas engineer, but noticed the writing on a big fat wall I saw coming over the horizon.
I think electric cars ARE more convenient.
Being able to have a full tank every morning is one hell of a convenience vs having to go the godawful places known as petrol stations that have wildly fluctuating prices, you have to queue to fill, queue to pay, get stuck in traffic going to one and going from one. It's just an all round disaster.
I don't regularly go more than 100 miles away from home, if I did I am happy to fast charge a car for a little longer and pay alot less.
Being able to have a full tank every morning is one hell of a convenience vs having to go the godawful places known as petrol stations that have wildly fluctuating prices, you have to queue to fill, queue to pay, get stuck in traffic going to one and going from one. It's just an all round disaster.
I don't regularly go more than 100 miles away from home, if I did I am happy to fast charge a car for a little longer and pay alot less.
jamoor said:
I think electric cars ARE more convenient.
Being able to have a full tank every morning is one hell of a convenience vs having to go the godawful places known as petrol stations that have wildly fluctuating prices, you have to queue to fill, queue to pay, get stuck in traffic going to one and going from one. It's just an all round disaster.
I don't regularly go more than 100 miles away from home, if I did I am happy to fast charge a car for a little longer and pay alot less.
This ^^^^^^Being able to have a full tank every morning is one hell of a convenience vs having to go the godawful places known as petrol stations that have wildly fluctuating prices, you have to queue to fill, queue to pay, get stuck in traffic going to one and going from one. It's just an all round disaster.
I don't regularly go more than 100 miles away from home, if I did I am happy to fast charge a car for a little longer and pay alot less.
my wife's had one for 18 mths now. The joy of being able to home fuel/charge is fab. I totally agree- its depressing for me to have to fill my normal car up- even worse watching £50/£60 to go in, to not even fill it up. And do it all again. The ease for her on the school run/work/activities/shopping dash is brilliant. You'd never ever change back to a "normal" car again
For those that want the maths- its cost £233 in leccy to drive 8000 miles in 12 mths. Convince me any LPG/Ice car is a better financial alternative. I don't think so.
In the 18 mths we've had it, so much has changed. I guess 18 mths from now, they'll be even better.
I think electric cars should be cheaper if they are going to adopted more widely.
I bought a diesel rather than the better petrol version of my V60 Volvo because it gives me 55mpg not 40mpg, regardless of any calculations, having to fill up less is convenient, and over the 147,000 I've drive it in the last 5 years, it's been faultless and cracking value given the discounted £19k I paid for it new, and I've saved circa £1,000 per year on fuel. It worked for me.
I test drove a Tesla S a couple of weeks ago because an EV could work for me. The performance from the line didn't make up for the awful ride, huge bulk, and disappointing feel of the car. Given the huge purchase price, it was never going to be a viable alternative to another diesel estate on cost grounds and unfortunately my green credentials just aren't strong enough to justify the outlay.
Why are they not cheaper, why is the new Tesla 3 not going to be £25K, they're simple, cheaply made with few moving parts, they should be cheap.
I bought a diesel rather than the better petrol version of my V60 Volvo because it gives me 55mpg not 40mpg, regardless of any calculations, having to fill up less is convenient, and over the 147,000 I've drive it in the last 5 years, it's been faultless and cracking value given the discounted £19k I paid for it new, and I've saved circa £1,000 per year on fuel. It worked for me.
I test drove a Tesla S a couple of weeks ago because an EV could work for me. The performance from the line didn't make up for the awful ride, huge bulk, and disappointing feel of the car. Given the huge purchase price, it was never going to be a viable alternative to another diesel estate on cost grounds and unfortunately my green credentials just aren't strong enough to justify the outlay.
Why are they not cheaper, why is the new Tesla 3 not going to be £25K, they're simple, cheaply made with few moving parts, they should be cheap.
SimonYorkshire said:
Mostly drivel again from EVers since my last post.
More than 90% of people don't seem to like the advantage vs disadvantage ratio that EVs represent, they are not buying EVs.
Air sourced heat pumps are crap, particularly those that run on batteries in EVs. Efficiency of a heat pump is lowest under conditions when you most need to use the heater (i.e. when it is actually cold lol). An ice vehicle heater is many times more powerful than an EVs heater and doesn't reduce the range of the vehicle when used - under no circumstances does an ice vehicle heater force it's driver and passengers to choose between being uncomfortably cold but having enough range to make it to a destination or being comfortably warm but having to stop mid journey for a few hours of inconvenient charging.
I'm not the troll here, the most troll like person I know of on PH doesn't seem to be around much anymore... Where is that EVer Tinrobot? And what happened to his combined anti LPG conversion and anti SimonYorkshire thread? You know the thread, the one that most EVers from this thread jumped on and agreed with Tinrobot's points on (aiding and abetted his trolling). Next down from Tinrobot in terms of trolling are those who twist words of people they don't agree with, EVers here are doing that again.
Those who want EVs to be the future had better hope current EVs are the early, basic, crappy, top loading (going with that video recorder analogy again), inconvenient, quickly depreciating and devaluing (due to newer front loading models) because if they remain like this the majority of people won't buy one unless/until they are forced to but even in 2040 people will still be able to buy a brand new hybrids that has a fossil fuelled engine. Before VCRs people only had film cameras but before EVs people had ice cars that can do everything an EV can do only much better and far more conveniently, which is where the VCR analogy ends. Current owners of EVs are the early adopters, they are the people who in most others eyes are unnecessarily inconveniencing themselves and losing money in terms of depreciation and devaluation in the process, not to mention not actually achieving anything in terms of saving the planet. If safe clean nuclear fusion electricity had been invented they might have a point but even then it would still be many years before EVs might make sense
Does coefficient of performance with regard to heat pumps ring any bells?98elise said:
....and argues against engineering/physics facts, while claiming to know more than 90% of PH users.
I suspect he's a troll, however as he tries to justify his factoids (see battery vs cell, and batteries in submarines in the past few pages) then I suspect he's just out of his depth.
His misunderstand of heat pump theory from a few months ago (something he used to sell) was comical
Where have I argued against engineering / physics? I find EVers more likely to whitewash over engineering, physics, maths and common sense aspects. I suspect he's a troll, however as he tries to justify his factoids (see battery vs cell, and batteries in submarines in the past few pages) then I suspect he's just out of his depth.
His misunderstand of heat pump theory from a few months ago (something he used to sell) was comical
More than 90% of people don't seem to like the advantage vs disadvantage ratio that EVs represent, they are not buying EVs.
Air sourced heat pumps are crap, particularly those that run on batteries in EVs. Efficiency of a heat pump is lowest under conditions when you most need to use the heater (i.e. when it is actually cold lol). An ice vehicle heater is many times more powerful than an EVs heater and doesn't reduce the range of the vehicle when used - under no circumstances does an ice vehicle heater force it's driver and passengers to choose between being uncomfortably cold but having enough range to make it to a destination or being comfortably warm but having to stop mid journey for a few hours of inconvenient charging.
I'm not the troll here, the most troll like person I know of on PH doesn't seem to be around much anymore... Where is that EVer Tinrobot? And what happened to his combined anti LPG conversion and anti SimonYorkshire thread? You know the thread, the one that most EVers from this thread jumped on and agreed with Tinrobot's points on (aiding and abetted his trolling). Next down from Tinrobot in terms of trolling are those who twist words of people they don't agree with, EVers here are doing that again.
Those who want EVs to be the future had better hope current EVs are the early, basic, crappy, top loading (going with that video recorder analogy again), inconvenient, quickly depreciating and devaluing (due to newer front loading models) because if they remain like this the majority of people won't buy one unless/until they are forced to but even in 2040 people will still be able to buy a brand new hybrids that has a fossil fuelled engine. Before VCRs people only had film cameras but before EVs people had ice cars that can do everything an EV can do only much better and far more conveniently, which is where the VCR analogy ends. Current owners of EVs are the early adopters, they are the people who in most others eyes are unnecessarily inconveniencing themselves and losing money in terms of depreciation and devaluation in the process, not to mention not actually achieving anything in terms of saving the planet. If safe clean nuclear fusion electricity had been invented they might have a point but even then it would still be many years before EVs might make sense
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_per...
It's a major principal in how they work, and you thought it was b
ks even though you sold the things.Its basic engineering/physics.
You didn't understand it the first time it was explained and I doubt you would fair better now.
Lorne said:
No need to worry about the intermittency of the wind either as the pan european-scandinavian super grid is well into construction and nicely levels each countries wind generation.
Wrong. Wind variations can be Europe wide.
"Pan-European lulls in the wind stretching from Spain in the South to Sweden in the North, Britain to the West and Germany in the East are commonplace. The combined wind capacity of these six countries is 97.9 GW. On occasions the output from this gigantic resource falls below 3 GW, a load of 2.9%. At present and for the foreseeable future the only way to mitigate for wind variability is back-up from other dispatchable power sources. "
http://euanmearns.com/the-wind-in-spain-blows/
As for subsidy free? Last time I checked existing wind farms are guaranteed subsidies for decades after construction and the subsidies amount to many billions over that term.
Edited by irc on Tuesday 25th September 19:18
The world according to Simon;
"All air sourced heat pumps are crap"
It's Simon who talking crap.
I drive an electric van...installing air sourced heat pumps (for underfloor heating, in NZ).
Both are by far the most cost effective solution for me and my customers.
An electric vehicle is only about range and charging time - I drive around a 1000 miles a month, for under £20. Road tax is another £50 a year - don't bother with insurance (as not required in NZ) - zero servicing.
Also have 3 Nissan Leafs, (staff and wife). Cheapest one was £3,500 - range is limited but it works for the staff member - who can then charge up in the day from the photovoltaics.
Second hand Nissan Leafs are flooding into NZ - saw eight on my 30 minute journey home yesterday.
I doubt I will ever buy another dinosaur ICE vehicle.
"All air sourced heat pumps are crap"
It's Simon who talking crap.
I drive an electric van...installing air sourced heat pumps (for underfloor heating, in NZ).
Both are by far the most cost effective solution for me and my customers.
An electric vehicle is only about range and charging time - I drive around a 1000 miles a month, for under £20. Road tax is another £50 a year - don't bother with insurance (as not required in NZ) - zero servicing.
Also have 3 Nissan Leafs, (staff and wife). Cheapest one was £3,500 - range is limited but it works for the staff member - who can then charge up in the day from the photovoltaics.
Second hand Nissan Leafs are flooding into NZ - saw eight on my 30 minute journey home yesterday.
I doubt I will ever buy another dinosaur ICE vehicle.
The Surveyor said:
I think electric cars should be cheaper if they are going to adopted more widely.
I bought a diesel rather than the better petrol version of my V60 Volvo because it gives me 55mpg not 40mpg, regardless of any calculations, having to fill up less is convenient, and over the 147,000 I've drive it in the last 5 years, it's been faultless and cracking value given the discounted £19k I paid for it new, and I've saved circa £1,000 per year on fuel. It worked for me.
I test drove a Tesla S a couple of weeks ago because an EV could work for me. The performance from the line didn't make up for the awful ride, huge bulk, and disappointing feel of the car. Given the huge purchase price, it was never going to be a viable alternative to another diesel estate on cost grounds and unfortunately my green credentials just aren't strong enough to justify the outlay.
Why are they not cheaper, why is the new Tesla 3 not going to be £25K, they're simple, cheaply made with few moving parts, they should be cheap.
Have a look on Youtube or a Google search for the MEB platform. VW Audi Group have been working on this as their EV platform across all brands and models and its likely to start properly launching late 2019 early 2020. Their mission was a platform that could take numerous body styles, battery sizes and brands (like the current MQB platform) while costing the same as current diesel equivalent models.I bought a diesel rather than the better petrol version of my V60 Volvo because it gives me 55mpg not 40mpg, regardless of any calculations, having to fill up less is convenient, and over the 147,000 I've drive it in the last 5 years, it's been faultless and cracking value given the discounted £19k I paid for it new, and I've saved circa £1,000 per year on fuel. It worked for me.
I test drove a Tesla S a couple of weeks ago because an EV could work for me. The performance from the line didn't make up for the awful ride, huge bulk, and disappointing feel of the car. Given the huge purchase price, it was never going to be a viable alternative to another diesel estate on cost grounds and unfortunately my green credentials just aren't strong enough to justify the outlay.
Why are they not cheaper, why is the new Tesla 3 not going to be £25K, they're simple, cheaply made with few moving parts, they should be cheap.
Rear wheel drive with up to 550km range and 150kw fast charging (all batteries will be liquid cooled).
I suspect that'll be the real start of uptake of EV's in large numbers across Europe. By 2020/21 the charging network should improve sufficiently enough to support demand and with that demand increasing that should then support further expansion of the charging networks.
It's all a bit of a gamble jumping into EV's right now, seeing how the new Leaf has turned into an expensive gamble for many I feel progress in the next couple of years will be so fast that these "legacy" EV's will be hard to shift and left behind.
It's all looking quite good for things to come together nicely, with the Model 3 arriving in the UK around the same time as the MEB platform cars there will be plenty of choice and some real competition which is always healthy.
Edited by Smiljan on Tuesday 25th September 19:23
Nice youtube feature by Autogefühl in English on the MEB platform and future developments.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRFzmdEQ3sM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRFzmdEQ3sM
Smiljan said:
It's all a bit of a gamble jumping into EV's right now, seeing how the new Leaf has turned into an expensive gamble for many I feel progress in the next couple of years will be so fast that these "legacy" EV's will be hard to shift and left behind.
It's all looking quite good for things to come together nicely, with the Model 3 arriving in the UK around the same time as the MEB platform cars there will be plenty of choice and some real competition which is always healthy.
I take your point on longer range EV, but 2nd hand EV prices are actually rising. If there is demand now, there will be demand in the future. Small EV,s that can be used by people who only travel locally, or as small 2nd cars would be perfect for many.It's all looking quite good for things to come together nicely, with the Model 3 arriving in the UK around the same time as the MEB platform cars there will be plenty of choice and some real competition which is always healthy.
Edited by Smiljan on Tuesday 25th September 19:23
Plus, diesel is only going to get less popular
I understand currently they are strong, I'm thinking longer term. Zoe and Leaf prices are strong currently as there aren't many 2nd hand EV's around and there isn't any competition to rival them.
Give it a few years and an early Zoe or Leaf will be worthless. The new Leaf is a real financial gamble now if you're buying with your own money.
Give it a few years and an early Zoe or Leaf will be worthless. The new Leaf is a real financial gamble now if you're buying with your own money.
Diesels are becoming less popular, not many people want an EV... Let me tell you - Demand for LPG conversions is going through the roof.
Take the Volvo mentioned above, petrol version does 40mpg, diesel version does 55mpg. LPG converted petrol version would do maybe 35mpg but on fuel that is under half the price of diesel.
Second hand EVs being imported and sold cheaply in NZ? So which countries are exporting them to NZ and why isn't there a big enough demand for second hand EVs in those countries for them tor remain in those countries?
Been tempted to reply a few times when 'People don't care about residual values because they get cars on HP and let the supplier take the car back after 3 years' has been mentioned. Somebody / some firm takes the hit when a vehicle loses value, if supplier firms take too much of a hit they either go bust or increase prices passing that depreciation/devaluation on to the customer (you).
Take the Volvo mentioned above, petrol version does 40mpg, diesel version does 55mpg. LPG converted petrol version would do maybe 35mpg but on fuel that is under half the price of diesel.
Second hand EVs being imported and sold cheaply in NZ? So which countries are exporting them to NZ and why isn't there a big enough demand for second hand EVs in those countries for them tor remain in those countries?
Been tempted to reply a few times when 'People don't care about residual values because they get cars on HP and let the supplier take the car back after 3 years' has been mentioned. Somebody / some firm takes the hit when a vehicle loses value, if supplier firms take too much of a hit they either go bust or increase prices passing that depreciation/devaluation on to the customer (you).
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Tuesday 25th September 20:04
irc said:
Lorne said:
No need to worry about the intermittency of the wind either as the pan european-scandinavian super grid is well into construction and nicely levels each countries wind generation.
Wrong. Wind variations can be Europe wide."Pan-European lulls in the wind stretching from Spain in the South to Sweden in the North, Britain to the West and Germany in the East are commonplace. The combined wind capacity of these six countries is 97.9 GW. On occasions the output from this gigantic resource falls below 3 GW, a load of 2.9%. At present and for the foreseeable future the only way to mitigate for wind variability is back-up from other dispatchable power sources. "
http://euanmearns.com/the-wind-in-spain-blows/
As for subsidy free? Last time I checked existing wind farms are guaranteed subsidies for decades after construction and the subsidies amount to many billions over that term.
Edited by irc on Tuesday 25th September 19:18
As with any new technology, the early windfarms were subsidy driven. They've kind of moved on a bit since then and I think now operate under a cap and floor or similar regime, where there's a guaranteed floor price for the electricity they generate (without which project finance is kind of tricky) and an accompanying cap. Don't suppose you happen to have the guaranteed floor price of the new Hinkley Point Nuclear plant to compare against that of the latest offshore windfarms by any chance? How about the generating price of coal power stations with their carbon output accounted for?
Anyway, nice graph, but smoke and mirrors I'm afraid.
Edit: I'm sorry, but only september and october for one year? I'm guessing whoever produced it hasn't spent sept and oct in the North sea because if they had they'd know these are the peak months for waiting-on-weather because it's too bloody windy. Oh, hang on, I get it; strong winds make the peaks in the graph really high which compresses the y-axis and means the lulls look a lot lower than they really are. Nice one.
Edited by Lorne on Tuesday 25th September 20:13
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