RE: New TVR - the update
Discussion
dank said:
very exciting to see a new TVR, and with a V8....can't wait!!!!
This. An (almost) off-the-shelf V8 powertrain. It'll be as reliable as the other big ford engines are - IE, will be rare that they fail. Not like the AJP 6 & 8 engines when they were new...
I'm very excited for this. I'd put a deposit down now if I had the money.
Really looking forward to seeing this.
My old S3C TVR listed at just over £24K in 1992 - so that's the equivalent of about £50K today. For that sort of money you got a boat anchor of a Ford Cologne lump, Sherpa front indicators, Citroen CX mirrors and a dissolvable chassis/outriggers (still loved it though).
£90K for this car - sounds fair to me but its in a tough class so however well it goes (and sounds) build quality and reliability need to be exemplary from the off...
My old S3C TVR listed at just over £24K in 1992 - so that's the equivalent of about £50K today. For that sort of money you got a boat anchor of a Ford Cologne lump, Sherpa front indicators, Citroen CX mirrors and a dissolvable chassis/outriggers (still loved it though).
£90K for this car - sounds fair to me but its in a tough class so however well it goes (and sounds) build quality and reliability need to be exemplary from the off...
I for one hope they do well.
Comparisons to 911's have some merit, but are rather pointless.
On the levels they are aiming for I'm sure they can pull some people away from an anonymous mid-range drear-fest 911 as this will have something that they don't - character and originality and that's what a lot of people want. Don't get me wrong, 911R/GT3/2 RS et al are sublime,but there's something exciting and different about a new TVR.
I think people should stop trying to shoot them down before anyone's even seen or driven it!
Comparisons to 911's have some merit, but are rather pointless.
On the levels they are aiming for I'm sure they can pull some people away from an anonymous mid-range drear-fest 911 as this will have something that they don't - character and originality and that's what a lot of people want. Don't get me wrong, 911R/GT3/2 RS et al are sublime,but there's something exciting and different about a new TVR.
I think people should stop trying to shoot them down before anyone's even seen or driven it!
cerb4.5lee said:
Or they want to make a car that you actually drive...rather than be a passenger with all the silly nanny aids.
Your right foot is all you need, and not multiple electronic settings for steering/gearbox/traction/stability control/dampers etc, I appreciate that the modern way is to baby the driver though.
his_right_foot_wasnt_enoughYour right foot is all you need, and not multiple electronic settings for steering/gearbox/traction/stability control/dampers etc, I appreciate that the modern way is to baby the driver though.
If a car had been coming the other way, the drivers wife in the passenger seat of that ^^ elise would likely be dead. That's why you want DSC, no matter how "gifted" a driver you might be (or think you are)
Max_Torque said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Or they want to make a car that you actually drive...rather than be a passenger with all the silly nanny aids.
Your right foot is all you need, and not multiple electronic settings for steering/gearbox/traction/stability control/dampers etc, I appreciate that the modern way is to baby the driver though.
his_right_foot_wasnt_enoughYour right foot is all you need, and not multiple electronic settings for steering/gearbox/traction/stability control/dampers etc, I appreciate that the modern way is to baby the driver though.
If a car had been coming the other way, the drivers wife in the passenger seat of that ^^ elise would likely be dead. That's why you want DSC, no matter how "gifted" a driver you might be (or think you are)
You might want DSC...l know I certainly don't but it's each to their own obviously, the chap in the video just didn't know how to drive and God knows what he'd have done in a fast car.
Lagerlout said:
That, is just terrible, slow, dim witted driving, sorry. Perfect example of what not to do in mid engined car in those road conditions. But it does indicate why numpties need DSC.
Except everyone makes mistakes. Everyone. Even people who aren't "numpties"...... And that day, when you're tired, maybe not concentrating as hard as you should, or perhaps you just misjudge a turn or whatever, that's the day that DSC saves your (or someone elses) life. (IMO, every car sold should have it, as long as you can turn it off for track work etc)
cerb4.5lee said:
l know I certainly don't
^^^ explain?Have you driven a modern sports car with DSC? If you find it a problem and think it's limiting your driving, then i'm afraid it's your driving that's at fault, not the dsc.............
(with the caveat that the driver must be able to turn it off, not to go faster (most modern DSC systems in sports cars require the system to be on to go as fast as physically possible) but for when you just want to show boat on a track (at which point if you mess it up and stick it backwards in the barriers i don't care ;-)
Max_Torque said:
(IMO, every car sold should have it, as long as you can turn it off for track work etc)
For me though if it's going to get switched off there isn't any point in having it, I switched it off in my M3/Z4M because it was too restrictive/spoilt the fun. I was used to not having it though because my 200sx didn't have it(owned 4 years), and my TVR didn't have it(owned 6 years), I just prefer cars without it but understand why many love it though.
I think some people are mixing up comment on the car and the business plan.
I have no doubt that what we'll see in September will be light, fast, brutal and a bit wild.
The challenge will be whether they can make the car, to a standard to compete in a very difficult sector of the market, given their limited resource. This is essentially where the first incarnation of TVR failed. Porsche don't spend hundred's of millions of pounds developing 911's because they like burning money, but because that is what you need to spend to develop a market competitive road car these days.
It is in the little things like the door seals which won't seal, the windscreen wipers which won't wipe, the a/c the won't cool and the alarm that won't go on or off that take a lot of time to get right ( these are just some of the things my Cerbera suffered... ) . TVR's always lacked that final 10% of "finishing", mainly because it takes thousands of man hours to get those bits right and they don't have the time or money to do them
And then there is having the knowledge and experience to build the thing - look how long Aston and Lotus have been in the game ( during which time they have never made any money ) and most people would still say their build quality is average at best. I have spent 30 years in production, and you just can't cut corners - it always comes back to bite you in the end. Yes Maclaren have done well ( though their early cars were a bit ropey ) but they were already a big well managed automotive enterprise with plenty of funding.
I really wish TVR.2 well, but am glad that I am not an investor nor a deposit holder.
I have no doubt that what we'll see in September will be light, fast, brutal and a bit wild.
The challenge will be whether they can make the car, to a standard to compete in a very difficult sector of the market, given their limited resource. This is essentially where the first incarnation of TVR failed. Porsche don't spend hundred's of millions of pounds developing 911's because they like burning money, but because that is what you need to spend to develop a market competitive road car these days.
It is in the little things like the door seals which won't seal, the windscreen wipers which won't wipe, the a/c the won't cool and the alarm that won't go on or off that take a lot of time to get right ( these are just some of the things my Cerbera suffered... ) . TVR's always lacked that final 10% of "finishing", mainly because it takes thousands of man hours to get those bits right and they don't have the time or money to do them
And then there is having the knowledge and experience to build the thing - look how long Aston and Lotus have been in the game ( during which time they have never made any money ) and most people would still say their build quality is average at best. I have spent 30 years in production, and you just can't cut corners - it always comes back to bite you in the end. Yes Maclaren have done well ( though their early cars were a bit ropey ) but they were already a big well managed automotive enterprise with plenty of funding.
I really wish TVR.2 well, but am glad that I am not an investor nor a deposit holder.
PHMatt said:
A base level 911 Carerra has Bi Xenon and "windscreen washer system" listed in standard features. Whilst I'm sure auto wipers and cruise control are there (they're not an option). Parking sensors are listed as an option.
A poverty spec Fiesta is £12,715 and has no Xenon, no cruise control, no rain sensors and no parking sensors.
This took me all of 5 minutes to research.
But the poverty spec Fiesta is way cooler. A poverty spec Fiesta is £12,715 and has no Xenon, no cruise control, no rain sensors and no parking sensors.
This took me all of 5 minutes to research.
Max_Torque said:
Except everyone makes mistakes. Everyone. Even people who aren't "numpties"...... And that day, when you're tired, maybe not concentrating as hard as you should, or perhaps you just misjudge a turn or whatever, that's the day that DSC saves your (or someone elses) life.
(IMO, every car sold should have it, as long as you can turn it off for track work etc)
I totally agree, DSC is a good thing and should be able to be switched just as it is in a S3 Elise. I'm very surprised TVR isn't offering it, it's not rocket science these days. (IMO, every car sold should have it, as long as you can turn it off for track work etc)
I was just commenting on how poor the driving was. You don't go into an strongly cambered downward section of road with a massive trailing throttle in a mid-engined car, or if you do, you better be bloody ready to catch it. DSC would have saved his arse that's for sure.
edo said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Max_Torque said:
(IMO, every car sold should have it, as long as you can turn it off for track work etc)
For me though if it's going to get switched off there isn't any point in having it. I think this new car will have the basics such as ABS and TC but assume developing the really clever modern stuff takes a lot of time and money so might be missing. It just means that when the conditions dictate that it's sensible to have them you just use another car. They're only looking to sell 500 cars a year and I very much suspect that most buyers will have utility vehicles for the chores like the commute or weekly shop. Porsche make a whole range of perfectly good cars for such a purpose and most of them have diesels in them so good mpg. And VAG Bank for affordable finance.
edo said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Max_Torque said:
(IMO, every car sold should have it, as long as you can turn it off for track work etc)
For me though if it's going to get switched off there isn't any point in having it. I don't think you need DSC etc but that's in a properly sorted driver's car which the TVR may not be.
One thing Porsche are very good at is producing cars you can use hard in track without falling apart. Let's see if the new lot can manage the same.
Character is all well and good but not when it is broken down on a trackday!
One thing Porsche are very good at is producing cars you can use hard in track without falling apart. Let's see if the new lot can manage the same.
Character is all well and good but not when it is broken down on a trackday!
My guess is that it will have ABS and traction control but it will be possible to turn off traction. It doesn't make sense to turn off ABS but maybe there is a track mode option which allows that to be turned off.
What it won't have is lane departure sensor, radar distance control, aromatherapy, pupil dilation sensors to measure tiredness. It will expect the driver to use common sense to manage these things.
No doubt it will be compared to an Evora and 911 in this price range. Lotus don't have the sexy engine but they have invested in chassis tuning and that's what you are paying for there. 911 have the all round ability but ubiquity is the price to pay for big manufacturing company investment. TVR will no doubt not have the handling prowess of a Lotus nor the quality and all round ability of the 911. Hell, it probably won't even corner as good or get from A to B as good as either a Lotus nor 911.
But this is the distinction which will attract buyers in this market. The money has been invested in light weight, V8 engine, raw feeling. It will give that raw thrill of driving. A lower down version of an AM V12S manual. Big engine and power for the size and weight of the car.
What it won't have is lane departure sensor, radar distance control, aromatherapy, pupil dilation sensors to measure tiredness. It will expect the driver to use common sense to manage these things.
No doubt it will be compared to an Evora and 911 in this price range. Lotus don't have the sexy engine but they have invested in chassis tuning and that's what you are paying for there. 911 have the all round ability but ubiquity is the price to pay for big manufacturing company investment. TVR will no doubt not have the handling prowess of a Lotus nor the quality and all round ability of the 911. Hell, it probably won't even corner as good or get from A to B as good as either a Lotus nor 911.
But this is the distinction which will attract buyers in this market. The money has been invested in light weight, V8 engine, raw feeling. It will give that raw thrill of driving. A lower down version of an AM V12S manual. Big engine and power for the size and weight of the car.
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