RE: Lexus IS F: Spotted
Discussion
big_rob_sydney said:
I've probably said this many times, but the typical Lexus build quality is at such a high level, materials science aside, it will probably last longer than you will.
In such an eventuality, I would hope to be buried in mine.
My 2 year old daughter (at time of typing) sits in the back and giggles whenever the 2nd intake opens up over 4000rpm and then says "daddy go faster. Make the noise"In such an eventuality, I would hope to be buried in mine.
I don't want to be buried in mine. I want to pass it down to generations :-)
Fuzzy69r said:
You guys must have been reading my thoughts as I have been contemplating one of these for months and months , just trying to decide if it's too much for going too and from work (12 miles all in ) . But I do have a soft spot for the Q-car appeal of these
My daily commute is 5 miles all in. I would walk/cycle but I have to drop daughter off at nursery which is next to work.Do it. Do it. :-)
FTBBCVoodoo said:
V8RX7 said:
Fancy it ?
No - as they never sold them with a manual gearbox
Thanks for sharing such great and insightful feedback. Bravo Sir/Madam. Bravo.No - as they never sold them with a manual gearbox
Perhaps the way PH is these days, you'd prefer we discuss the interior plastics and the finance options ?
It's a crying shame that so many cars aren't offered with the driver involvement package.
V8RX7 said:
A question was asked, and I answered it - strange I thought that was what a forum was about.
Perhaps the way PH is these days, you'd prefer we discuss the interior plastics and the finance options ?
It's a crying shame that so many cars aren't offered with the driver involvement package.
Interior plastics are fine (centre console excluded). Finance options probably limited to a personal loan for a 2008 car ;-)Perhaps the way PH is these days, you'd prefer we discuss the interior plastics and the finance options ?
It's a crying shame that so many cars aren't offered with the driver involvement package.
V8RX7 said:
A question was asked, and I answered it - strange I thought that was what a forum was about.
Perhaps the way PH is these days, you'd prefer we discuss the interior plastics and the finance options ?
It's a crying shame that so many cars aren't offered with the driver involvement package.
Interior plastics are fine (centre console excluded). Finance options probably limited to a personal loan for a 2008 car ;-)Perhaps the way PH is these days, you'd prefer we discuss the interior plastics and the finance options ?
It's a crying shame that so many cars aren't offered with the driver involvement package.
V8RX7 said:
FTBBCVoodoo said:
V8RX7 said:
Fancy it ?
No - as they never sold them with a manual gearbox
Thanks for sharing such great and insightful feedback. Bravo Sir/Madam. Bravo.No - as they never sold them with a manual gearbox
Perhaps the way PH is these days, you'd prefer we discuss the interior plastics and the finance options ?
It's a crying shame that so many cars aren't offered with the driver involvement package.
This really isn't much more than a family car (as opposed to a sports car) with a bigger engine, but which comes with significant levels of quality, NVH suppression, and reliability. I would suggest its a case of horses for courses.
big_rob_sydney said:
While I don't have a problem per-se with the manual focus, you would surely have noticed that the world is moving towards cars without manual gearboxes. Sports cars significantly further up the food chain are doing this, so to expect this from something which is not a sports car, is perhaps the wrong expectation.
This really isn't much more than a family car (as opposed to a sports car) with a bigger engine, but which comes with significant levels of quality, NVH suppression, and reliability. I would suggest its a case of horses for courses.
Obviously I've noticed which is why it really annoys me - I love RWD, Manual and V8 and need 4 seats it ends up a VERY short list of options.This really isn't much more than a family car (as opposed to a sports car) with a bigger engine, but which comes with significant levels of quality, NVH suppression, and reliability. I would suggest its a case of horses for courses.
My thoughts on the Lexus IS-F will follow in a minute, but for the moment, may I say that I love the C63 and the M3 (E92). For me the M3 really is a gorgeous car - arguably one of the best looking bits of kit to ever come out of Stuttgart. The C63 is in my humble opinion starting to look long in the tooth. However, the pure aural filth it emits more than makes up for this.
So, the IS-F. Right now, I'm sat in my favourite coffee shop. Outside is my 09 Lexus IS-F. Probably 100 people have walked past it in the last hour and the one thing they have in common is their disinterest in the car. Last week my 16 yr old son said to me "Dad, I'm sick of having to explain to people what a Lexus IS-F is. All my mates say Lexus are for old people". For me, the pure wolf in sheep's clothing nature of this car is fabulous.
Only real petrol heads know what an IS-F is. As an example, whilst at a wedding last year, I was chatting to the groom (who owned a lovely Porsche Cayman GT4). We got talking about cars and he asked what car I drove. If I owned a BMW M3, or a Mercedes C63, I could probably have replied to his question with "M3" or "C63", but Lexus IS-F....? In this case, I replied to his question "You'll know what an M3 is and you'll know what a C63 is, well I dive the Lexus equivalent". To which he replies - "IS-F?". A true petrol head.
The vast majority of F owners have ended up with an F after much research. It's the thinking man's car. I would guess most owners started their search with the requirement for a V8 saloon that went like stink. They would have considered the cars I have already mentioned as well as others such as the Audi RS4, the VXR8 and similar. So why give up on the others and settle for an IS-F? I suspect it comes down to running costs and build quality.
Make no mistake, the IS-F is a Lexus and therefore inherits superb build quality. Forget Mercedes and BMW, Lexus completely blows them out of the water. The IS-F is bulletproof. I've owned my for a little over a year, and outside of tyres and servicing I have spent £0.00 on the car. Speak to any IS-F owner and they will give you the same story. They just don't go wrong. I've run performance cars before, including TVR, Porsche and BMW, all of which generated large unexpected bills. I've driven four IS-Fs, with varied mileage, ranging from 30,000 to 120,000 miles on the clock. They all feel the same - tight and fresh. One of these examples has had a very hard life, but it still remains fresh. Actually, they all feel brand new.
The gearbox is slow. The ride is harsh. You'll hear both of these claims used regularly. Lets start with the gearbox. It is ridiculous to say this gearbox is slow or dumb-witted. Back in 2008, when the IS-F was released, it was one of the fastest, if not THE fastest production box on the market. No, it isn't a twin clutch system, and it shouldn't be compared to the latest DCT, DSG or Porsche Doppelkupplug, but it is still a quick changing box - and as smooth as silk when you want to cruise.
As for the ride being harsh. As I've said, I've driven M3s, C63s, E63s etc. They all have firm rides. I suffer from a bad back and I'm happy to live with the IS-F ride. It really isn't as bad as the motoring press would make you believe. Drive an M3 and IS-F back to back and I doubt you'll complain.
Finally, its great fun being an IS-F owner. There aren't that many of us about - with approximately 200 IS-Fs in the UK. It's a small community of likeminded people. It's a safe bet that 20% of all UK IS-F drivers could guess exactly what cafe I am sat in right now.
Go try an IS-F, I don't think you'll be disappointed. I'm going home now - I think I'll take the long route.
So, the IS-F. Right now, I'm sat in my favourite coffee shop. Outside is my 09 Lexus IS-F. Probably 100 people have walked past it in the last hour and the one thing they have in common is their disinterest in the car. Last week my 16 yr old son said to me "Dad, I'm sick of having to explain to people what a Lexus IS-F is. All my mates say Lexus are for old people". For me, the pure wolf in sheep's clothing nature of this car is fabulous.
Only real petrol heads know what an IS-F is. As an example, whilst at a wedding last year, I was chatting to the groom (who owned a lovely Porsche Cayman GT4). We got talking about cars and he asked what car I drove. If I owned a BMW M3, or a Mercedes C63, I could probably have replied to his question with "M3" or "C63", but Lexus IS-F....? In this case, I replied to his question "You'll know what an M3 is and you'll know what a C63 is, well I dive the Lexus equivalent". To which he replies - "IS-F?". A true petrol head.
The vast majority of F owners have ended up with an F after much research. It's the thinking man's car. I would guess most owners started their search with the requirement for a V8 saloon that went like stink. They would have considered the cars I have already mentioned as well as others such as the Audi RS4, the VXR8 and similar. So why give up on the others and settle for an IS-F? I suspect it comes down to running costs and build quality.
Make no mistake, the IS-F is a Lexus and therefore inherits superb build quality. Forget Mercedes and BMW, Lexus completely blows them out of the water. The IS-F is bulletproof. I've owned my for a little over a year, and outside of tyres and servicing I have spent £0.00 on the car. Speak to any IS-F owner and they will give you the same story. They just don't go wrong. I've run performance cars before, including TVR, Porsche and BMW, all of which generated large unexpected bills. I've driven four IS-Fs, with varied mileage, ranging from 30,000 to 120,000 miles on the clock. They all feel the same - tight and fresh. One of these examples has had a very hard life, but it still remains fresh. Actually, they all feel brand new.
The gearbox is slow. The ride is harsh. You'll hear both of these claims used regularly. Lets start with the gearbox. It is ridiculous to say this gearbox is slow or dumb-witted. Back in 2008, when the IS-F was released, it was one of the fastest, if not THE fastest production box on the market. No, it isn't a twin clutch system, and it shouldn't be compared to the latest DCT, DSG or Porsche Doppelkupplug, but it is still a quick changing box - and as smooth as silk when you want to cruise.
As for the ride being harsh. As I've said, I've driven M3s, C63s, E63s etc. They all have firm rides. I suffer from a bad back and I'm happy to live with the IS-F ride. It really isn't as bad as the motoring press would make you believe. Drive an M3 and IS-F back to back and I doubt you'll complain.
Finally, its great fun being an IS-F owner. There aren't that many of us about - with approximately 200 IS-Fs in the UK. It's a small community of likeminded people. It's a safe bet that 20% of all UK IS-F drivers could guess exactly what cafe I am sat in right now.
Go try an IS-F, I don't think you'll be disappointed. I'm going home now - I think I'll take the long route.
TeaVR said:
My thoughts on the Lexus IS-F will follow in a minute, but for the moment, may I say that I love the C63 and the M3 (E92). For me the M3 really is a gorgeous car - arguably one of the best looking bits of kit to ever come out of Stuttgart. The C63 is in my humble opinion starting to look long in the tooth. However, the pure aural filth it emits more than makes up for this.
So, the IS-F. Right now, I'm sat in my favourite coffee shop. Outside is my 09 Lexus IS-F. Probably 100 people have walked past it in the last hour and the one thing they have in common is their disinterest in the car. Last week my 16 yr old son said to me "Dad, I'm sick of having to explain to people what a Lexus IS-F is. All my mates say Lexus are for old people". For me, the pure wolf in sheep's clothing nature of this car is fabulous.
Only real petrol heads know what an IS-F is. As an example, whilst at a wedding last year, I was chatting to the groom (who owned a lovely Porsche Cayman GT4). We got talking about cars and he asked what car I drove. If I owned a BMW M3, or a Mercedes C63, I could probably have replied to his question with "M3" or "C63", but Lexus IS-F....? In this case, I replied to his question "You'll know what an M3 is and you'll know what a C63 is, well I dive the Lexus equivalent". To which he replies - "IS-F?". A true petrol head.
The vast majority of F owners have ended up with an F after much research. It's the thinking man's car. I would guess most owners started their search with the requirement for a V8 saloon that went like stink. They would have considered the cars I have already mentioned as well as others such as the Audi RS4, the VXR8 and similar. So why give up on the others and settle for an IS-F? I suspect it comes down to running costs and build quality.
Make no mistake, the IS-F is a Lexus and therefore inherits superb build quality. Forget Mercedes and BMW, Lexus completely blows them out of the water. The IS-F is bulletproof. I've owned my for a little over a year, and outside of tyres and servicing I have spent £0.00 on the car. Speak to any IS-F owner and they will give you the same story. They just don't go wrong. I've run performance cars before, including TVR, Porsche and BMW, all of which generated large unexpected bills. I've driven four IS-Fs, with varied mileage, ranging from 30,000 to 120,000 miles on the clock. They all feel the same - tight and fresh. One of these examples has had a very hard life, but it still remains fresh. Actually, they all feel brand new.
The gearbox is slow. The ride is harsh. You'll hear both of these claims used regularly. Lets start with the gearbox. It is ridiculous to say this gearbox is slow or dumb-witted. Back in 2008, when the IS-F was released, it was one of the fastest, if not THE fastest production box on the market. No, it isn't a twin clutch system, and it shouldn't be compared to the latest DCT, DSG or Porsche Doppelkupplug, but it is still a quick changing box - and as smooth as silk when you want to cruise.
As for the ride being harsh. As I've said, I've driven M3s, C63s, E63s etc. They all have firm rides. I suffer from a bad back and I'm happy to live with the IS-F ride. It really isn't as bad as the motoring press would make you believe. Drive an M3 and IS-F back to back and I doubt you'll complain.
Finally, its great fun being an IS-F owner. There aren't that many of us about - with approximately 200 IS-Fs in the UK. It's a small community of likeminded people. It's a safe bet that 20% of all UK IS-F drivers could guess exactly what cafe I am sat in right now.
Go try an IS-F, I don't think you'll be disappointed. I'm going home now - I think I'll take the long route.
As a fellow ISF owner I agree with all of the above apart from the M3 being one of the best looking bits of kit to come out of Stuttgart. It's from Munich ;-)So, the IS-F. Right now, I'm sat in my favourite coffee shop. Outside is my 09 Lexus IS-F. Probably 100 people have walked past it in the last hour and the one thing they have in common is their disinterest in the car. Last week my 16 yr old son said to me "Dad, I'm sick of having to explain to people what a Lexus IS-F is. All my mates say Lexus are for old people". For me, the pure wolf in sheep's clothing nature of this car is fabulous.
Only real petrol heads know what an IS-F is. As an example, whilst at a wedding last year, I was chatting to the groom (who owned a lovely Porsche Cayman GT4). We got talking about cars and he asked what car I drove. If I owned a BMW M3, or a Mercedes C63, I could probably have replied to his question with "M3" or "C63", but Lexus IS-F....? In this case, I replied to his question "You'll know what an M3 is and you'll know what a C63 is, well I dive the Lexus equivalent". To which he replies - "IS-F?". A true petrol head.
The vast majority of F owners have ended up with an F after much research. It's the thinking man's car. I would guess most owners started their search with the requirement for a V8 saloon that went like stink. They would have considered the cars I have already mentioned as well as others such as the Audi RS4, the VXR8 and similar. So why give up on the others and settle for an IS-F? I suspect it comes down to running costs and build quality.
Make no mistake, the IS-F is a Lexus and therefore inherits superb build quality. Forget Mercedes and BMW, Lexus completely blows them out of the water. The IS-F is bulletproof. I've owned my for a little over a year, and outside of tyres and servicing I have spent £0.00 on the car. Speak to any IS-F owner and they will give you the same story. They just don't go wrong. I've run performance cars before, including TVR, Porsche and BMW, all of which generated large unexpected bills. I've driven four IS-Fs, with varied mileage, ranging from 30,000 to 120,000 miles on the clock. They all feel the same - tight and fresh. One of these examples has had a very hard life, but it still remains fresh. Actually, they all feel brand new.
The gearbox is slow. The ride is harsh. You'll hear both of these claims used regularly. Lets start with the gearbox. It is ridiculous to say this gearbox is slow or dumb-witted. Back in 2008, when the IS-F was released, it was one of the fastest, if not THE fastest production box on the market. No, it isn't a twin clutch system, and it shouldn't be compared to the latest DCT, DSG or Porsche Doppelkupplug, but it is still a quick changing box - and as smooth as silk when you want to cruise.
As for the ride being harsh. As I've said, I've driven M3s, C63s, E63s etc. They all have firm rides. I suffer from a bad back and I'm happy to live with the IS-F ride. It really isn't as bad as the motoring press would make you believe. Drive an M3 and IS-F back to back and I doubt you'll complain.
Finally, its great fun being an IS-F owner. There aren't that many of us about - with approximately 200 IS-Fs in the UK. It's a small community of likeminded people. It's a safe bet that 20% of all UK IS-F drivers could guess exactly what cafe I am sat in right now.
Go try an IS-F, I don't think you'll be disappointed. I'm going home now - I think I'll take the long route.
And on a similar front while waiting outside Tesco for my wife to buy bread, an Evo driver has just walked past my car and gone "bloody hell an ISF" :-)
TeaVR said:
My thoughts on the Lexus IS-F will follow in a minute, but for the moment, may I say that I love the C63 and the M3 (E92). For me the M3 really is a gorgeous car - arguably one of the best looking bits of kit to ever come out of Stuttgart. The C63 is in my humble opinion starting to look long in the tooth. However, the pure aural filth it emits more than makes up for this.
So, the IS-F. Right now, I'm sat in my favourite coffee shop. Outside is my 09 Lexus IS-F. Probably 100 people have walked past it in the last hour and the one thing they have in common is their disinterest in the car. Last week my 16 yr old son said to me "Dad, I'm sick of having to explain to people what a Lexus IS-F is. All my mates say Lexus are for old people". For me, the pure wolf in sheep's clothing nature of this car is fabulous.
Only real petrol heads know what an IS-F is. As an example, whilst at a wedding last year, I was chatting to the groom (who owned a lovely Porsche Cayman GT4). We got talking about cars and he asked what car I drove. If I owned a BMW M3, or a Mercedes C63, I could probably have replied to his question with "M3" or "C63", but Lexus IS-F....? In this case, I replied to his question "You'll know what an M3 is and you'll know what a C63 is, well I dive the Lexus equivalent". To which he replies - "IS-F?". A true petrol head.
The vast majority of F owners have ended up with an F after much research. It's the thinking man's car. I would guess most owners started their search with the requirement for a V8 saloon that went like stink. They would have considered the cars I have already mentioned as well as others such as the Audi RS4, the VXR8 and similar. So why give up on the others and settle for an IS-F? I suspect it comes down to running costs and build quality.
Make no mistake, the IS-F is a Lexus and therefore inherits superb build quality. Forget Mercedes and BMW, Lexus completely blows them out of the water. The IS-F is bulletproof. I've owned my for a little over a year, and outside of tyres and servicing I have spent £0.00 on the car. Speak to any IS-F owner and they will give you the same story. They just don't go wrong. I've run performance cars before, including TVR, Porsche and BMW, all of which generated large unexpected bills. I've driven four IS-Fs, with varied mileage, ranging from 30,000 to 120,000 miles on the clock. They all feel the same - tight and fresh. One of these examples has had a very hard life, but it still remains fresh. Actually, they all feel brand new.
The gearbox is slow. The ride is harsh. You'll hear both of these claims used regularly. Lets start with the gearbox. It is ridiculous to say this gearbox is slow or dumb-witted. Back in 2008, when the IS-F was released, it was one of the fastest, if not THE fastest production box on the market. No, it isn't a twin clutch system, and it shouldn't be compared to the latest DCT, DSG or Porsche Doppelkupplug, but it is still a quick changing box - and as smooth as silk when you want to cruise.
As for the ride being harsh. As I've said, I've driven M3s, C63s, E63s etc. They all have firm rides. I suffer from a bad back and I'm happy to live with the IS-F ride. It really isn't as bad as the motoring press would make you believe. Drive an M3 and IS-F back to back and I doubt you'll complain.
Finally, its great fun being an IS-F owner. There aren't that many of us about - with approximately 200 IS-Fs in the UK. It's a small community of likeminded people. It's a safe bet that 20% of all UK IS-F drivers could guess exactly what cafe I am sat in right now.
Go try an IS-F, I don't think you'll be disappointed. I'm going home now - I think I'll take the long route.
Still a shame its an old mans partridge mobile!So, the IS-F. Right now, I'm sat in my favourite coffee shop. Outside is my 09 Lexus IS-F. Probably 100 people have walked past it in the last hour and the one thing they have in common is their disinterest in the car. Last week my 16 yr old son said to me "Dad, I'm sick of having to explain to people what a Lexus IS-F is. All my mates say Lexus are for old people". For me, the pure wolf in sheep's clothing nature of this car is fabulous.
Only real petrol heads know what an IS-F is. As an example, whilst at a wedding last year, I was chatting to the groom (who owned a lovely Porsche Cayman GT4). We got talking about cars and he asked what car I drove. If I owned a BMW M3, or a Mercedes C63, I could probably have replied to his question with "M3" or "C63", but Lexus IS-F....? In this case, I replied to his question "You'll know what an M3 is and you'll know what a C63 is, well I dive the Lexus equivalent". To which he replies - "IS-F?". A true petrol head.
The vast majority of F owners have ended up with an F after much research. It's the thinking man's car. I would guess most owners started their search with the requirement for a V8 saloon that went like stink. They would have considered the cars I have already mentioned as well as others such as the Audi RS4, the VXR8 and similar. So why give up on the others and settle for an IS-F? I suspect it comes down to running costs and build quality.
Make no mistake, the IS-F is a Lexus and therefore inherits superb build quality. Forget Mercedes and BMW, Lexus completely blows them out of the water. The IS-F is bulletproof. I've owned my for a little over a year, and outside of tyres and servicing I have spent £0.00 on the car. Speak to any IS-F owner and they will give you the same story. They just don't go wrong. I've run performance cars before, including TVR, Porsche and BMW, all of which generated large unexpected bills. I've driven four IS-Fs, with varied mileage, ranging from 30,000 to 120,000 miles on the clock. They all feel the same - tight and fresh. One of these examples has had a very hard life, but it still remains fresh. Actually, they all feel brand new.
The gearbox is slow. The ride is harsh. You'll hear both of these claims used regularly. Lets start with the gearbox. It is ridiculous to say this gearbox is slow or dumb-witted. Back in 2008, when the IS-F was released, it was one of the fastest, if not THE fastest production box on the market. No, it isn't a twin clutch system, and it shouldn't be compared to the latest DCT, DSG or Porsche Doppelkupplug, but it is still a quick changing box - and as smooth as silk when you want to cruise.
As for the ride being harsh. As I've said, I've driven M3s, C63s, E63s etc. They all have firm rides. I suffer from a bad back and I'm happy to live with the IS-F ride. It really isn't as bad as the motoring press would make you believe. Drive an M3 and IS-F back to back and I doubt you'll complain.
Finally, its great fun being an IS-F owner. There aren't that many of us about - with approximately 200 IS-Fs in the UK. It's a small community of likeminded people. It's a safe bet that 20% of all UK IS-F drivers could guess exactly what cafe I am sat in right now.
Go try an IS-F, I don't think you'll be disappointed. I'm going home now - I think I'll take the long route.
no its a v good car, but for me those connotations, though slightly unfair, stick and the ribbing isn't worth it. When i am middle aged then would defo consider it, but still the badge snob in me may baulk at paying that much (if we are talking new) for a tarted up Toyota. For my latest car to replace the m3 i didn't even consider it or the sterile VAG equivalent, so just looked at the c63 and QV. My attitude unfortunately i think is why there are so few. but for the owners i think the rarity factor is a good thing.
theplayingmantis said:
Still a shame its an old mans partridge mobile!
no its a v good car, but for me those connotations, though slightly unfair, stick and the ribbing isn't worth it. When i am middle aged then would defo consider it, but still the badge snob in me may baulk at paying that much (if we are talking new) for a tarted up Toyota. For my latest car to replace the m3 i didn't even consider it or the sterile VAG equivalent, so just looked at the c63 and QV. My attitude unfortunately i think is why there are so few. but for the owners i think the rarity factor is a good thing.
WTF...ribbing...are you still in school no its a v good car, but for me those connotations, though slightly unfair, stick and the ribbing isn't worth it. When i am middle aged then would defo consider it, but still the badge snob in me may baulk at paying that much (if we are talking new) for a tarted up Toyota. For my latest car to replace the m3 i didn't even consider it or the sterile VAG equivalent, so just looked at the c63 and QV. My attitude unfortunately i think is why there are so few. but for the owners i think the rarity factor is a good thing.
I love a cult car, hence why I'd love an ISF. When you see someone driving an ISF, you know that person has chosen the car for what it is, not cos of the badge on the bonnet.
BUG4LIFE said:
theplayingmantis said:
Still a shame its an old mans partridge mobile!
no its a v good car, but for me those connotations, though slightly unfair, stick and the ribbing isn't worth it. When i am middle aged then would defo consider it, but still the badge snob in me may baulk at paying that much (if we are talking new) for a tarted up Toyota. For my latest car to replace the m3 i didn't even consider it or the sterile VAG equivalent, so just looked at the c63 and QV. My attitude unfortunately i think is why there are so few. but for the owners i think the rarity factor is a good thing.
WTF...ribbing...are you still in school no its a v good car, but for me those connotations, though slightly unfair, stick and the ribbing isn't worth it. When i am middle aged then would defo consider it, but still the badge snob in me may baulk at paying that much (if we are talking new) for a tarted up Toyota. For my latest car to replace the m3 i didn't even consider it or the sterile VAG equivalent, so just looked at the c63 and QV. My attitude unfortunately i think is why there are so few. but for the owners i think the rarity factor is a good thing.
I love a cult car, hence why I'd love an ISF. When you see someone driving an ISF, you know that person has chosen the car for what it is, not cos of the badge on the bonnet.
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