RE: Jaguar F-Type 2.0 vs. Porsche 718 Cayman

[HighwayStar]

craigjm said:

HighwayStar said:

Is that really a serious question!!!??
Anyone looking at a F-Type/Cayman isn't gone come to be considering a Audi/Seat/Skoda/BMW/Ford as an option

Are you saying that the Audi TTRS and the BMW Z4 etc are not competitors to the Cayman? OK the current Z4 isn't great but there is a new one on the way.

Hell no!!! You cheekily left out what else Mr Tidy said...
"Every manufacturer can make a 2 litre 4-pot turbo with 300 ish bhp these days (even Honda have managed it) - so what is so special about the F-Type/Cayman?"

The TT RS has 400bhp and isn't a 2 litre 4-pot.
You could throw the TTS in there, it's basically a Golf R... as you say, the Z4 is dead, the new one is on the way.
He was talking about the hot hatch brigade having the same power as the Jag or Porka so why consider the 2 seater....
So if Ford/Seat/Audi and Skoda (the last 3 would be the same car ) care to pop their 300bhp/2ltr 4s into a 2 seater we can have that conversation.

Apologies Craig, edited, it was Mr Tidy's quote

Edited by HighwayStar on Monday 21st August 16:16

[British Beef]

These cars are the same fecking basic price, the difference is the options fitted.

So how a car can win based on price is absolutely wrong.

Jaguar looks far more of an event, but if it was me I would always be concerned I had missed a "better" car with the V6 or V8 version.

[craigjm]

Won't matter for much longer anyway because your 2.0 turbo four pot will become electric or maybe hybrid electric first with a 1.0 3 pot

Future generations will not know of the sound of a v8 etc so will be irrelevant to them and like it or not those of us that have unleaded in our veins and enjoy the sound of 6,8,10 and 12 pots will be viewed by manufacturers as obsolete opinion.

[BenjiS]

craigjm said:

The view of a Jaguar as being an old mans car is interesting. I guess it depends on when you grew up as to your view.

I suspect like many expensive cars, for a long time you needed to be an older person before you could actually afford to buy one.

[redroadster]

Most people use there cars for commuting stuck in traffic ,there's only one Sunday a week so most of the time the four pot will get job done more efficiently and save on fuel costs. Hardly anyone will thrash these cars to notice that will bumble about .

[HighwayStar]

British Beef said:

These cars are the same fecking basic price, the difference is the options fitted.

So how a car can win based on price is absolutely wrong.

Jaguar looks far more of an event, but if it was me I would always be concerned I had missed a "better" car with the V6 or V8 version.

Nope, no even close
Cayman From £42,897, with DAB & SatNav as standard
http://www.porsche.com/uk/models/718/718-cayman/

F-Type from £49,900
https://www.jaguar.co.uk/jaguar-range/f-type/prici...

[paralla]

craigjm said:

The view of a Jaguar as being an old mans car is interesting. I guess it depends on when you grew up as to your view.

When I was growing up all Jaguar made was exeuctive barges, their most sporting car was the XJ-S.

[ONtheROCS]

British Beef said:

These cars are the same fecking basic price, the difference is the options fitted.

So how a car can win based on price is absolutely wrong.

Jaguar looks far more of an event, but if it was me I would always be concerned I had missed a "better" car with the V6 or V8 version.

The Porsche 718 starts at £44k with PDK, the Jaguar F type starts at £50K. I haven't studied the standard kit between the two and I'm sure the Porsche needs more £ spent to bring it up to a decent spec but they aren't the same price at all. The 718 Cayman S and R dynamic models are similarly priced but the Porker has 50 more BHP.

[KevinCamaroSS]

Of course neither car would stack up against a V8 Mustang (or even the 2.3 ecoboost) if looking at price and specification.

[J4CKO]

craigjm said:

Won't matter for much longer anyway because your 2.0 turbo four pot will become electric or maybe hybrid electric first with a 1.0 3 pot

Future generations will not know of the sound of a v8 etc so will be irrelevant to them and like it or not those of us that have unleaded in our veins and enjoy the sound of 6,8,10 and 12 pots will be viewed by manufacturers as obsolete opinion.

Yes, and we will all die off and the people born now will not really be all that fussed, like most of us cant give a flying toss about riding horses or the Spinning Jenny.

Petrolheads liking how an engine sounds is pretty low down the agenda for most purposes, the manufacturers include some now now to flog a few more so I am guessing, if there is a market, they will service it as long as it makes money but the bulk of folk have other priorities like economy, image, safety, range etc, and really near silence would be considered a virtue by a lot of buyers.

[BenjiS]

KevinCamaroSS said:

Of course neither car would stack up against a V8 Mustang (or even the 2.3 ecoboost) if looking at price and specification.

That's a bit like saying a Jaguar XF wouldn't stack up against a Mondeo if looking at price and specification.

It's completely true, but the person looking at an XF isn't likely to be looking at a Mondeo.

[diehardbenzfan]

Paddy78 said:

Something to do with the fact that you can do 70mph in 2nd... Kind of rendering all other gears useless if revving out at legal speeds. You get to do one gear change and then stay in 2nd for the rest of your drive out in the country. £1500 fixes that with a diff and final drive, but would also probably ruin you fuel economy.

I have never driven a Porsche or been in one on my life so correct me if I'm wrong but as it's turbo charged, surely you wouldn't need to hit the redline in second as you would in the 2.7. E.g change up to third earlier and the the torque that comes early in the rev range carries it through third?

Edited by diehardbenzfan on Monday 21st August 17:26

[HighwayStar]

J4CKO said:

craigjm said:

Won't matter for much longer anyway because your 2.0 turbo four pot will become electric or maybe hybrid electric first with a 1.0 3 pot

Future generations will not know of the sound of a v8 etc so will be irrelevant to them and like it or not those of us that have unleaded in our veins and enjoy the sound of 6,8,10 and 12 pots will be viewed by manufacturers as obsolete opinion.

Yes, and we will all die off and the people born now will not really be all that fussed, like most of us cant give a flying toss about riding horses or the Spinning Jenny.

Petrolheads liking how an engine sounds is pretty low down the agenda for most purposes, the manufacturers include some now now to flog a few more so I am guessing, if there is a market, they will service it as long as it makes money but the bulk of folk have other priorities like economy, image, safety, range etc, and really near silence would be considered a virtue by a lot of buyers.

Exactly, the priorities of the few on here aren't going to keep the likes of any of the big producers a float and in profit. They cry out for light and simple but a Lotus gets reviewed and what do you know. It's too basic, not enough kit, too expensive, who will buy it... a Porsche is better.
Hope it comes with a manual... the new M5 is auto only. The US who got special treatment for their love of 'stick' didn't buy them either.
The bulk of buyers have as you say other priorities, more general ones... image-does it look good, safety, wow it's omg amazing inside and the tech. A-mazing. The majority are not excited by the sound of the engine, even if they are the hear the roar and imagine the costs to keep the beast on the road. Handling, feel, involvement... it's just not part of the brief when purchasing. If it was, we'd be seeing a lot more interesting stuff on the road...
The manufactures know what the majority want and serve it up. We can moan all we like about It but it is what it is.

[craigjm]

Agreed highwaystar. Not to mention that die hard traditionalist fans of both brands will look at these cars as not a Jag because William Lyons didn't clap eyes on it or not a Porsche because it cools itself with water

[Matt Bird]

Oso said:

Argh the problem with you journos going on about price is that you never actually have to buy a car!!!

If you got into the detail of negotiating a deal, you'd know that whereas it's very hard to get money off a new Porsche, you can get 10% of an F-type as well as 0% finance if you put down a one-third deposit. Once you take that into account the prices of the two cars is broadly comparable.

Good point, we don't! We'd be the dealer's worst nightmare if we did though - small wheels and the manual gearbox for all! Thanks for adding that though, I didn't know about the favourable Jag deals. Would be a tough decision at similar money!


Matt

[Matt Bird]

ash73 said:

British Beef said:

So how a car can win based on price is absolutely wrong.

It's PH the Porsche always wins; even though the whole article praises the F-Type. Loyal PH troopers will buy the Porsche, post a picture of it parked in their immaculate garage with a painted floor and £10K toolset in the background, then in 18 months they'll complain the engine went bang and the warranty won't cover it because they fitted non-OEM tyre valve caps.

Meanwhile anyone with any common sense buys the Jaguar.

Well that's a bit harsh, isn't it? As established both the base price and the as-tested one isn't great for the Jaguar and the Porsche remains a very good sports car. The Jaguar is as well but, in this test, the verdict went to the Cayman for the reasons outlined.

Obviously we can't comment on problems secondhand (can anyone given how new the cars are?) though I'm not sure I'd hold up a JLR product as a bastion of reliability!

[J4CKO]

I think like with me, a lot wouldnt spend our hypothetical 50 odd grand on these two, there is way more interesting stuff for me to bit off more than I can chew in that price range however, there are plenty of people with an actual 50 plus grand, that may consider them an option, probably lease one and be quite happy, there may be the odd private purchase as well.

l think as well as this being under engined, not in reality, but by our lofty PH standards it probably isnt for those who buy it, however we could say that the other options are over engined for a lot of owners, and offering a more tepid version they are doing the right thing, depends how you look at it I guess, my mother in law for example quite likes a Jag, quite likes a sportscar (not Porsches, unsafe apparently) so she might treat herself but the other versions would be a waste, a quarter throttle in my Merc and she starts making uneasy noises, half and she starts jabbering, full beans and she will emit a shrill scream, she would declare the 4 cyl jag as "hellish fast".

If you want these companie to keep producing GT3's and R things, they need to be profitable, which means making stuff you might not like.


I would be happy with either, if offered a swap for my current Merc, I am sure I would, and would enjoy either, I just wouldnt tell you lot as unless its the top model with sprinkles, its a bag of poo, maybe I am just not that discerning, maybe you are all wealthier and more demanding, but I would be happy with either, as a package, I could overlook the lack of aural stimulation and straight line thrust as the rest will be better than anythign I have owned.

[LuS1fer]

Matt Bird said:

Good point, we don't! We'd be the dealer's worst nightmare if we did though - small wheels and the manual gearbox for all! Thanks for adding that though, I didn't know about the favourable Jag deals. Would be a tough decision at similar money!


Matt

The thing is that if Jag can offer those deals, they would be better off reducing the price, in line with the Cayman. It's a bit of an own goal to advertise a higher price some can't afford and sell it at a lower price that some can.

[HighwayStar]

craigjm said:

Agreed highwaystar. Not to mention that die hard traditionalist fans of both brands will look at these cars as not a Jag because William Lyons didn't clap eyes on it or not a Porsche because it cools itself with water

Re the Traditionalist fans that say modern day jags don't like like jags, like XJ6 etc... I never understood that backwards looking view point. Cars that barely sold in their day because their customers had moved onto more sophisticated, more thoroughly developed cars.
In my day I worked my way through 205 GTi 1.9, Clio 16v, 306 GTi-6... TT's my fast but dull period but... there was still go stuff to aspire to, M3 V8, 981 Cayman S etc. Something that I didn't have to be proper wedged for, that I could realistically afford... Got a 981 CS last year...
Where I'm headed with this is kids coming up today, there's precious little interesting for them but... they don't know what they're missing. They're reared on turbos, have no experience of NASP engines... and when they do try one, being used to the surg of turbo power they think their there's something wrong with them. Of course some get it and feel the love, revving it out and enjoying it. With manufacturers pushing nothing but turbo to mainstream the whole driving experience is now turbo, it's what everyone is used to. I read a post here once where a guy said his wife drove a Cayman 987, the one with proper hydraulic steering... with all that info coming through the wheel. She thought there was something wrong with the steering.
Manufacturers in the main don't need to what enthusiasts want because it's wasted on the majority.
Us enthusiasts, we're the guys who still talk about proper rock bands, real music back in the day... no one does that now either!!

[iSore]

At £42'000, is the Cayman even expensive for what it is? When a base spec 520d is around 35 grand and depreciates like a rock off a cliff it seems slightly pricey but not unreasonable. As for the four cylinder thing - look what Old Man Ferry started with. Plus the 914, 912, 924 etc and they weren't even close to 911 performance - but the 918 is knocking on the door of what a 997 was doing 10 short years ago.

I'd buy one - Miami blue with cruise control but nothing else.