RE: DIY supercars
Discussion
What an excellent article.
I think the main difference with enthusiasts that take on these sort of cars is that they can take their time, and do it right to a standard that they are happy with.
Although not a super car I'm in the middle of changing the head gasket on my Porsche 968. As an example; last night I was looking at the cam carrier bolts I could see that a couple had been previously been stripped and removed by having a socket hammered over them. I will now take the time to source the correct replacement bolts, and when it come to refitting the carrier it'll be done correctly. Likewise now the inlet manifold is off I can see the dipstick seal has been weeping, so that'l get changed while I'm in there. I'm not in any great rush to use the car and can take my time and enjoy playing with my tools.
For a lot of people this is nothing to do with money, It's just a hugely satisfying and enjoyable past time.
I think the main difference with enthusiasts that take on these sort of cars is that they can take their time, and do it right to a standard that they are happy with.
Although not a super car I'm in the middle of changing the head gasket on my Porsche 968. As an example; last night I was looking at the cam carrier bolts I could see that a couple had been previously been stripped and removed by having a socket hammered over them. I will now take the time to source the correct replacement bolts, and when it come to refitting the carrier it'll be done correctly. Likewise now the inlet manifold is off I can see the dipstick seal has been weeping, so that'l get changed while I'm in there. I'm not in any great rush to use the car and can take my time and enjoy playing with my tools.
For a lot of people this is nothing to do with money, It's just a hugely satisfying and enjoyable past time.
Same here. Really enjoy a good wrenching sesh, whether I'm working on my 997, our cooking Civic, or the Missus Classic Mini (it's the law with Mini's though, right?)
I've a deep distrust for Main Dealers anyway, borne of my Dad's experiences when things went wrong with his company Astra's many moons ago, one of which was when the cambelt snapped lunching the engine, and the garage it went to found that it was still on it's original despite having been billed for a replacement only 4 months earlier. The treatment of our Civic by the local Honda Main Dealer chain just for servicing has been shocking, not to mention the patronising comments my wife gets when she takes it in.
That a chap found sandwich wrappers in his Ferrari only adds to the feeling that a) Most Main Dealers can't be trusted regardless of 'prestige', and b) A sadly increasing number of mechanics appear to have little, if any, pride in their work these days.
Oh, Yes: A buddy of mine took his Murci to one Lambo main dealer and was vastly unimpressed with their standards, particularly when he got home to find his newly refurbished - black - wheels ruined by a ridiculous overuse of copper grease on the wheel bolts. Took it to a different Main Dealer for a clutch change a year later - they find a load of nuts either cross-threaded or missing from the engine undertays, plus a trim piece missing from the front boot, letting in water.
Yes, my 997 goes to an Indy for servicing but any jobs outside of this I can do, I'm damn well going to scruff up and do it myself. Just this year, I've replaced the discs and pads on all four corners and - regarding the earlier point made about enthusiast owners taking their time to do a proper job - it gave me the opportunity to do a good clean up inside the arches and suspension, plus check everything over properly while I was there. Took me two full days. Getting the front bumper off to clean, inspect and protect the rads with mesh was just over half a day too, and you do get a great feeling of accomplishment when you're done. You need to be confident wielding a spanner in the first place, make sure you've read up all you can before attempting anything and ALWAYS allow a time contingency because it'll never take the two / three / four hours the guy on the internet says it will (For a lot of Porsche jobs, Pelican Parts is an outstanding resource in the regard)
Would I do the same if I had an exotic? Probably, yes. A lot of the jobs have the same process, it's just that the bits cost more (well, you don't always have to pay Main Dealer prices if you know where to look)
I've a deep distrust for Main Dealers anyway, borne of my Dad's experiences when things went wrong with his company Astra's many moons ago, one of which was when the cambelt snapped lunching the engine, and the garage it went to found that it was still on it's original despite having been billed for a replacement only 4 months earlier. The treatment of our Civic by the local Honda Main Dealer chain just for servicing has been shocking, not to mention the patronising comments my wife gets when she takes it in.
That a chap found sandwich wrappers in his Ferrari only adds to the feeling that a) Most Main Dealers can't be trusted regardless of 'prestige', and b) A sadly increasing number of mechanics appear to have little, if any, pride in their work these days.Oh, Yes: A buddy of mine took his Murci to one Lambo main dealer and was vastly unimpressed with their standards, particularly when he got home to find his newly refurbished - black - wheels ruined by a ridiculous overuse of copper grease on the wheel bolts. Took it to a different Main Dealer for a clutch change a year later - they find a load of nuts either cross-threaded or missing from the engine undertays, plus a trim piece missing from the front boot, letting in water.
Yes, my 997 goes to an Indy for servicing but any jobs outside of this I can do, I'm damn well going to scruff up and do it myself. Just this year, I've replaced the discs and pads on all four corners and - regarding the earlier point made about enthusiast owners taking their time to do a proper job - it gave me the opportunity to do a good clean up inside the arches and suspension, plus check everything over properly while I was there. Took me two full days. Getting the front bumper off to clean, inspect and protect the rads with mesh was just over half a day too, and you do get a great feeling of accomplishment when you're done. You need to be confident wielding a spanner in the first place, make sure you've read up all you can before attempting anything and ALWAYS allow a time contingency because it'll never take the two / three / four hours the guy on the internet says it will (For a lot of Porsche jobs, Pelican Parts is an outstanding resource in the regard)
Would I do the same if I had an exotic? Probably, yes. A lot of the jobs have the same process, it's just that the bits cost more (well, you don't always have to pay Main Dealer prices if you know where to look)
Edited by STiG911 on Tuesday 29th August 15:04
Completely agree. I also believe the reliability of a car improves if you've worked on it. The reason being you are aware of what can go wrong, you check things, you listen for noises, you treat things with a little mechanical respect.
Too many people don't even lift the bonnet on their cars; I'm one of the many thousand mx5 converts on here, and I'm practically excited to have a fault to fix!
Too many people don't even lift the bonnet on their cars; I'm one of the many thousand mx5 converts on here, and I'm practically excited to have a fault to fix!
Great to see the responses here. I'm Ian from the article and although the sandwich wrapper quote wasn't mine the rest pretty much sums it up. It's not about saving money (although that doesn't hurt), it's more about the enjoyment of being able to work on the car and the mechanical empathy gained in doing so. When I drive or track my cars I'm constantly listening to the sounds they make and making mental notes of any rattles, whines, whistles or knocks. As mentioned in many posts, it could be any car although I have to admit that working on a Ferrari does make it quite special. Nothing brings home the reality of being fortunate enough to own a special car quite like the experience of fixing it yourself.
It's also not just repairs of course, being able to make changes and upgrades is a large part of it. I currently have my 430 up on the ramp halfway through a brake upgrade. The steels fade on track and the carbon ceramic discs wear quickly if tracked and are expensive to replace, so I'm fitting larger rotors and calipers to improve heat dissipation. I could have ordered directly from Brembo but instead I found a specialist in Worcester to manufacture them for me - it's just more interesting that way and you meet some great people.
It's also not just repairs of course, being able to make changes and upgrades is a large part of it. I currently have my 430 up on the ramp halfway through a brake upgrade. The steels fade on track and the carbon ceramic discs wear quickly if tracked and are expensive to replace, so I'm fitting larger rotors and calipers to improve heat dissipation. I could have ordered directly from Brembo but instead I found a specialist in Worcester to manufacture them for me - it's just more interesting that way and you meet some great people.
Limpet said:
The cambelt on a 2.5 V6 156 rates as one of the worst jobs I've ever done. Partly because access is tight, partly because we had to extract the bolt holding the tensioner in the middle of the vee with the aid of a Dremel and a tap and die kit....
One heck of a belt route to deal with on a transverse engine with a few centimetres clearance against the inner wing...
Water pump was goosed as well, so that had to come off. Again with no room to work.
Hah, this was one of mine last week:One heck of a belt route to deal with on a transverse engine with a few centimetres clearance against the inner wing...
Water pump was goosed as well, so that had to come off. Again with no room to work.
Those bolts holding the idlers are utter b'stards. For the one in the centre of the V, I took off the top mounting plate and then sliced the idler off with an angle grinder. What happens is that the bolt is done up pretty tight, and then the back of the idler corrodes, increasing the tension in the bolt to a huge level. I've put a flim of grease on the back of the idler, and also used 12.9 grade bolts which have a somewhat tougher hex socket.
Top tip to anyone doing this - remove the RH engine mount - that gives you the ability to tilt the engine on a jack, gives you at least an inch more clearance!
Being Northern I don't like spending money on jobs I think I can do myself....
I don't play golf and am not interested in football, for some reason I enjoy being in cold garage by myself..
Having a 4 post lift is a huge help.
I have powder coated all the suspension and sub frames on a Maserati.
I did the cambelt and water pump last year along with regular servicing.
Changed the rear diff a couple of years ago.
Fitted new Gearbox to 550 and changed all the fluids.
Murcielago
even a good indie is a four figure sum for a basic service, fluids and plugs, it cost about £450 for all the parts, that is a lot of money for a "visual inspection".
I am semi confident on bolting large bits together, I would not want to open up an engine, or a job that required specialist expensive tools !
I have had a couple of cars painted and I stripped them down - I enjoyed this as it is the taking things apart, you see how the car goes together, plus it saves on labour !!
I don't play golf and am not interested in football, for some reason I enjoy being in cold garage by myself..
Having a 4 post lift is a huge help.
I have powder coated all the suspension and sub frames on a Maserati.
I did the cambelt and water pump last year along with regular servicing.
Changed the rear diff a couple of years ago.
Fitted new Gearbox to 550 and changed all the fluids.
Murcielago
even a good indie is a four figure sum for a basic service, fluids and plugs, it cost about £450 for all the parts, that is a lot of money for a "visual inspection".
I am semi confident on bolting large bits together, I would not want to open up an engine, or a job that required specialist expensive tools !
I have had a couple of cars painted and I stripped them down - I enjoyed this as it is the taking things apart, you see how the car goes together, plus it saves on labour !!
I love to work on mine but I can't find the enthusiasm for the more regular jobs simply because I've done them many times on other cars, so I will farm out heavy lifting, routine stuff, and messy jobs to my chosen specialist, and also anything that needs very specialist knowledge or factory diagnostic equipment.
I have the car serviced at an independent as not doing so affects the value, and they are so competitive on price it is a no-brainer.
I have the car serviced at an independent as not doing so affects the value, and they are so competitive on price it is a no-brainer.
Hardly similar to a supercar, but for the first time in many years I changed the oil in my latest daily myself yesterday. I'd asked myself why quite a few times and it came down to a few reasons - 1. I know it will have been done correctly 2. It was a fun way to spend a couple of hours to myself away from an 18m daughter (that sounds awful - I don't mean it to) 3. I now have the space with a double garage.
It was so satisfying - I used to wield the spanners when young as money was just beer tokens. Doing it for pleasure really made my day. I'll be doing discs and pads when I get back from holiday.
It was so satisfying - I used to wield the spanners when young as money was just beer tokens. Doing it for pleasure really made my day. I'll be doing discs and pads when I get back from holiday.
xjay1337 said:
Fishy Dave said:
An excellent thread. Whilst I don't own a Supercar I do apply the same logic to all my cars however humble. I enjoy it, I learn, am satisfied in the level of care taken and definitely save money too (more than offsetting any perceived loss of re-sale value). Personally I think a car that is self-serviced often and ahead of schedule should be worth more than one maintained to unnecessarily long modern service intervals at a main dealer. The value of a main dealer stamp is important during warranty, if you intend to px it at a main dealer or you don't have the means to do it yourself, other than that DIY.
As the article mentions the key to self servicing is documenting what you have done and when, keep every receipt, take photos and even post about it on a forum or blog to add to the cars history.
Forums and youtube clips are so helpful that you can easily learn to do things yourself, most recently the valve clearances on my Z4M.
I quite agree. On modern cars 20-25k service intervals are common - crazy!!! As the article mentions the key to self servicing is documenting what you have done and when, keep every receipt, take photos and even post about it on a forum or blog to add to the cars history.
Forums and youtube clips are so helpful that you can easily learn to do things yourself, most recently the valve clearances on my Z4M.
I would only maintain at a dealer during a warranty period like you say.
An oil and filter change on a big Ferrari / Lambo probably costs £800? £1000?
Ultimately you can buy the oil for perhaps £150 (quality stuff) and the filter £30?
The service tech will likely only do the oil and filter and unless there is something obviously wrong (that you would see yourself) will not do any further investigation or health checks!
I always self service, if there is anything I can't do I go to a trusted friend . The only thing I stay away from is electrics and alignment. I'll give most other things a bash even if I get stuck there are plenty of guides online.
Do you have to put something really fancy in, bet it would be fine on some own brand Synthetic
would take pleasure in putting soemthing mundane in, it would be fine. I did my car, stakes the same amount, Merc full synth was £42 for ten litres.Limpet said:
The cambelt on a 2.5 V6 156 rates as one of the worst jobs I've ever done. Partly because access is tight, partly because we had to extract the bolt holding the tensioner in the middle of the vee with the aid of a Dremel and a tap and die kit....
One heck of a belt route to deal with on a transverse engine with a few centimetres clearance against the inner wing...
Water pump was goosed as well, so that had to come off. Again with no room to work.
You have the engine on the bench here but some cambelt changes that are normally done with the engine in Well you might as well take the lump out and do it . When access is poor that maybe the answer and i wonder how many supercar DIyers would do this as a matter of course no matter what a workshop advisesOne heck of a belt route to deal with on a transverse engine with a few centimetres clearance against the inner wing...
Water pump was goosed as well, so that had to come off. Again with no room to work.
I'd much rather do any work on my car myself, I've had all sorts of issues with dealers - Mercedes, VW, Honda, BMW, Mitsubishi dealers etc 'full dealer service history' ha ha - some of them cant seem to change the engine oil properly. tried to charge me more a s a bolt wouldn't come undone? had bits missing and overfilled oil plus scratches and wheel nuts done up waaay to tight or even hand tight.. list goes on.. parts failed to be changed - like air filters ? maybe dealers are up against time and these inclusive service offers means they just do the bare minimum?? I must be a PITA for dealers as i'll read the manual and it says in their whats changed & when. maybe they should read it too...
I've changed regular stuff gearbox oils, discs - pads , brake fluid, clutches, on my boxster S replaced all the suspension parts, gearbox mountings exhaust, driveshaft gaiters, plugs, condensers etc, list goes on this wasn't my daily driver but it was fascinating - i replaced a front wing on this car which i damaged - bought replacement in same color from ebay £40 but took 6 hours to replace as it was a nightmare of parts to remove to take off - then you could see how well engineered the car was..
Changed the springs on my brand new Golf R last year on the drive, neighbors though i was bonkers (fair assessment) and replaced the engine oil after 3k - if i could i'll do all the servicing myself from new as long as i keep the car. may well be an issue whilst in warranty or if i need to sell it. so i'll have to take it in to get the book stamped at some point.
Always do research - can guarantee you'll need a special tool or electronic reset device especially on these modern cars, plastic bits have a habit of breaking, second hand or used parts are an option now, allow plenty of time, for some reason i always get cuts and bruises and injuries even if i just change a bulb - plasters at the ready..
I do it for many reasons - I love doing the oily bits, save some £££, something to do at the weekend, learn about the car, because i can,
All done at home in the garage or the drive.
wish i had a proper huge garage with a lift and all the tools you would ever need - would be a dream...
I've changed regular stuff gearbox oils, discs - pads , brake fluid, clutches, on my boxster S replaced all the suspension parts, gearbox mountings exhaust, driveshaft gaiters, plugs, condensers etc, list goes on this wasn't my daily driver but it was fascinating - i replaced a front wing on this car which i damaged - bought replacement in same color from ebay £40 but took 6 hours to replace as it was a nightmare of parts to remove to take off - then you could see how well engineered the car was..
Changed the springs on my brand new Golf R last year on the drive, neighbors though i was bonkers (fair assessment) and replaced the engine oil after 3k - if i could i'll do all the servicing myself from new as long as i keep the car. may well be an issue whilst in warranty or if i need to sell it. so i'll have to take it in to get the book stamped at some point.
Always do research - can guarantee you'll need a special tool or electronic reset device especially on these modern cars, plastic bits have a habit of breaking, second hand or used parts are an option now, allow plenty of time, for some reason i always get cuts and bruises and injuries even if i just change a bulb - plasters at the ready..
I do it for many reasons - I love doing the oily bits, save some £££, something to do at the weekend, learn about the car, because i can,
All done at home in the garage or the drive.
wish i had a proper huge garage with a lift and all the tools you would ever need - would be a dream...
Pigeon holing diy and dealer services is meaningless .
A dealer is always going to be under time pressure but they have seen the job that needs doing quite often, many times before.
A DIY owner with the right tools and knowledge is worth their weight 9n gold. They will spend a day getting rid of a rattle behind a dashboard. The garge will stick some foam pads in and hope for the best.
A well meaning diy-er without skills or tools is a menace.
A dealer is always going to be under time pressure but they have seen the job that needs doing quite often, many times before.
A DIY owner with the right tools and knowledge is worth their weight 9n gold. They will spend a day getting rid of a rattle behind a dashboard. The garge will stick some foam pads in and hope for the best.
A well meaning diy-er without skills or tools is a menace.
J4CKO said:
They take 9.5 litres, what brand would cost £100 ?
Do you have to put something really fancy in, bet it would be fine on some own brand Synthetic would take pleasure in putting soemthing mundane in, it would be fine. I did my car, stakes the same amount, Merc full synth was £42 for ten litres.
Ester synthetic is about the best stuff money can buy, 10 litres would be about 70 quid. If you look at the photo I posted of the cams in my V6 - that is a 120K mile engine, there is not a trace of varnish in there, it is absolutely spotless. Been running ester for about the last 6 years / 40 k miles. Do you have to put something really fancy in, bet it would be fine on some own brand Synthetic
would take pleasure in putting soemthing mundane in, it would be fine. I did my car, stakes the same amount, Merc full synth was £42 for ten litres.rxe said:
Limpet said:
The cambelt on a 2.5 V6 156 rates as one of the worst jobs I've ever done. Partly because access is tight, partly because we had to extract the bolt holding the tensioner in the middle of the vee with the aid of a Dremel and a tap and die kit....
One heck of a belt route to deal with on a transverse engine with a few centimetres clearance against the inner wing...
Water pump was goosed as well, so that had to come off. Again with no room to work.
Hah, this was one of mine last week:One heck of a belt route to deal with on a transverse engine with a few centimetres clearance against the inner wing...
Water pump was goosed as well, so that had to come off. Again with no room to work.
Those bolts holding the idlers are utter b'stards. For the one in the centre of the V, I took off the top mounting plate and then sliced the idler off with an angle grinder. What happens is that the bolt is done up pretty tight, and then the back of the idler corrodes, increasing the tension in the bolt to a huge level. I've put a flim of grease on the back of the idler, and also used 12.9 grade bolts which have a somewhat tougher hex socket.
Top tip to anyone doing this - remove the RH engine mount - that gives you the ability to tilt the engine on a jack, gives you at least an inch more clearance!
EggsBenedict said:
Bladedancer said:
I think the biggest issue with DIY servicing a supercar is when you come to sell it you won't have any service record
Not true. If you service and maintain the car according the manufacturers schedule, then you should feel entitled to fill in the service book. And then the receipts that you keep (again, and you should) will tally with the dates in the service book. Bladedancer said:
... and you'll have to hope prospective punters will believe your skill is a good as a specialist's.
True. But many a DIY'er's thread (and referenced in the article) start with 'I left my car with a well known main dealership in xyz, and it came back with the outside brake pads changed, but not the inners' or somesuch. Do you aspire to be 'as good' as a specialist in this case, or better?This is not about aspiring. This is about having knowledge, experience and resources. A mechanic will know the car. They have seen dozens, maybe hundreds of them. They will know how to go about given model, dos and donts etc etc. You will learn the car and make mistakes while doing so.
I have no doubt that devoted petrolhead could do a better and more thorough job them a mechanic. But before that level of expertise is achieved, as they say, mistakes are made.
In all honesty, after my own experiences, I wouldn't go to main dealer unless there was no other choice
I used a BMW specialist is the past and was very happy. Now I have a trusted independent to service my MB and remain happy. And these guys know the model inside-out.
Main dealers these days seem to be full of kids doing their NVQ and just doing what the computer tells them to do and that lot is overseen by one senior technician, if you're lucky.
Edited by Bladedancer on Wednesday 30th August 07:01
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