RE: New TVR Griffith - official

[NickCQ]

DonkeyApple said:

That's what the marketing tells you. But the reality is that the buyers in the U.K. of vehicles at this price point are predominantly white, over 55s. Hence my hyperbolic post.

I think this is right. Those in the younger generation that have the disposable income to think about this price point predominantly live in central London, where there's just no point in having a sports car. There haven't been yuppies driving guards red 911s around the city for a very long time. The presence of the Arab contingent in the summer doesn't change this.

[Ares]

NickCQ said:

DonkeyApple said:

That's what the marketing tells you. But the reality is that the buyers in the U.K. of vehicles at this price point are predominantly white, over 55s. Hence my hyperbolic post.

I think this is right. Those in the younger generation that have the disposable income to think about this price point predominantly live in central London, where there's just no point in having a sports car. There haven't been yuppies driving guards red 911s around the city for a very long time. The presence of the Arab contingent in the summer doesn't change this.

There's a whole world of affluent 40-somethings outside London

[Dr Interceptor]

Ares said:

NickCQ said:

DonkeyApple said:

That's what the marketing tells you. But the reality is that the buyers in the U.K. of vehicles at this price point are predominantly white, over 55s. Hence my hyperbolic post.

I think this is right. Those in the younger generation that have the disposable income to think about this price point predominantly live in central London, where there's just no point in having a sports car. There haven't been yuppies driving guards red 911s around the city for a very long time. The presence of the Arab contingent in the summer doesn't change this.

There's a whole world of affluent 40-somethings outside London

I'm 34, and in Hampshire

Plenty of my friends around my age buying F-Types and 911's.

[Ares]

Dr Interceptor said:

Ares said:

NickCQ said:

DonkeyApple said:

That's what the marketing tells you. But the reality is that the buyers in the U.K. of vehicles at this price point are predominantly white, over 55s. Hence my hyperbolic post.

I think this is right. Those in the younger generation that have the disposable income to think about this price point predominantly live in central London, where there's just no point in having a sports car. There haven't been yuppies driving guards red 911s around the city for a very long time. The presence of the Arab contingent in the summer doesn't change this.

There's a whole world of affluent 40-somethings outside London

I'm 34, and in Hampshire

Plenty of my friends around my age buying F-Types and 911's.

Exactly!

[NickCQ]

Ares said:

NickCQ said:

DonkeyApple said:

That's what the marketing tells you. But the reality is that the buyers in the U.K. of vehicles at this price point are predominantly white, over 55s. Hence my hyperbolic post.

I think this is right. Those in the younger generation that have the disposable income to think about this price point predominantly live in central London, where there's just no point in having a sports car. There haven't been yuppies driving guards red 911s around the city for a very long time. The presence of the Arab contingent in the summer doesn't change this.

There's a whole world of affluent 40-somethings outside London

Nah, it's just dragons and tracksuits

[AW111]

rtz62 said:

I'd wager that if this bore a Porsche badge on its snout, certain factions on here would be flagellating themselves with a cat o'nine tails made of their own pubic hair in an effort not to go come over all gushing about it.
It's British, let's slate it, seems to be the premise of some of the posts on here.
Well how about waiting for the first real road tests by PH, Autocar etc and then set about dissecting the results?

That relates to what I wrote earlier.
I hope and expect it will drive very well, but so far we only have TVR's word on that.

[anonymous-user]

dxg said:

I genuinely don;t think you can call the tvr chassis cutting edge in terms of the material technologies.

It's not really cutting edge in terms of the production technique, either.

What it is, however, is affordable for smaller production lines because it avoids the need for much tooling...


Also, they do keep going on about how istream can accommodate carbon tubes instead of steel. Doesn't say anything about how they're joined...

Whilst neither spaceframe nor flat panel composites are new I can't think of a car that's used this combo before. Lister storm did something similar iirc with al honeycomb. It's not clever just because tooling costs are low, they were for the original griff too; It's clever because it's a compromise between expensive carbon monocoque and cheap spaceframe that I'm going to hazard a guess approaches the performance of the former closer to the cost of the latter. I wonder how automated the spaceframe manufacture is planned to be.

[bertie]

fblm said:

dxg said:

I genuinely don;t think you can call the tvr chassis cutting edge in terms of the material technologies.

It's not really cutting edge in terms of the production technique, either.

What it is, however, is affordable for smaller production lines because it avoids the need for much tooling...


Also, they do keep going on about how istream can accommodate carbon tubes instead of steel. Doesn't say anything about how they're joined...

Whilst neither spaceframe nor flat panel composites are new I can't think of a car that's used this combo before. Lister storm did something similar iirc with al honeycomb. It's not clever just because tooling costs are low, they were for the original griff too; It's clever because it's a compromise between expensive carbon monocoque and cheap spaceframe that I'm going to hazard a guess approaches the performance of the former closer to the cost of the latter. I wonder how automated the spaceframe manufacture is planned to be.

The video running in the background shows what looks like some glass fibre with a honeycomb core being sprayed with resin and formed in some tooling.

That's not a technique I've seen before if that's how the panes are made.

[anonymous-user]

bertie said:

The video running in the background shows what looks like some glass fibre with a honeycomb core being sprayed with resin and formed in some tooling.

That's not a technique I've seen before if that's how the panes are made.

Haven't seen the video but I think the panels are an aluminium honeycomb in CF sandwich.

[StottyGTR]

fblm said:

bertie said:

The video running in the background shows what looks like some glass fibre with a honeycomb core being sprayed with resin and formed in some tooling.

That's not a technique I've seen before if that's how the panes are made.

Haven't seen the video but I think the panels are an aluminium honeycomb in CF sandwich.

koenigsegg are the only company I've heard using aluminium honeycomb covered by CF. Mr Koenigsegg himself speaks very highly of it.

[Sway]

StottyGTR said:

fblm said:

bertie said:

The video running in the background shows what looks like some glass fibre with a honeycomb core being sprayed with resin and formed in some tooling.

That's not a technique I've seen before if that's how the panes are made.

Haven't seen the video but I think the panels are an aluminium honeycomb in CF sandwich.

koenigsegg are the only company I've heard using aluminium honeycomb covered by CF. Mr Koenigsegg himself speaks very highly of it.

It's not particularly unusual... Internal structures can be aluminium, paper, plastic and many more materials depending on intended outcome.

The only really innovative composite process I've seen recently is Mclaren's - yes the tooling is pricey, but the reduction in overall cost and cycle time is very impressive.

Actually, thinking about it, I was also impressed by an approach that used a statically charged substrate to spray recycled chopped composite fibre onto, which was then sprayed with epoxy and vac bagged. Struggling to remember who was using it - perhaps a rowing or kayak company...

[unpc]

fblm said:

I've got a Masters degree in Manufacturing Engineering so I have some knowledge of DFA/M. What I don't understand is how iStream is different or why it is 'revolutionary' or 'radical'. I'm genuinely interested but everything I've read is marketing fluff. You mention Yamaha; interestingly back in the late 90's the textbook example of DFA done right was the '92 Honda Fireblade... what goes round comes round maybe?

I'm an engineer too (automotive ) and I said the same thing on the other thread. Can't see anything new other than some marketing BS.

[anonymous-user]

fblm said:

Whilst neither spaceframe nor flat panel composites are new I can't think of a car that's used this combo before.

Repair costs after an accident may be tricky. There was a time when Lotus bonded fibreglass bodies onto steel chassis - repair was a nightmare.

fblm said:

I wonder how automated the spaceframe manufacture is planned to be?

I expect initial cars are built by humans on a jig - and a robot trained to do it on the same jig later. If they get organised the robot will be able to select and position tubes as well as doing the actual welds. That brace over the engine bay must logically bolt on later in production.

[anonymous-user]

StottyGTR said:

I'm liking the Griffith more and more each day, I am wondering though, if it does 200mph+ with 480hp it must be an extremely low drag design. This would lead me to believe it hasn't much downforce, I'd like to see some numbers on this!

The drag coefficient of the car will determine the compromise on top speed and downforce, the basic shape is fundamentally low downforce/low drag compared to a racing car. All they need is to have a nice balance that removes lift to make a nice car to drive.

To give you an idea of how this works, an early 80's F1 car with 520BHP will pull 170MPH with a CD of 0.9

A Ferrari F40 has a CD of 0.34, has 480BHP and a top speed of 197MPH

I would expect the TVR to be in the high 0.2's CD so cracking 200MPH should be on with the power available without too much trouble.

[NJH]

fblm said:

dxg said:

I genuinely don;t think you can call the tvr chassis cutting edge in terms of the material technologies.

It's not really cutting edge in terms of the production technique, either.

What it is, however, is affordable for smaller production lines because it avoids the need for much tooling...


Also, they do keep going on about how istream can accommodate carbon tubes instead of steel. Doesn't say anything about how they're joined...

Whilst neither spaceframe nor flat panel composites are new I can't think of a car that's used this combo before. Lister storm did something similar iirc with al honeycomb. It's not clever just because tooling costs are low, they were for the original griff too; It's clever because it's a compromise between expensive carbon monocoque and cheap spaceframe that I'm going to hazard a guess approaches the performance of the former closer to the cost of the latter. I wonder how automated the spaceframe manufacture is planned to be.

Hasn't Tim Duffee been building Darrian/Davrian rally cars like this for many years from his place deep in Wales? Never looked at one in detail but remember many years ago reading an article claiming he used FRP over space frame filled with foam to get loads more stiffness for low cost/complexity.

[NJH]

fblm said:

Edited to add for comedy value... an old Griff/Chim chassis...

Edited by fblm on Thursday 14th September 23:44

This is a reminder that I hope the new car has proper modern crash protection, besides the crazy looks and loud exhaust of TVRs of old I always had the feeling that crashing one wouldn't end well for the occupants, especially side impacts.

[DonkeyApple]

Ares said:

DonkeyApple said:

Ares said:

I'd say you are wildly wrong on the £90k/65+ comment.

What the £90k buyer does want though is perceived value for money (and to a degree, status), and the bulk of them don't want a raw 'it might kill you' kind go car. They want super performance thrills, but then to be able to sit in traffic, HQ audio playing, on the school run. They want to know it starts every morning, and get to 99.9% of it's destinations.

It's the reason why the 911 will outstrip TVRs 1000:1...and the reason why the Boxster/Cayman will outstrip the Lotus, M3 will outstrip the Alfa QV, S63 will outstrip DB11...etc etc. To some it is just 'sheep' mentality, but there is rationale behind it.

That's what the marketing tells you. But the reality is that the buyers in the U.K. of vehicles at this price point are predominantly white, over 55s. Hence my hyperbolic post.

It's just based on the drivers I see of them, and round here thats a lot. Ditto in London.

55+ is closer, but I know a hell of a lot of owners of c£90k sports cars in their 40s, and younger.

It'll be skewed in places of high wealth such as London but the fact remains that cars at this level are predominantly bought by older men. As is everything of significant value in the U.K. as it is the post 55 demographic who hold the bulk of the wealth.

[DonkeyApple]

StottyGTR said:

fblm said:

bertie said:

The video running in the background shows what looks like some glass fibre with a honeycomb core being sprayed with resin and formed in some tooling.

That's not a technique I've seen before if that's how the panes are made.

Haven't seen the video but I think the panels are an aluminium honeycomb in CF sandwich.

koenigsegg are the only company I've heard using aluminium honeycomb covered by CF. Mr Koenigsegg himself speaks very highly of it.

Have you heard of a company called TVr? They were doing this back in the late 90s.

[DonkeyApple]

Dr Interceptor said:

Ares said:

NickCQ said:

DonkeyApple said:

That's what the marketing tells you. But the reality is that the buyers in the U.K. of vehicles at this price point are predominantly white, over 55s. Hence my hyperbolic post.

I think this is right. Those in the younger generation that have the disposable income to think about this price point predominantly live in central London, where there's just no point in having a sports car. There haven't been yuppies driving guards red 911s around the city for a very long time. The presence of the Arab contingent in the summer doesn't change this.

There's a whole world of affluent 40-somethings outside London

I'm 34, and in Hampshire

Plenty of my friends around my age buying F-Types and 911's.

Funny that. What with Hampshire being one of the wealthiest counties in the U.K.

[StottyGTR]

jsf said:

StottyGTR said:

I'm liking the Griffith more and more each day, I am wondering though, if it does 200mph+ with 480hp it must be an extremely low drag design. This would lead me to believe it hasn't much downforce, I'd like to see some numbers on this!

The drag coefficient of the car will determine the compromise on top speed and downforce, the basic shape is fundamentally low downforce/low drag compared to a racing car. All they need is to have a nice balance that removes lift to make a nice car to drive.

To give you an idea of how this works, an early 80's F1 car with 520BHP will pull 170MPH with a CD of 0.9

A Ferrari F40 has a CD of 0.34, has 480BHP and a top speed of 197MPH

I would expect the TVR to be in the high 0.2's CD so cracking 200MPH should be on with the power available without too much trouble.

I agree, I expect it to be high 0.2* as you well know as a rule of thumb more downforce = more drag, this is how I'm reaching my conclusion that I expect the TVR to be low downforce. At this performance level I'd expect this means it won't set the world alight with lap times, although I really wish it would!

I've heard bits and bats about the aero aiding stability, with the cars low weight I imagine high speed stability is a bit of an issue, so fair enough if the aero focus' on stability and drag reduction.

Maybe they'll develop a hardcore version with some canards a splitter and a wing