Have we got it all wrong? Are cars too fast now?
Discussion
av185 said:
Imo many that are into the 'great days' of many overrated so called classics conveniently forget the shortcomings of such cars.
Most are fine chugging away at 25mph en route to the pub on a summer afternoon in the summer, but for any serious rewarding driving or undertaking a journey of any length, they are often a joke.
Admittedly the handling, braking and acceleration are unlikely to be as refined as a modern car but they are often far from being a joke - in the right hands of course, not all drivers have the finesse to drive an old car well and master its 'shortcomings'Most are fine chugging away at 25mph en route to the pub on a summer afternoon in the summer, but for any serious rewarding driving or undertaking a journey of any length, they are often a joke.
Lol at the contradictions is this thread.
People are saying cars are too fast then saying an ideal car would be around a tonne and have 400bhp, or a car that does 0-60 in 4-5 seconds. A golf r does it in about 4.5 yet people winge about it.
Make your bloody mind up.
I personally have a fiesta st with 215bhp, 236 lb ft of torque, weighs not much over a tonne and does 60 in about 6.4 seconds. It would be a bit quicker to 60 but needs 3 gears to get there.
For me this car has about the perfect amount if power, i hardly get to enjoy all the power on offer with that much never mind more, 30 to 75mph on a motorway slip road is pretty damn rapid.
People are saying cars are too fast then saying an ideal car would be around a tonne and have 400bhp, or a car that does 0-60 in 4-5 seconds. A golf r does it in about 4.5 yet people winge about it.
Make your bloody mind up.
I personally have a fiesta st with 215bhp, 236 lb ft of torque, weighs not much over a tonne and does 60 in about 6.4 seconds. It would be a bit quicker to 60 but needs 3 gears to get there.
For me this car has about the perfect amount if power, i hardly get to enjoy all the power on offer with that much never mind more, 30 to 75mph on a motorway slip road is pretty damn rapid.
Edited by dieseluser07 on Monday 11th September 07:53
av185 said:
Imo many that are into the 'great days' of many overrated so called classics conveniently forget the shortcomings of such cars.
Most are fine chugging away at 25mph en route to the pub on a summer afternoon in the summer, but for any serious rewarding driving or undertaking a journey of any length, they are often a joke.
Idiosyncracies are often seen as being characterful.....questionable reasoning at best.
Like the steam engine, evocative arriving at the station, but most end up in museums for a reason so that 'enthusiasts' can reminisce over the fantastic days of steam
Complete twaddle - plenty of classics well able to handle continental tours, motorway speeds and some track laps. Would the trip be as dull as in a modern, no. Does it require more planning and maintenance - yes.Most are fine chugging away at 25mph en route to the pub on a summer afternoon in the summer, but for any serious rewarding driving or undertaking a journey of any length, they are often a joke.
Idiosyncracies are often seen as being characterful.....questionable reasoning at best.
Like the steam engine, evocative arriving at the station, but most end up in museums for a reason so that 'enthusiasts' can reminisce over the fantastic days of steam
The most rewarding driving I do is in a classic and usually on a long journey.
Basil Brush said:
Monkeylegend said:
2 door coupe, RWD, loud V8, 500bhp ish, manual, minimal electronic aids, quirky interior, brutish exterior, small volume.
Just need somebody to build something like that.
Order the TVR Griffith?Just need somebody to build something like that.
I had a '98 500, the new one mostly looks ok to my eyes but doesn't shout TVR in the same way the original cars do, so the jury is out for me at the moment.
Just because you have a fast car does not mean you have to drive fast.
There is a sense of satisfaction knowing that your car has been engineered to drive fast will also mean that it will also stop quickly and handle well.
I bought a new Subaru WRX STi knowing that it will blast most cars off the road without breaking sweat but I don't drive like that because I don't need to prove anything.
If the opportunity arises for an overtake or a motorway slip at speed then I can enjoy the performance and traction the car has.
I don't need a classic car to experience this either.
There is a sense of satisfaction knowing that your car has been engineered to drive fast will also mean that it will also stop quickly and handle well.
I bought a new Subaru WRX STi knowing that it will blast most cars off the road without breaking sweat but I don't drive like that because I don't need to prove anything.
If the opportunity arises for an overtake or a motorway slip at speed then I can enjoy the performance and traction the car has.
I don't need a classic car to experience this either.
PK0001 said:
Just because you have a fast car does not mean you have to drive fast.
As most cars can exceed 70mph one could argue e.g. a basic Fiat Punto is 'too fast' for the road.Speed is all relative.
Agree with what you say about not HAVING to drive fast just because you are in a rapid car. It is as much about the sense of occasion and satisfaction driving a beautifully engineered and capable vehicle and just because a rapid driver focused supercar is not driven constantly at ten tenths does not automatically mean its driving enjoyment for the enthusiast is diluted. My new 911 GT2 RS will do 210 mph and 0 to 60 in 2.6 seconds. 700 bhp. Doesn't mean you have to use all this performance ALL the time.
The other aspect to this is that such cars are nowhere near their limits in most legal and road going situations. Consequently they are often the safest vehicles on our roads. Simpler to get out of trouble in a dangerous situation too.
The numpties at Brake take note btw.
:
Edited by av185 on Monday 11th September 11:28
Jumpingjackflash said:
Good morning,
I am a current 12c owner and have owned all the usual suspects.
It has got to the point now when I'm driving on UK roads I am sh**ing myself giving the car the beans.
100MPH arrives far far too soon and you can not red line after second gear which is frustrating. The police are hiding everywhere because motorists are easy targets which helps the police with their targets (I have inside knowledge).
Track days are expensive and the scenery is not as good.
Maybe the chase for more power, faster, bigger, wider and louder is all wrong?
Fellow 12C owner and have a different mindset to yourself I have to say.I am a current 12c owner and have owned all the usual suspects.
It has got to the point now when I'm driving on UK roads I am sh**ing myself giving the car the beans.
100MPH arrives far far too soon and you can not red line after second gear which is frustrating. The police are hiding everywhere because motorists are easy targets which helps the police with their targets (I have inside knowledge).
Track days are expensive and the scenery is not as good.
Maybe the chase for more power, faster, bigger, wider and louder is all wrong?
If you're in full control of your right foot you should never get to the point of "s
tting yourself".If you are to that point I'd suggest 'downgrading' as soon as possible to something with far less torque/power.
You do have a point though - because in the 12C, if you want, the high speed figures race up in no time. If you are used to this then it all becomes quite predictable and expectantly controllable. But if you are finding that the acceleration is a shock and you feel its not within your scope of control, then surely 'downgrade' to a level that you are comfortable with.
I wouldn't say that cars are too fast, because everyone's ability is different and people wish to derive different aspects of driving from cars than others.
The issue for me is if the power/torque delivery is controllable or not.
If for example you pout foot to the floor and the car is wanting to always shoot off at an angle then this is not a safe car.
Or if the power/torque delivery of the car is very binary with application of the accelerator then again I'd say this is unsafe for road use.
But in general factory spec high performance cars have been through all the safety aspects and it then left to the driver as to how much of the car's potential is let loose on the roads. A sensible driver will be safe, a bell-end will likely find him/her self in jail.
p.s. trackdays are not that bad to be honest.
Tyres, insurance, brake wear etc. etc. does add up, but surely you bought your 12C to see what it can do?
I've taken mine to the Nurburgring a couple of times and also round Donnington and Silverstone. On track you can unleash the lateral grip and have some fun that would put you in jail if on the road
av185 said:
....As most cars can exceed 70mph one could argue e.g. a basic Fiat Punto is 'too fast' for the road....
But it takes a very long time to reach full speed and a car needs to be able to pick up speed with the flow of traffic.A car with an engine of low enough power to limit it to 70-75mph would probably take 20s to reach 60mph from a standstill and overtaking even a tractor would be a risky, if not impossible manoeuvre.
I can't speak from experience of driving cars with 12C standard performance...
But I have two cars, a Z4 and a Shogun Pinin LWB. And I'm starting to prefer the Shogun... I can go anywhere, it surprisingly gets up to road legal speeds fast enough, as a 6'5 guy, it's way comfier than the cramped Z4... so yeah, at 22 I've realised already speed isn't everything.
I love both cars, and they both have pro's and con's. But speed certainly isn't that important!
But I have two cars, a Z4 and a Shogun Pinin LWB. And I'm starting to prefer the Shogun... I can go anywhere, it surprisingly gets up to road legal speeds fast enough, as a 6'5 guy, it's way comfier than the cramped Z4... so yeah, at 22 I've realised already speed isn't everything.
I love both cars, and they both have pro's and con's. But speed certainly isn't that important!
J4CKO said:
Yipper said:
Think a lot depends on age. Older folk over 40 don't really have the reactions to work superfast cars on everyday roads. Whereas, if you're 30 and have superfast reactions, you can rag 1000bhp, no probs.
Yes, this is why insurance on fast cars is much cheaper for those under 40..
S100HP said:
:Laugh:
Can't recall the last time I saw a police car, let alone a speed trap.
I think what you meant to say is "Can't recall the last time I saw a marked police car".Can't recall the last time I saw a police car, let alone a speed trap.
Up here (Leeds and surrounding areas) there are loads of unmarked police cars (there's even a thread for them on the Yorkshire section of this forum).
I guess the question you should be asking yourself is "do I feel lucky?"...
I've seen several folk 'pulled' by unmarked cars as well.
TonyRPH said:
I think what you meant to say is "Can't recall the last time I saw a marked police car".
Up here (Leeds and surrounding areas) there are loads of unmarked police cars (there's even a thread for them on the Yorkshire section of this forum).
I guess the question you should be asking yourself is "do I feel lucky?"...
I've seen several folk 'pulled' by unmarked cars as well.
I cover about 20-25k per year in East Anglia and probably a couple of times per week I see an unmarked car having pulled over someone with a warp-speed capable car, often onto an exit slip road. Up here (Leeds and surrounding areas) there are loads of unmarked police cars (there's even a thread for them on the Yorkshire section of this forum).
I guess the question you should be asking yourself is "do I feel lucky?"...
I've seen several folk 'pulled' by unmarked cars as well.
In quite a few cases the unmarked car is an unexpected choice although I can't recall exactly what they were.
cib24 said:
. People are not going to want to buy the new BMW M4 if it only comes with 250bhp compared to 450bhp next year.
Not necessarilly.If say the 250 bhp M4 is far more involving than the 450 bhp model as a drivers car, reverted back to a normally aspirated high revving engine with natural sounds instead of the embarrasingly fake and farty poops etc of the current joke cars turbo engine, had skinnier tyres and fewer electronic driver aids which only serve to flatter crap drivers, it would sell in spades.
Some manufacturers, including Porsche, have recently done this with a number of GT cars with great success.
The less is more ethos CAN work, depending on the car.
TonyRPH said:
I think what you meant to say is "Can't recall the last time I saw a marked police car".
Up here (Leeds and surrounding areas) there are loads of unmarked police cars (there's even a thread for them on the Yorkshire section of this forum).
I guess the question you should be asking yourself is "do I feel lucky?"...
I've seen several folk 'pulled' by unmarked cars as well.
And on one occasion I nearly p!$$£d myself laughing - here's the story:Up here (Leeds and surrounding areas) there are loads of unmarked police cars (there's even a thread for them on the Yorkshire section of this forum).
I guess the question you should be asking yourself is "do I feel lucky?"...
I've seen several folk 'pulled' by unmarked cars as well.
One day on the A14, the road wasn't particularly busy and I was doing about 75 in lane 3, passing a car in lane 2 who was doing about 65 and a lorry in lane 1 doing about 55.
During my 'overtake' of the vehicles in L1 and L2 a motorbike rockets up behind me at very high speed, vastly in excess of 100mph.
The biker then apparently sees the small dashcam in the rear of my car (which also had no dealer stickers in the rear window) and thinks he's just zoomed up behind an unmarked police car or interceptor because as I drop back into L2 he pulls in behind at 70-75mph, shaking his head and hanging his head in shame as if he's expecting the blues to come on.
He then sits behind me for a couple of miles at 70-75, 'waiting' for the blues to come on and the message to come off at a slip road. All the while he's shaking his head and body language suggests he's thinking he's in big trouble. Eventually we split off our separate ways somewhere near the A11/A14 and once he realises he's going a different way and isn't going to get pulled over, he zooms off again where the roads diverge.
Made me laugh. Made my mates laugh too.
dieseluser07 said:
I personally have a fiesta st with 215bhp, 236 lb ft of torque, weighs not much over a tonne and does 60 in about 6.4 seconds. It would be a bit quicker to 60 but needs 3 gears to get there.
For me this car has about the perfect amount if power, i hardly get to enjoy all the power on offer with that much never mind more, 30 to 75mph on a motorway slip road is pretty damn rapid.
After a long boys' weekend enjoying the best roads Wales has yet to offer, we decided the Fiesta ST is probably the ideal choice for this sort of driving. Any more power is basically redundant, as was demonstrated when my 180bhp was mostly enough to keep up with Porsches with double the horses. 30-70 and 50-90 are the ley metrics in terms of speed, but cornering ability and fun even more important.For me this car has about the perfect amount if power, i hardly get to enjoy all the power on offer with that much never mind more, 30 to 75mph on a motorway slip road is pretty damn rapid.
Edited by dieseluser07 on Monday 11th September 07:53
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