Have we got it all wrong? Are cars too fast now?
Discussion
I think the biggest problem is that people are scared.
I'm sure, without a shadow of a doubt, that the vast majority of people on Pistonheads would get more enjoyment, more of the time, out of an Elise, Caterham, Westfield or something of that ilk with sub-200bhp than they would out of a 600bhp monster. Unfortunately, this is Pistonheads and countless threads over the last few years have shown that people are terrified of being overtaken by a diesel hatchback. Therefore, to 'beat' the diesel hatchback they need more power, more torque, wider tyres and more electronics, all to feed insecurity at the real cost of enjoyment.
This has spiralled out of control for quite some time.
You don't have to agree with this post. That's just my perception.
I'm sure, without a shadow of a doubt, that the vast majority of people on Pistonheads would get more enjoyment, more of the time, out of an Elise, Caterham, Westfield or something of that ilk with sub-200bhp than they would out of a 600bhp monster. Unfortunately, this is Pistonheads and countless threads over the last few years have shown that people are terrified of being overtaken by a diesel hatchback. Therefore, to 'beat' the diesel hatchback they need more power, more torque, wider tyres and more electronics, all to feed insecurity at the real cost of enjoyment.
This has spiralled out of control for quite some time.
You don't have to agree with this post. That's just my perception.
Rawwr said:
I think the biggest problem is that people are scared.
I'm sure, without a shadow of a doubt, that the vast majority of people on Pistonheads would get more enjoyment, more of the time, out of an Elise, Caterham, Westfield or something of that ilk with sub-200bhp than they would out of a 600bhp monster. Unfortunately, this is Pistonheads and countless threads over the last few years have shown that people are terrified of being overtaken by a diesel hatchback. Therefore, to 'beat' the diesel hatchback they need more power, more torque, wider tyres and more electronics, all to feed insecurity at the real cost of enjoyment.
This has spiralled out of control for quite some time.
You don't have to agree with this post. That's just my perception.
No nail-head smiley, will this do? I'm sure, without a shadow of a doubt, that the vast majority of people on Pistonheads would get more enjoyment, more of the time, out of an Elise, Caterham, Westfield or something of that ilk with sub-200bhp than they would out of a 600bhp monster. Unfortunately, this is Pistonheads and countless threads over the last few years have shown that people are terrified of being overtaken by a diesel hatchback. Therefore, to 'beat' the diesel hatchback they need more power, more torque, wider tyres and more electronics, all to feed insecurity at the real cost of enjoyment.
This has spiralled out of control for quite some time.
You don't have to agree with this post. That's just my perception.
- I suspect there is some truth in that.But then my solution is BRZ (and classics)
Rawwr said:
I think the biggest problem is that people are scared.
I'm sure, without a shadow of a doubt, that the vast majority of people on Pistonheads would get more enjoyment, more of the time, out of an Elise, Caterham, Westfield or something of that ilk with sub-200bhp than they would out of a 600bhp monster. Unfortunately, this is Pistonheads and countless threads over the last few years have shown that people are terrified of being overtaken by a diesel hatchback. Therefore, to 'beat' the diesel hatchback they need more power, more torque, wider tyres and more electronics, all to feed insecurity at the real cost of enjoyment.
This has spiralled out of control for quite some time.
You don't have to agree with this post. That's just my perception.
I have a similar view.... And I'm starting to think that "enthusiasts" cars like RS6, S3, Golf R, M4 etc. are actually turning people off performance cars as they are so refined and so competent.... I bought an M3 years ago as I thought it would be a good compromise between a usable car and a sports car and I felt having several cars often left me in the wrong car at the wrong time (So a sporty do everything has to be better). It really, really wasn't a sports car and these current cars are much faster, easier to drive, far more refined and loads more remote.... People are starting to think that cars aren't fun because these ultra competent Dual Clutch cars are dull unless you're pushing very hard which you just cant drive like that on the roads. And even then, its not the engaged / feelsome fun that most people seem to want, its fun from the outright pace.I'm sure, without a shadow of a doubt, that the vast majority of people on Pistonheads would get more enjoyment, more of the time, out of an Elise, Caterham, Westfield or something of that ilk with sub-200bhp than they would out of a 600bhp monster. Unfortunately, this is Pistonheads and countless threads over the last few years have shown that people are terrified of being overtaken by a diesel hatchback. Therefore, to 'beat' the diesel hatchback they need more power, more torque, wider tyres and more electronics, all to feed insecurity at the real cost of enjoyment.
This has spiralled out of control for quite some time.
You don't have to agree with this post. That's just my perception.
Its a bit ironic, but I think it may be true.
or a BMW Diesel.Hungrymc said:
And I'm starting to think that "enthusiasts" cars like RS6, S3, Golf R, M4 etc
This post is going to sit like a turd in a punch bowl but I don't actually deem any of those cars to be enthusiasts cars. I just see them as fast cars. I'm sure the owners are very enthusiastic about them but that doesn't necessarily make them motoring enthusiasts.Hungrymc said:
Rawwr said:
I think the biggest problem is that people are scared.
I'm sure, without a shadow of a doubt, that the vast majority of people on Pistonheads would get more enjoyment, more of the time, out of an Elise, Caterham, Westfield or something of that ilk with sub-200bhp than they would out of a 600bhp monster. Unfortunately, this is Pistonheads and countless threads over the last few years have shown that people are terrified of being overtaken by a diesel hatchback. Therefore, to 'beat' the diesel hatchback they need more power, more torque, wider tyres and more electronics, all to feed insecurity at the real cost of enjoyment.
This has spiralled out of control for quite some time.
You don't have to agree with this post. That's just my perception.
I have a similar view.... And I'm starting to think that "enthusiasts" cars like RS6, S3, Golf R, M4 etc. are actually turning people off performance cars as they are so refined and so competent.... I bought an M3 years ago as I thought it would be a good compromise between a usable car and a sports car and I felt having several cars often left me in the wrong car at the wrong time (So a sporty do everything has to be better). It really, really wasn't a sports car and these current cars are much faster, easier to drive, far more refined and loads more remote.... People are starting to think that cars aren't fun because these ultra competent Dual Clutch cars are dull unless you're pushing very hard which you just cant drive like that on the roads. And even then, its not the engaged / feelsome fun that most people seem to want, its fun from the outright pace.I'm sure, without a shadow of a doubt, that the vast majority of people on Pistonheads would get more enjoyment, more of the time, out of an Elise, Caterham, Westfield or something of that ilk with sub-200bhp than they would out of a 600bhp monster. Unfortunately, this is Pistonheads and countless threads over the last few years have shown that people are terrified of being overtaken by a diesel hatchback. Therefore, to 'beat' the diesel hatchback they need more power, more torque, wider tyres and more electronics, all to feed insecurity at the real cost of enjoyment.
This has spiralled out of control for quite some time.
You don't have to agree with this post. That's just my perception.
Its a bit ironic, but I think it may be true.
I think it's a question of what you enjoy. I do find it frustrating that you often have to buy a grippy, powerful and expensive car to get decent handling, but that doesn't always have to be the case if you look around. For a weekend car, Caterham and Lotus offer modest performance models with all the handling of their faster counterparts, and I'm sure they always will. For a daily driver, BMW will sell you a 116d on their smallest tyres with the suspension from a 140i M Sport if you want it, or you could go aftermarket with something like a Birds kit, which is what I've done.
Edited by RobM77 on Monday 11th September 14:30
dannyDC2 said:
Leins said:
For me, about 200bhp and not too much weight is the sweet-spot for UK/Irish road fun driving
This. 
Love my E36 328i. Could be lighter, but a locked diff keeps it fun.
I owned an E36 328i sport for a while (and an E36 325i SE) and I agree - it was just about the perfect mix of handling, performance and grip for all round use. However, I reckon if you get a new ~200bhp 2 series with either M Sport or Birds suspension and the smallest wheel and tyre option then it wouldn't be far off the 328i.Edited by RobM77 on Monday 11th September 14:50
av185 said:
Not necessarilly.
If say the 250 bhp M4 is far more involving than the 450 bhp model as a drivers car, reverted back to a normally aspirated high revving engine with natural sounds instead of the embarrasingly fake and farty poops etc of the current joke cars turbo engine, had skinnier tyres and fewer electronic driver aids which only serve to flatter crap drivers, it would sell in spades.
Some manufacturers, including Porsche, have recently done this with a number of GT cars with great success.
The less is more ethos CAN work, depending on the car.
Try telling that to Toyota/Subaru.If say the 250 bhp M4 is far more involving than the 450 bhp model as a drivers car, reverted back to a normally aspirated high revving engine with natural sounds instead of the embarrasingly fake and farty poops etc of the current joke cars turbo engine, had skinnier tyres and fewer electronic driver aids which only serve to flatter crap drivers, it would sell in spades.
Some manufacturers, including Porsche, have recently done this with a number of GT cars with great success.
The less is more ethos CAN work, depending on the car.
People would not spend £55k+ on a 250bhp M4. They would just buy another 400+bhp car instead.
If you reduce the M4 to 250bhp, you have to reduce the BHP of the 440i, 435d and 430d accordingly. If you lower them, you have to reduce the output of the 420 and 418.
Let's face it, it's nonsense.
janesmith1950 said:
av185 said:
Not necessarilly.
If say the 250 bhp M4 is far more involving than the 450 bhp model as a drivers car, reverted back to a normally aspirated high revving engine with natural sounds instead of the embarrasingly fake and farty poops etc of the current joke cars turbo engine, had skinnier tyres and fewer electronic driver aids which only serve to flatter crap drivers, it would sell in spades.
Some manufacturers, including Porsche, have recently done this with a number of GT cars with great success.
The less is more ethos CAN work, depending on the car.
Try telling that to Toyota/Subaru.If say the 250 bhp M4 is far more involving than the 450 bhp model as a drivers car, reverted back to a normally aspirated high revving engine with natural sounds instead of the embarrasingly fake and farty poops etc of the current joke cars turbo engine, had skinnier tyres and fewer electronic driver aids which only serve to flatter crap drivers, it would sell in spades.
Some manufacturers, including Porsche, have recently done this with a number of GT cars with great success.
The less is more ethos CAN work, depending on the car.
People would not spend £55k+ on a 250bhp M4. They would just buy another 400+bhp car instead.
If you reduce the M4 to 250bhp, you have to reduce the BHP of the 440i, 435d and 430d accordingly. If you lower them, you have to reduce the output of the 420 and 418.
Let's face it, it's nonsense.
Rawwr said:
Hungrymc said:
And I'm starting to think that "enthusiasts" cars like RS6, S3, Golf R, M4 etc
This post is going to sit like a turd in a punch bowl but I don't actually deem any of those cars to be enthusiasts cars. I just see them as fast cars. I'm sure the owners are very enthusiastic about them but that doesn't necessarily make them motoring enthusiasts.Agree, they're the antithesis of enthusiasts cars imo. PH favourites of course!
I'm very late in replying to this thread, because I'm 44 and my reaction time is awful. It's 4:45 and i'm only just thinking about breakfast!
Anyway, yes, cars are too fast to extract their maximum potential on most UK roads, without A getting stopped, B getting a mouthful of hedge/tree, or C everyone thinking you're a tw8t.
So that McLaren purchase looks daft now doesn't it.
Anyway, yes, cars are too fast to extract their maximum potential on most UK roads, without A getting stopped, B getting a mouthful of hedge/tree, or C everyone thinking you're a tw8t.
So that McLaren purchase looks daft now doesn't it.
CABC said:
Rawwr said:
Hungrymc said:
And I'm starting to think that "enthusiasts" cars like RS6, S3, Golf R, M4 etc
This post is going to sit like a turd in a punch bowl but I don't actually deem any of those cars to be enthusiasts cars. I just see them as fast cars. I'm sure the owners are very enthusiastic about them but that doesn't necessarily make them motoring enthusiasts.Agree, they're the antithesis of enthusiasts cars imo. PH favourites of course!
This post is going to sit like a turd in a punch bowl but I don't actually deem any of those cars to be enthusiasts cars. I just see them as fast cars. I'm sure the owners are very enthusiastic about them but that doesn't necessarily make them motoring enthusiasts.
Great analogy ! Loving that one . I reckon enthusiasts cars can be anything that takes there fancy , must be 'clubs' and car meets for all types of vehicles , from 2CV to Aston Martin
Hungrymc said:
CABC said:
Rawwr said:
Hungrymc said:
And I'm starting to think that "enthusiasts" cars like RS6, S3, Golf R, M4 etc
This post is going to sit like a turd in a punch bowl but I don't actually deem any of those cars to be enthusiasts cars. I just see them as fast cars. I'm sure the owners are very enthusiastic about them but that doesn't necessarily make them motoring enthusiasts.Agree, they're the antithesis of enthusiasts cars imo. PH favourites of course!
As I think I said before, we're all into different things. My personal interest is handling and I'm not bothered about performance, not in a road car anyway. However, yes, that's a niche within a niche, even on Pistonheads.RobM77 said:
I think that sums it up: the M4 is seen as the top of the range 4 series, rather than the 'motorsport', 'performance' or 'handling' model. Following on from my post above, it'll come as no surprise that I'd buy an M4 built along the lines of the GT86, however I suspect I'm in a minority. As I said above though, thankfully, a minority of cars are built for people like us. If you want a 250bhp M3, then you can just buy a 250bhp BMW with M Sport suspension and you won't be far off; if you want to take things a stage further there are a range of suspension and diff options available aftermarket, either as add ons, or as a complete car from various well known tuners.
So why dont you get a GT86 then?Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff