RE: New Audi RS4 - Frankfurt 2017

[PowerEnhancer]

Ares said:

You've driven Audis. I've never used an Audi auto gearbox that I liked.

Go and try the ZF8 in the Alfa QV. It's as good as and DCT/PDK, and better as an all rounder.

Your assumption is incorrect. As an exclusive distributor for transmissions fluids including a brand that supplies over 90% of EU DCT fluids, VAG, BMW, Porsche, Mclaren etc., and who works closely with and supplies fluids to transmission workshops including those involved in R&D; I have had the privilege of driving many ZF equipped vehicles. The Audi's were just personal cars.

Again, a torque converter automatic will never be quicker, smoother or as crisp than a modern, well-polished DCT except for one that is well worn. DCT’s are simply more fragile and thus more prone to high-torque related issues. No software will make a ZF8HP outperform the VAG 7 speed DCT. It is mechanically impossible with current technology.

[Ares]

PowerEnhancer said:

Ares said:

You've driven Audis. I've never used an Audi auto gearbox that I liked.

Go and try the ZF8 in the Alfa QV. It's as good as and DCT/PDK, and better as an all rounder.

Your assumption is incorrect. As an exclusive distributor for transmissions fluids including a brand that supplies over 90% of EU DCT fluids, VAG, BMW, Porsche, Mclaren etc., and who works closely with and supplies fluids to transmission workshops including those involved in R&D; I have had the privilege of driving many ZF equipped vehicles. The Audi's were just personal cars.

Again, a torque converter automatic will never be quicker, smoother or as crisp than a modern, well-polished DCT except for one that is well worn. DCT’s are simply more fragile and thus more prone to high-torque related issues. No software will make a ZF8HP outperform the VAG 7 speed DCT. It is mechanically impossible with current technology.

Again....
Not an assumption, practical experience.
Never said superior
Go and drive the ZF box in the QV, ideally back to back with a DCT/PDK/STronic car

[Dave Hedgehog]

Ares said:

With the RS4's competitors now boasting 500bhp (M3 aside, but that's being replaced 2018/19) and turning the wick up on thrills, I hope this is enough.

Not sure where the Audi 90 inspiration sits though?

500bhp will be along, the latest germanic 'thing' is to release a car then charge 10k for the 'performance' version that has the de-restricted engine

the 90 inspiration is in the audi logo, its pretty dull looking for an RS, like the RS3

80k EU before options ..... they're on crack

[Ares]

Dave Hedgehog said:

Ares said:

With the RS4's competitors now boasting 500bhp (M3 aside, but that's being replaced 2018/19) and turning the wick up on thrills, I hope this is enough.

Not sure where the Audi 90 inspiration sits though?

500bhp will be along, the latest germanic 'thing' is to release a car then charge 10k for the 'performance' version that has the de-restricted engine

the 90 inspiration is in the audi logo, its pretty dull looking for an RS, like the RS3

80k EU before options ..... they're on crack

Yes, but there was a time when Audi led....not merely followed (4 years after).

[PowerEnhancer]

Ares said:

PowerEnhancer said:

Ares said:

You've driven Audis. I've never used an Audi auto gearbox that I liked.

Go and try the ZF8 in the Alfa QV. It's as good as and DCT/PDK, and better as an all rounder.

Your assumption is incorrect. As an exclusive distributor for transmissions fluids including a brand that supplies over 90% of EU DCT fluids, VAG, BMW, Porsche, Mclaren etc., and who works closely with and supplies fluids to transmission workshops including those involved in R&D; I have had the privilege of driving many ZF equipped vehicles. The Audi's were just personal cars.

Again, a torque converter automatic will never be quicker, smoother or as crisp than a modern, well-polished DCT except for one that is well worn. DCT’s are simply more fragile and thus more prone to high-torque related issues. No software will make a ZF8HP outperform the VAG 7 speed DCT. It is mechanically impossible with current technology.

Again....
Not an assumption, practical experience.
Never said superior
Go and drive the ZF box in the QV, ideally back to back with a DCT/PDK/STronic car

Now you are not making any sense?

You assumed I had only experienced the ZF in Audi's. However you spin it you assumed incorrectly.

"Never said superior." Never said you did.

It is a great transmission in all power variants and much better than the 6HP, but for the last time, it will not outperform the latest Audi 7 speed DCT in pulling away performance, smoothness or speed of gear change.

Back in the day when DCT's clunked and juddered the only advantage was a quick pull away and gear change but now:

1. Pulling away is SIGNIFICANTLY quicker and incredibly smooth like the perfect manual/clutch pull away every time and in tune with the desired amount of throttle that determines the rate of pull away. This is much better than a TC that is constantly trying to creep forward and which relies on a brake release to set off and with an inevitable TC delay when attempting to pull away quickly.

2. Up and down gear changes are crisper to the degree that energy transfer and torque anomalies between the engine and trans, which are then transferred to the chassis, are less.

3. With regards to gear change the ZF 8HP is much faster than its predecessor but DCT’s are still quicker.

Simply put the RS4 change to the ZF is a step back in performance and feel but undoubtedly an improvement in reliability.

[Dave Hedgehog]

PowerEnhancer said:

Simply put the RS4 change to the ZF is a step back in performance and feel but undoubtedly an improvement in reliability.

totally agree with this

for most owners the ZF will be a better option being smother and offering a better ride for driver and passangers, i find them dull, i love the savage performance of audi's latest twin clutch

[Wills2]

In my experience 80,000 miles with ZF8 and 120,000 miles with MDCT under my belt the DCT is crisper, more urgent and more direct but is prone to the odd jerk and fluffed down change (when in auto) ZF8 is really smooth and quick but lacks the drama and urgency of the DCT.

But again you're into the realm of personal preference with these transmissions a bit like the cars themselves, all great with no bad choices.

[Ares]

PowerEnhancer said:

Ares said:

PowerEnhancer said:

Ares said:

You've driven Audis. I've never used an Audi auto gearbox that I liked.

Go and try the ZF8 in the Alfa QV. It's as good as and DCT/PDK, and better as an all rounder.

Your assumption is incorrect. As an exclusive distributor for transmissions fluids including a brand that supplies over 90% of EU DCT fluids, VAG, BMW, Porsche, Mclaren etc., and who works closely with and supplies fluids to transmission workshops including those involved in R&D; I have had the privilege of driving many ZF equipped vehicles. The Audi's were just personal cars.

Again, a torque converter automatic will never be quicker, smoother or as crisp than a modern, well-polished DCT except for one that is well worn. DCT’s are simply more fragile and thus more prone to high-torque related issues. No software will make a ZF8HP outperform the VAG 7 speed DCT. It is mechanically impossible with current technology.

Again....
Not an assumption, practical experience.
Never said superior
Go and drive the ZF box in the QV, ideally back to back with a DCT/PDK/STronic car

Now you are not making any sense?

You assumed I had only experienced the ZF in Audi's. However you spin it you assumed incorrectly.

"Never said superior." Never said you did.

It is a great transmission in all power variants and much better than the 6HP, but for the last time, it will not outperform the latest Audi 7 speed DCT in pulling away performance, smoothness or speed of gear change.

Back in the day when DCT's clunked and juddered the only advantage was a quick pull away and gear change but now:

1. Pulling away is SIGNIFICANTLY quicker and incredibly smooth like the perfect manual/clutch pull away every time and in tune with the desired amount of throttle that determines the rate of pull away. This is much better than a TC that is constantly trying to creep forward and which relies on a brake release to set off and with an inevitable TC delay when attempting to pull away quickly.

2. Up and down gear changes are crisper to the degree that energy transfer and torque anomalies between the engine and trans, which are then transferred to the chassis, are less.

3. With regards to gear change the ZF 8HP is much faster than its predecessor but DCT’s are still quicker.

Simply put the RS4 change to the ZF is a step back in performance and feel but undoubtedly an improvement in reliability.

<facepalm>

I've never said you'd only driven Audis

You said "Again, a torque converter automatic will never be quicker, smoother or as crisp than a modern, well-polished DCT..." - I didn't claim it would be quicker or smoother (although it is)...I just said it could compete.

As I keep saying, go and drive the ZF in the QV. It is a match (or a damned close match) for even the better DCTs. Point proven being that I drove the guy who's 991 GTS I've driven last night, he wouldn't believe it wasn't a DCT/PDK/etc having been driven in the passenger seat.

If pulling away is so "SIGNIFICANTLY" quicker in a DCT, then how does the QV match the M3 on that pull away, even with (and without) the M3's launch control?

Go and drive the ZF in the QV!

[JMF894]

J4CKO said:

Nice car if you can keep hold of it or like meeting chaps with balaclavas and baseball bats in the small hours !

Yep I have a work colleague who had his lifted and torched after breaking into the house to nab the keys................

[anonymous-user]

Ares said:

<facepalm>

I've never said you'd only driven Audis

You said "Again, a torque converter automatic will never be quicker, smoother or as crisp than a modern, well-polished DCT..." - I didn't claim it would be quicker or smoother (although it is)...I just said it could compete.

As I keep saying, go and drive the ZF in the QV. It is a match (or a damned close match) for even the better DCTs. Point proven being that I drove the guy who's 991 GTS I've driven last night, he wouldn't believe it wasn't a DCT/PDK/etc having been driven in the passenger seat.

If pulling away is so "SIGNIFICANTLY" quicker in a DCT, then how does the QV match the M3 on that pull away, even with (and without) the M3's launch control?

Go and drive the ZF in the QV!

I suspect, to be fair, that if the QV had an engine fire, you'd compliment it on having the best heating system on the market.

No shame in that, you love your car.

[Ares]

janesmith1950 said:

I suspect, to be fair, that if the QV had an engine fire, you'd compliment it on having the best heating system on the market.

No shame in that, you love your car.

It has lots of flaws, it wouldn't be Italian if it didn't, but the gearbox is not one of them, and points the way to how good autoboxes are, hence them replacing DCT/PDK in Audi & BMW top flight RS & M cars.

[kmpowell]

Price list announced:

https://www.audi.co.uk/content/dam/audi/production...

With options, my new B8 back in Jan 2015 listed at £61,960. The equivalent spec on the B9 today... £70,670.

[Dave Hedgehog]

kmpowell said:

Price list announced:

https://www.audi.co.uk/content/dam/audi/production...

With options, my new B8 back in Jan 2015 listed at £61,960. The equivalent spec on the B9 today... £70,670.

£72,500 to my spec, LOL @ noggy blue being a massive extra .... may as well get merlin purple

£2k to get black rims ....


audi are on crack

[kmpowell]

So then Ares, what do you make of Audi's announcement yesterday regarding the forthcoming RS6 and RS7 next year...

"The engine will be mated to the latest eight-speed S-tronic gearbox"

Edited by kmpowell on Saturday 23 September 17:35

[F1GTRUeno]

Dave Hedgehog said:

£72,500 to my spec, LOL @ noggy blue being a massive extra .... may as well get merlin purple

£2k to get black rims ....


audi are on crack

It's the people that'll gladly pay it that are on crack. Audi know what they're doing.

[nickfrog]

kmpowell said:

Price list announced:

https://www.audi.co.uk/content/dam/audi/production...

With options, my new B8 back in Jan 2015 listed at £61,960. The equivalent spec on the B9 today... £70,670.

Seems like a smaller increase than £'s fall in value over the same period though.

[TomScrut]

kmpowell said:

So then Ares, what do you make of Audi's announcement yesterday regarding the forthcoming RS6 and RS7 next year...

"The engine will be mated to the latest eight-speed S-tronic gearbox"

Edited by kmpowell on Saturday 23 September 17:35

Well they must have re-engineered it?

Also if you are quoting things at least put a reference where it's coming from.

[cerb4.5lee]

Wills2 said:

For me the n/a V8s in the old RS4/5 or the s65 in the e92 M3 will always give a better experience than the new turbo units. I've no idea what people are talking about when they reference useable power in daily driving as you need tiny amounts in daily driving such is the traffic situation and the old V8's had a surfeit in any daily driving situation. How much torque do you actually need to follow that Nissan Micra through town?

When and more pertinently IF you find a nice piece of clear, open road, the V8s are much more enjoyable and push you along faster than you can/should drive so I don't see the benefit of the newer engines in terms of driving enjoyment.

But turbo 6s are the new engines of choice for the RS/M/QF so that's what we've got and new RS4 looks lovely to me.

Surely you can't deny that the old N/A V8's are flat low down though, and sometimes you just can't be arsed to have to thrash an engine to make decent progress, and this is where the Turbo engines work better I think.

Don't get me wrong if the roads were always empty...and you could stay above 6k rpm then the old engines do make sense for sure, but there's a good reason why most N/A engines have died now, and buyers want Turbo's for a good reason.

[Rich_W]

Given that MB's C63 is a 4.0 BiTurbo V8, I'm surprised Audi went for a sub 3 V6 TT

Especially when they have one in the RS6 they could probably shoe horn in and detune a touch.


Sadly, money aside , the nagging part is the TWOC-ers fav car is currently anything S/RS and/Or estate (sorry Avant) I'm sure others fast stuff is stolen, but it doesn't seem to make the internet news as much.

[Chestrockwell]

Nickbrapp said:

culpz said:

If that's the case, go and buy a decent used B8 RS4. Oh wait, nobody really liked it and it didn't quite take off, did it.

This is what gets me, Audi went for another big N/A V8 for the last model and not that many people bought it. It didn't get particularly good reviews and most complained due to the lack to torque/grunt and an inaccessible power band/delivery for daily driving. It sounded great though and really came alive when you're really able to go for it.

That's called gt86 syndrome, boffins bang on and on about what they really want, N/A light, skinny tyres, etc etc and then it gets made and no one buys it

Case in point the estate v10 e61 5 series, or the swift sport( which never sold numbers like the turboed hatches available)

Nail on the head