Near Theft of my S3
Discussion
70proof said:
All the thief needs to block is the gsm signal to render the disable you control over the car, then all you can do is watch where it goes....
According to the Sales pitch, the phone acts like another remote. So it may well use the GSM modem to control everything via the phone. The fact it has the highest thatcham approval already and its only just coning over to the uk whereas the Ghost doesnt have any approval was the point i was getting atHedgeyGedgey said:
According to the Sales pitch, the phone acts like another remote. So it may well use the GSM modem to control everything via the phone. The fact it has the highest thatcham approval already and its only just coning over to the uk whereas the Ghost doesnt have any approval was the point i was getting at
All I'm trying to say is the phone communicates with gsm..... A SIM card.... That won't be encrypted any more than the network, but the thief doesn't need to hack it, just block the signal..... Now, if the system can detect a block and self managed the situation, finejust been on their website and had a read..... they are in essence a remote operated immobiliser..... question to manufacturers... why cant you similarly encrypt the factory systems?? if they did, then you wouldnt need a pandora system!
Edited by 70proof on Thursday 30th November 21:31
IJB1959 said:
Nope, not at all I just happen to have one and seriously rate them. And because this is a theft thread, it is worth mentioning it's existence even if more than once in a response.
Whats the advantage over just putting the key under my mattress though? If they are they type of person to wake me up to get the key, they'll wake me up for the code anyway?CaptainMorgan said:
IJB1959 said:
Nope, not at all I just happen to have one and seriously rate them. And because this is a theft thread, it is worth mentioning it's existence even if more than once in a response.
Whats the advantage over just putting the key under my mattress though? If they are they type of person to wake me up to get the key, they'll wake me up for the code anyway?Example of the scanner thief's use here.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pffcngJJq0
Ironically, they turn up in a stolen S3.
Edited by IJB1959 on Friday 1st December 10:12
HedgeyGedgey said:
Whilst i dont doubt the Ghost is a good bit of kit, its not thatcham approved. Its only an incarnation of the Clifford blackjax from yesteryear. That was thatcham approved. Which to me says theres a vital floor in the system somewhere. There are much better alarm systems available on the market, Pandora springs to mind. Ability to control the entire vehicle from your phone from anywhere around the world. Gets stolen, simply turn the car off and go collect it. It has anti hijack, locking the doors until the keys are out of the ignition. Tracking system on your phone, back up battery's for the alarm. The Ghost doesn't prevent the thief getting the code from you, thats a vital floor right there
Alll thatcham approved alarms have a remote/fob?So what's to stop someone stealing the remote
The ghost is great as it's totally invisible and to a would be thief just looks like the car is broken.
Is there a full technical description of how this works, I get the general idea but not the finer points, i.e. the key is in the house, is it constantly poling to see if it is in range of the car and the thieves amplify that signal near the car, or spoof it in some way so the car thinks the key is present and opens up, they then connect their electronics and clone a key or does the car just start and then they nick it and make a key later ?
J4CKO said:
Is there a full technical description of how this works, I get the general idea but not the finer points, i.e. the key is in the house, is it constantly poling to see if it is in range of the car and the thieves amplify that signal near the car, or spoof it in some way so the car thinks the key is present and opens up, they then connect their electronics and clone a key or does the car just start and then they nick it and make a key later ?
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=1708334&mid=253159all explained here... the car is constantly poling for the key, the key when in range responds.... the thiefs are simply creating a bridge for the signal that naturally doesnt travel very far.... thats how the manufacturers see it as secure, the signal doesnt travel very far!
70proof said:
J4CKO said:
Is there a full technical description of how this works, I get the general idea but not the finer points, i.e. the key is in the house, is it constantly poling to see if it is in range of the car and the thieves amplify that signal near the car, or spoof it in some way so the car thinks the key is present and opens up, they then connect their electronics and clone a key or does the car just start and then they nick it and make a key later ?
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=1708334&mid=253159all explained here... the car is constantly poling for the key, the key when in range responds.... the thiefs are simply creating a bridge for the signal that naturally doesnt travel very far.... thats how the manufacturers see it as secure, the signal doesnt travel very far!
70proof said:
xjay1337 said:
The ghost is great as it's totally invisible and to a would be thief just looks like the car is broken.
yes, a 2016 golf r that they followed home earlier is now broken.... 
You can bet on the shady internet there will be ways to get over any security system you fit.
70proof said:
yes, a 2016 golf r that they followed home earlier is now broken....
You are assuming as well they followed you in this particular instance.You are assuming that they wouldn't just leave and carry on to another target.
You are assuming you wouldn't just tell them the code immediately.
There's always a way round something, it's just whether it can be achieved quickly in the dark.
My Land-Rover has a master power key that interrupts the main battery feed. You have to find it, and have a suitable key for the device. You can defeat it by ripping the seats out, exposing the batteries, working out in the rats nest of secondary and primary batteries which is which, running a live wire to the coil and jumping the starter straight off the battery, if you have a really, really long jump lead.
Or, sitting in a Land Rover outside a floodlit house with dogs going garrity, would you think "stuff this, I'll nick a different one".
My Land-Rover has a master power key that interrupts the main battery feed. You have to find it, and have a suitable key for the device. You can defeat it by ripping the seats out, exposing the batteries, working out in the rats nest of secondary and primary batteries which is which, running a live wire to the coil and jumping the starter straight off the battery, if you have a really, really long jump lead.
Or, sitting in a Land Rover outside a floodlit house with dogs going garrity, would you think "stuff this, I'll nick a different one".
egor110 said:
70proof said:
xjay1337 said:
The ghost is great as it's totally invisible and to a would be thief just looks like the car is broken.
yes, a 2016 golf r that they followed home earlier is now broken.... You can bet on the shady internet there will be ways to get over any security system you fit.
IJB1959 said:
egor110 said:
70proof said:
xjay1337 said:
The ghost is great as it's totally invisible and to a would be thief just looks like the car is broken.
yes, a 2016 golf r that they followed home earlier is now broken.... You can bet on the shady internet there will be ways to get over any security system you fit.
http://www.focusrsoc.com/forums/topic/339202-stole...
kmpowell said:
IJB1959 said:
egor110 said:
70proof said:
xjay1337 said:
The ghost is great as it's totally invisible and to a would be thief just looks like the car is broken.
yes, a 2016 golf r that they followed home earlier is now broken.... You can bet on the shady internet there will be ways to get over any security system you fit.
http://www.focusrsoc.com/forums/topic/339202-stole...
IJB1959 said:
kmpowell said:
IJB1959 said:
egor110 said:
70proof said:
xjay1337 said:
The ghost is great as it's totally invisible and to a would be thief just looks like the car is broken.
yes, a 2016 golf r that they followed home earlier is now broken.... You can bet on the shady internet there will be ways to get over any security system you fit.
http://www.focusrsoc.com/forums/topic/339202-stole...
https://www.facebook.com/AutowatchUK/posts/7619602...
https://www.facebook.com/AutowatchUK/posts/7632427...
It appears you are required to join their forum to view.
I've been browsing it via cached pages.
Nothing sticks out as any immediate flaw in the system. It's quite possible that the OP in that case left the car running etc.
It may be a certain iteration of how one specific model of cars canbus system interacts.
The point is devices like the Ghost are useful in most cases and just another layer of security .
I've been browsing it via cached pages.
Nothing sticks out as any immediate flaw in the system. It's quite possible that the OP in that case left the car running etc.
It may be a certain iteration of how one specific model of cars canbus system interacts.
The point is devices like the Ghost are useful in most cases and just another layer of security .
From AutoWatch Facebook page:
We have found and resolved the issue on the Focus MK2. The fix requires an upgrade which your installer will be able to do for you.
During the investigation, we also found that some variants of the Fiesta MK7's and earlier Focus MK3's installations could have a related security problem.
Here are the details for each vehicle.
1) Ford Focus MK2 - Installation upgrade required.
2) Ford Focus MK3 - Contact your installer to find out if you need the software update. Almost all vehicles installed after March 2017 do not need the update (Install dependent).
3) Ford Fiesta MK7 (2008-2017) - Contact your installer to find out if your vehicles needs the installation upgrade.
We have found and resolved the issue on the Focus MK2. The fix requires an upgrade which your installer will be able to do for you.
During the investigation, we also found that some variants of the Fiesta MK7's and earlier Focus MK3's installations could have a related security problem.
Here are the details for each vehicle.
1) Ford Focus MK2 - Installation upgrade required.
2) Ford Focus MK3 - Contact your installer to find out if you need the software update. Almost all vehicles installed after March 2017 do not need the update (Install dependent).
3) Ford Fiesta MK7 (2008-2017) - Contact your installer to find out if your vehicles needs the installation upgrade.
I'm bet good money that the Autowatch Ghost is actually one of these:
https://www.ampire.de/Security-Systems/Security-fo...
See in a video here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB3PsfElt0M
As you can see, it's bloody small, and it seems you can fit it anywhere in the vehicle that CANBus reaches (which is pretty much anywhere...)
How does it actually work? It will be able to snoop on messages sent by button-presses (eg steering wheel paddles to the gearbox) and interpret them as the instructions to 'disarm' itself. What's trickier is how it actually immobilizes the car... it might either act as a CANbus jammer when it detects the beginning of 'start the car' message, causing the command from car to ECU to be corrupted and ignored. Or, it could simply see the 'start' command and immediately issue a 'stop' command to cancel it.
The nature of CANbus means you can't disable it or bypass it without physically removing it - but once you know where it is it's probably a trivial job to take it out of circuit. So it's slightly 'security through obscurity'. The only 'flaw' I can see (unless, like for the Focus, their code has bugs...) is that installers are likely to pick just a handful of favourite places to install these.
https://www.ampire.de/Security-Systems/Security-fo...
See in a video here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB3PsfElt0M
As you can see, it's bloody small, and it seems you can fit it anywhere in the vehicle that CANBus reaches (which is pretty much anywhere...)
How does it actually work? It will be able to snoop on messages sent by button-presses (eg steering wheel paddles to the gearbox) and interpret them as the instructions to 'disarm' itself. What's trickier is how it actually immobilizes the car... it might either act as a CANbus jammer when it detects the beginning of 'start the car' message, causing the command from car to ECU to be corrupted and ignored. Or, it could simply see the 'start' command and immediately issue a 'stop' command to cancel it.
The nature of CANbus means you can't disable it or bypass it without physically removing it - but once you know where it is it's probably a trivial job to take it out of circuit. So it's slightly 'security through obscurity'. The only 'flaw' I can see (unless, like for the Focus, their code has bugs...) is that installers are likely to pick just a handful of favourite places to install these.
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