Would you wait 45 minutes when filling up to get it free?
Poll: Would you wait 45 minutes when filling up to get it free?
Total Members Polled: 461
Discussion
Why would you expect to charge a leaf at a tesla supercharger, a propriety brand focused station?
Tesla are not building superchargers so non teslas can use them they are a perk of choosing to buy a tesla - typically free (for now, but not always).
And a leaf cant use 120kW charging, its designed for 50kW CHAdeMO , which is a standard and there is a pretty decent developed network of.
There is an adapter to use tesla destination chargers with a leaf/CHAdeMO vehicle, not sure if its actually available yet though.
Tesla are not building superchargers so non teslas can use them they are a perk of choosing to buy a tesla - typically free (for now, but not always).
And a leaf cant use 120kW charging, its designed for 50kW CHAdeMO , which is a standard and there is a pretty decent developed network of.
There is an adapter to use tesla destination chargers with a leaf/CHAdeMO vehicle, not sure if its actually available yet though.
"Why 2017 will go down as the beginning of the end of the internal combustion engine"
https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/97797564/why...
still head in the sand Simon?
mcm87 said:
I don’t want to get pulled into the wider argument but Tesla supercharges aren’t limited to 120kw per location. The 120kw is per pair of stalls.
If 6 cars arrive at a 12 stall location all 6 will have the full 120kw available to them as long as they don’t both use a paired stall (they’re labelled 1A, 1B, 2A etc...). If they pair then the first car gets priority and as the first tapers off at higher levels of charge the second ramps up to keep the full 120kw used.
This has resulted in some locations having insufficient power available (South Mimms?) but they get around this by having battery storage onsite to act as a buffer to keep the full 120kw available for as many cars as possible.
How dare you suggest Simon is wrong about something? He's in the top 1% of engineers on here...If 6 cars arrive at a 12 stall location all 6 will have the full 120kw available to them as long as they don’t both use a paired stall (they’re labelled 1A, 1B, 2A etc...). If they pair then the first car gets priority and as the first tapers off at higher levels of charge the second ramps up to keep the full 120kw used.
This has resulted in some locations having insufficient power available (South Mimms?) but they get around this by having battery storage onsite to act as a buffer to keep the full 120kw available for as many cars as possible.
I'm a little disappointed he's missed an LPG opportunity. Surely a generator running on LPG would be relatively clean and efficient (as it'll be at a fixed load,etc). So why not install a few with banks of batteries at charging points to buffer the grid..
Toltec said:
GT119 said:
I've seen ideas where the inside lane on a motorway would be able to charge vehicles moving over it
I mentioned that in a post, but more as a tongue in cheek way of reducing MLMs.rscott said:
mcm87 said:
I don’t want to get pulled into the wider argument but Tesla supercharges aren’t limited to 120kw per location. The 120kw is per pair of stalls.
If 6 cars arrive at a 12 stall location all 6 will have the full 120kw available to them as long as they don’t both use a paired stall (they’re labelled 1A, 1B, 2A etc...). If they pair then the first car gets priority and as the first tapers off at higher levels of charge the second ramps up to keep the full 120kw used.
This has resulted in some locations having insufficient power available (South Mimms?) but they get around this by having battery storage onsite to act as a buffer to keep the full 120kw available for as many cars as possible.
How dare you suggest Simon is wrong about something? He's in the top 1% of engineers on here...If 6 cars arrive at a 12 stall location all 6 will have the full 120kw available to them as long as they don’t both use a paired stall (they’re labelled 1A, 1B, 2A etc...). If they pair then the first car gets priority and as the first tapers off at higher levels of charge the second ramps up to keep the full 120kw used.
This has resulted in some locations having insufficient power available (South Mimms?) but they get around this by having battery storage onsite to act as a buffer to keep the full 120kw available for as many cars as possible.
I'm a little disappointed he's missed an LPG opportunity. Surely a generator running on LPG would be relatively clean and efficient (as it'll be at a fixed load,etc). So why not install a few with banks of batteries at charging points to buffer the grid..
If a charging location claims to be able to charge 10 EVs at the same time, if this involves what you'd call '5 stalls' it still implies that each EV will only charge at half the claimed speed. Half of 120kw is 60kw. Unless you think it a fairer compromise that the first 5 EVs charge at 90kw while the last 5 charge to arrive charge at 30kw. Whether it's a case of 60kw and 60kw or 90kw and 30kw still implies charge time compromise, it's just that if you're among the first 5 to arrive you'd hope the compromise to be 90/30 and if you're in the second 5 to arrive you'd hope the compromise would be 60/60. And if there's a que you all suffer the compromise! Even if you were the only person charging on a site with 10 charging positions a 40 minute charge time would be bad enough. If you were the 6th person to arrive on a site with 10 charging positions a 160 minute charge could be a massive inconvenience if you were hoping for a 40 minute charge. If there were a que, even if you were first in line, you might have to wait 320 minutes even though you were expecting to be there only 40 minutes. If you were second in line in a que you might have to wait 480 minutes. The solution would be to install more charging locations at the site - If there were an equal number of EVs to ices on the road you would need far far more EV charging points at the forecourt than ice refuelling points simply because ices can refuel in 5 mins where EVs take 40 mins / OR you would need to make the EV charging points just as fast as the ice refuelling points. Whichever way you look at it the site needs a massively bigger electricity supply from the grid and/or you need massive storage batteries at the site. Not that you'll be using a Tesla charger to charge a Leaf anyway, but maybe each brand of EV car could have it's own proprietary charging point further adding to inconvenience... You don't see ice forecourts with pumps marked 'Ford only' and 'Nissan only' but you do see EV charging points with 'Tesla only'. Convenient if you don't own a Tesla!
I didn't think I'd have any need to talk about the obvious ability of an LPG powered generator being able to charge up as many EVs simultaneously as you could fit on a garage forecourt.. What do you think a power station is lol? Just that between a power station and an existing forecourt the electricity cabling couldn't handle charging 'as many as you like' EVs. And you'd have to build more power stations, which you say won't be the case. And if this forecourt is on a motorway it would be more efficient just to put a relatively small (compared to power station) ice engine running directly on LPG in each car. But at least it would be easy to get enough LPG to the forecourt power station / generator to charge as many EVs as you like... You could do that in the same way as it is currently easily possible to keep an ice forecourt supplied with ice fuel, using tankers,or you could really push the boat out an build a little pipeline to supply the forecourt but compared to the tanker solution the pipeline would probably be ridiculously expensive eh.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Friday 13th October 16:22
Yippee. Yet more nonsense from Simon..
Chargers don't deliver a constant power - it varies depending on the charge level, so it's quite possible to have both bays charging at max battery rate.
Tesla superchargers are the only vehicle specific charging point - all others are industry standards and can be implemented by manufacturers if they so desire.
LPG generators was a tongue in cheek comment, yet you fell for it and missed the main point that ICE has a relatively narrow window for optimum performance..
Chargers don't deliver a constant power - it varies depending on the charge level, so it's quite possible to have both bays charging at max battery rate.
Tesla superchargers are the only vehicle specific charging point - all others are industry standards and can be implemented by manufacturers if they so desire.
LPG generators was a tongue in cheek comment, yet you fell for it and missed the main point that ICE has a relatively narrow window for optimum performance..
rscott said:
Yippee. Yet more nonsense from Simon..
Chargers don't deliver a constant power - it varies depending on the charge level, so it's quite possible to have both bays charging at max battery rate.
Tesla superchargers are the only vehicle specific charging point - all others are industry standards and can be implemented by manufacturers if they so desire.
LPG generators was a tongue in cheek comment, yet you fell for it and missed the main point that ICE has a relatively narrow window for optimum performance..
Shooting yourself in the foot! You have just touched upon an aspect of EV charging that is a negative and which previously I hadn't felt the need to even touch upon (I didn't need to touch upon this aspect to make any of my points because the other aspects regards charging are bad enough already!). The reason charge rate has to vary over time is that the batteries cannot accept the full rate of charge over the entire charge time, which is why we see charge time figures quoted such as 'X time to get to 80% of full charge', which implies that to charge the battery to 100% you have to increase charging time by more than 20% to get the final 20% of charge into the battery! Since at no point during a charge would a 120kw rated charger be able to charge faster than it's 120kw rating, this aspect implies longer charging times to 100% battery charge than I have so far been suggesting - I was well aware of this, just didn't feel the need to even touch upon it!Chargers don't deliver a constant power - it varies depending on the charge level, so it's quite possible to have both bays charging at max battery rate.
Tesla superchargers are the only vehicle specific charging point - all others are industry standards and can be implemented by manufacturers if they so desire.
LPG generators was a tongue in cheek comment, yet you fell for it and missed the main point that ICE has a relatively narrow window for optimum performance..
Suppose you have a 100kwh battery and 100kw rated charger, so far I've been saying it will take 1 hour to charge the battery. But actually it will take longer than 1 hour because the last 20% (and don't forget this implies 20% of range) would take longer than 12minutes (20% of 1 hour) to charge. Partly because some of the 100kw of the charge 'goes up in smoke' (as you'd probably claim if the tables were turned) as wasted heat heating up the batteries. Heat is another problem with fast charging batteries, heating batteries during charging them reduces battery lifetime expectancy.
Tesla specific charging points are the only specific charging points SO FAR. In 20 years will this still be the case or in 20 years will there be other manufacturer specific charging points, or will all charging points end up being the same (which could be a negative for Tesla)? I imagine you'll come back saying it will be a positive for Tesla and all other EV manufacturers / owners, because all charging points will be 500kw and there will be 10 such charging points on every forecourt or something? All these forecourts with 5megawatt connections to the grid and/or batteries buried underground worth millions of pounds... Dream on! Your pure EVs are good for knocking around relatively locally and will be a pita to use as anything like a touring car well into the foreseeable future (and touring car only has to mean one that is used to maybe occasionally have a drive to perhaps the coast). Meanwhile, for anyone who has such 'touring car' and likes the convenience of filling up quickly when they might need to a hybrid will make more sense than a pure EV, and a small minority of the hybrids that will be around will be converted to LPG. If the same small minority of hybrids are converted to LPG as current ice only petrol cars are converted to LPG, that's great, my market just increased by 60%! Nobody currently converts a petrol ice to LPG if they only use it for knocking around locally!
Ices do have a narrow band where they are most efficient. Hybrid tech helps to ensure the engine runs in this band!
Even without hyrbid tech an ice is more likely to be in this band cruising on the motorway than driving in the city. In one way (during discharging anyway) EVs are energy efficient regardless of speed, but in some ways this is actually a point against them because as speed increases the power needed to maintain that speed rises at a much faster rate than the speed. Imagine 2 very similar cars, same model in fact but one has an EV powertrain the other has an ice petrol powertrain. The ice car range might be much the same regardless of whether it is doing 70mph or 20mph, the EV range will be dramatically lower at 70mph than at 20mph. The ice car might do 40mpg at 70mph so for a range of 200miles would have (only a very small) 5 gallon petrol tank. What size petrol tank would the EV car compare to? If you want to drive at 70mph on the motorway and it's range is (instead of being 200 miles at 20mph) only 100 miles at 70mph you could only claim the EV battery pack is the equivalent to a 2.5 gallon petrol tank. Unless you want (and were allowed to by law) drive at 20mph on the motorway.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Friday 13th October 17:39
SimonYorkshire said:
Shooting yourself in the foot! You have just touched upon an aspect of EV charging that is a negative and which previously I hadn't felt the need to even touch upon (I didn't need to touch upon this aspect to make any of my points because the other aspects regards charging are bad enough already!). The reason charge rate has to vary over time is that the batteries cannot accept the full rate of charge over the entire charge time, which is why we see charge time figures quoted such as 'X time to get to 80% of full charge', which implies that to charge the battery to 100% you have to increase charging time by more than 20% to get the final 20% of charge into the battery! Since at no point during a charge would a 120kw rated charger be able to charge faster than it's 120kw rating, this aspect implies longer charging times to 100% battery charge than I have so far been suggesting - I was well aware of this, just didn't feel the need to even touch upon it!
Suppose you have a 100kwh battery and 100kw rated charger, so far I've been saying it will take 1 hour to charge the battery. But actually it will take longer than 1 hour because the last 20% (and don't forget this implies 20% of range) would take longer than 12minutes (20% of 1 hour) to charge. Partly because some of the 100kw of the charge 'goes up in smoke' (as you'd probably claim if the tables were turned) as wasted heat heating up the batteries. Heat is another problem with fast charging batteries, heating batteries during charging them reduces battery lifetime expectancy.
Tesla specific charging points are the only specific charging points SO FAR. In 20 years will this still be the case or in 20 years will there be other manufacturer specific charging points, or will all charging points end up being the same (which could be a negative for Tesla)? I imagine you'll come back saying it will be a positive for Tesla and all other EV manufacturers / owners, because all charging points will be 500kw and there will be 10 such charging points on every forecourt or something? All these forecourts with 5megawatt connections to the grid and/or batteries buried underground worth millions of pounds... Dream on! Your pure EVs are good for knocking around relatively locally and will be a pita to use as anything like a touring car well into the foreseeable future (and touring car only has to mean one that is used to maybe occasionally have a drive to perhaps the coast). Meanwhile, for anyone who has such 'touring car' and likes the convenience of filling up quickly when they might need to a hybrid will make more sense than a pure EV, and a small minority of the hybrids that will be around will be converted to LPG. If the same small minority of hybrids are converted to LPG as current ice only petrol cars are converted to LPG, that's great, my market just increased by 60%! Nobody currently converts a petrol ice to LPG if they only use it for knocking around locally!
Does every EV owner need to fully charge every time, especially if they have home or workplace charging?Suppose you have a 100kwh battery and 100kw rated charger, so far I've been saying it will take 1 hour to charge the battery. But actually it will take longer than 1 hour because the last 20% (and don't forget this implies 20% of range) would take longer than 12minutes (20% of 1 hour) to charge. Partly because some of the 100kw of the charge 'goes up in smoke' (as you'd probably claim if the tables were turned) as wasted heat heating up the batteries. Heat is another problem with fast charging batteries, heating batteries during charging them reduces battery lifetime expectancy.
Tesla specific charging points are the only specific charging points SO FAR. In 20 years will this still be the case or in 20 years will there be other manufacturer specific charging points, or will all charging points end up being the same (which could be a negative for Tesla)? I imagine you'll come back saying it will be a positive for Tesla and all other EV manufacturers / owners, because all charging points will be 500kw and there will be 10 such charging points on every forecourt or something? All these forecourts with 5megawatt connections to the grid and/or batteries buried underground worth millions of pounds... Dream on! Your pure EVs are good for knocking around relatively locally and will be a pita to use as anything like a touring car well into the foreseeable future (and touring car only has to mean one that is used to maybe occasionally have a drive to perhaps the coast). Meanwhile, for anyone who has such 'touring car' and likes the convenience of filling up quickly when they might need to a hybrid will make more sense than a pure EV, and a small minority of the hybrids that will be around will be converted to LPG. If the same small minority of hybrids are converted to LPG as current ice only petrol cars are converted to LPG, that's great, my market just increased by 60%! Nobody currently converts a petrol ice to LPG if they only use it for knocking around locally!
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Friday 13th October 17:00
Most cars are used for 'knocking around locally' as you so nicely put it, so EVs would appear to be a practical choice for many.
I guess owners of older hybrids might consider LPG, but those who lease or simply want to preserve the manufacturer's warranty will leave that tech in its tiny niche.
rscott said:
Does every EV owner need to fully charge every time, especially if they have home or workplace charging?
Most cars are used for 'knocking around locally' as you so nicely put it, so EVs would appear to be a practical choice for many.
I guess owners of older hybrids might consider LPG, but those who lease or simply want to preserve the manufacturer's warranty will leave that tech in its tiny niche.
Ahh right... Steering conversation back around to people not needing to charge on forecourts again now then? I thought we were discussing EV range and charging time aspects while out on the road exceeding EV tiny range capabilities. Most cars are used for 'knocking around locally' as you so nicely put it, so EVs would appear to be a practical choice for many.
I guess owners of older hybrids might consider LPG, but those who lease or simply want to preserve the manufacturer's warranty will leave that tech in its tiny niche.
Most cars are used for knocking around locally. Now ask yourself and other car owners if you'd all be happy to effectively forfeit the ability to just get in the car and go wherever you want whenever you want. A lot of people run around with their fuel gauges on only a quarter tank but that doesn't mean they don't appreciate that they could decide to jump in the car, fill the tank in a couple of minutes and head off to the coast.
Most cars are what you'd class as 'older' but an LPG conversion doesn't mean all aspects of a manufacturer warranty on a new car are voided, we've been through this before. I agree LPG is a niche, not as tiny as you would like to believe though. If we were to compare total miles covered on LPG to total miles covered by EVs then you'd see what was the smallest niche. I want LPG to remain a niche, while you seem to foresee ever growing use of EVs. If the ability to refuel at home were as big a draw as you would like to believe, I expect I would have arranged a lot of home LPG refuelling stations for people by now but I haven't! Forget people's concerns for the environment as being a motivating factor in their buying an EV, LPG is better for the environment than petrol or diesel but none of my customers care about that. The draw of LPG is half price fuel for the car they currently own and cheaper running costs will also be the biggest motivator for people to switch to an EV. Now consider this - My customers could fill up with LPG at home for an even lower price than they pay on forecourts, but I know that if they were restricted to filling up at home and couldn't quickly refuel with LPG when out on the road at forecourts etc I would have few customers, even though the car is likely to have 300 mile range on LPG (far greater range than an EV) and even though they would only have to pay maybe £1300 to convert to LPG.. You think everyone will be happy to spend £20lk on a car that effectively limits them to home charging or very long waits to recharge if they dare to risk exceeding it;'s range on a drive out? Some will for sure, you seem to fit into that category. But you've got to face this - If most people were happy just to use a car for knocking around locally there would be no need for the hybrids, yet manufacturers recognise that hybrids are going to outsell pure EVs. Even though hybrids can be plugged in at home and nip down the shops on electric only power, people still want the car to have effectively unlimited range and due to charging times of EVs they cannot provide effectively unlimited range, only massively compromised effectively unlimited range with the downside involving very long periods spent on forecourts - where they don't want to be - while the thing charges.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Friday 13th October 18:27
SimonYorkshire said:
Ahh right... Steering conversation back around to people not needing to charge on forecourts again now then? I thought we were discussing EV range and charging time aspects while out on the road exceeding EV tiny range capabilities.
Most cars are used for knocking around locally. Now ask yourself and other car owners if you'd all be happy to effectively forfeit the ability to just get in the car and go wherever you want whenever you want. A lot of people run around with their fuel gauges on only a quarter tank but that doesn't mean they don't appreciate that they could decide to jump in the car, fill the tank in a couple of minutes and head off to the coast.
Most cars are what you'd class as 'older' but an LPG conversion doesn't mean all aspects of a manufacturer warranty on a new car are voided, we've been through this before. I agree LPG is a niche, not as tiny as you would like to believe though. If we were to compare total miles covered on LPG to total miles covered by EVs then you'd see what was the smallest niche. I want LPG to remain a niche, while you seem to foresee ever growing use of EVs. If the ability to refuel at home were as big a draw as you would like to believe, I expect I would have arranged a lot of home LPG refuelling stations for people by now but I haven't! Forget people's concerns for the environment as being a motivating factor in their buying an EV, LPG is better for the environment than petrol or diesel but none of my customers care about that. The draw of LPG is half price fuel for the car they currently own and cheaper running costs will also be the biggest motivator for people to switch to an EV. Now consider this - My customers could fill up with LPG at home for an even lower price than they pay on forecourts, but I know that if they were restricted to filling up at home and couldn't quickly refuel with LPG when out on the road at forecourts etc I would have few customers, even though the car is likely to have 300 mile range on LPG (far greater range than an EV) and even though they would only have to pay maybe £1300 to convert to LPG.. You think everyone will be happy to spend £20lk on a car that effectively limits them to home charging or very long waits to recharge if they dare to risk exceeding it;'s range on a drive out? Some will for sure, you seem to fit into that category. But you've got to face this - If most people were happy just to use a car for knocking around locally there would be no need for the hybrids, yet manufacturers recognise that hybrids are going to outsell pure EVs. Even though hybrids can be plugged in at home and nip down the shops on electric only power, people still want the car to have effectively unlimited range and due to charging times of EVs they cannot provide effectively unlimited range, only massively compromised effectively unlimited range with the downside involving very long periods spent on forecourts - where they don't want to be - while the thing charges.
I think you'll find most buy hybrids for the improved economy and tax benefits. Most cars are used for knocking around locally. Now ask yourself and other car owners if you'd all be happy to effectively forfeit the ability to just get in the car and go wherever you want whenever you want. A lot of people run around with their fuel gauges on only a quarter tank but that doesn't mean they don't appreciate that they could decide to jump in the car, fill the tank in a couple of minutes and head off to the coast.
Most cars are what you'd class as 'older' but an LPG conversion doesn't mean all aspects of a manufacturer warranty on a new car are voided, we've been through this before. I agree LPG is a niche, not as tiny as you would like to believe though. If we were to compare total miles covered on LPG to total miles covered by EVs then you'd see what was the smallest niche. I want LPG to remain a niche, while you seem to foresee ever growing use of EVs. If the ability to refuel at home were as big a draw as you would like to believe, I expect I would have arranged a lot of home LPG refuelling stations for people by now but I haven't! Forget people's concerns for the environment as being a motivating factor in their buying an EV, LPG is better for the environment than petrol or diesel but none of my customers care about that. The draw of LPG is half price fuel for the car they currently own and cheaper running costs will also be the biggest motivator for people to switch to an EV. Now consider this - My customers could fill up with LPG at home for an even lower price than they pay on forecourts, but I know that if they were restricted to filling up at home and couldn't quickly refuel with LPG when out on the road at forecourts etc I would have few customers, even though the car is likely to have 300 mile range on LPG (far greater range than an EV) and even though they would only have to pay maybe £1300 to convert to LPG.. You think everyone will be happy to spend £20lk on a car that effectively limits them to home charging or very long waits to recharge if they dare to risk exceeding it;'s range on a drive out? Some will for sure, you seem to fit into that category. But you've got to face this - If most people were happy just to use a car for knocking around locally there would be no need for the hybrids, yet manufacturers recognise that hybrids are going to outsell pure EVs. Even though hybrids can be plugged in at home and nip down the shops on electric only power, people still want the car to have effectively unlimited range and due to charging times of EVs they cannot provide effectively unlimited range, only massively compromised effectively unlimited range with the downside involving very long periods spent on forecourts - where they don't want to be - while the thing charges.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Friday 13th October 18:27
Does any manufacturer warranty allow fitting of LPG? Unless you can prove otherwise, I'd say all cover for the engine and gearbox would be invalidated.
Most people don't want home LPG tanks as the saving isn't that great compared to the space taken, cost and hassle of remembering to keep it refuelled. Same as most don't want gas/oil tanks for heating if they can't get mains gas. Far less hassle to use a fuel which is supplied directly to the property...
SimonYorkshire said:
Ahh right... Steering conversation back around to people not needing to charge on forecourts again now then? I thought we were discussing EV range and charging time aspects while out on the road exceeding EV tiny range capabilities.
Most cars are used for knocking around locally. Now ask yourself and other car owners if you'd all be happy to effectively forfeit the ability to just get in the car and go wherever you want whenever you want. A lot of people run around with their fuel gauges on only a quarter tank but that doesn't mean they don't appreciate that they could decide to jump in the car, fill the tank in a couple of minutes and head off to the coast.
Most cars are what you'd class as 'older' but an LPG conversion doesn't mean all aspects of a manufacturer warranty on a new car are voided, we've been through this before. I agree LPG is a niche, not as tiny as you would like to believe though. If we were to compare total miles covered on LPG to total miles covered by EVs then you'd see what was the smallest niche. I want LPG to remain a niche, while you seem to foresee ever growing use of EVs. If the ability to refuel at home were as big a draw as you would like to believe, I expect I would have arranged a lot of home LPG refuelling stations for people by now but I haven't! Forget people's concerns for the environment as being a motivating factor in their buying an EV, LPG is better for the environment than petrol or diesel but none of my customers care about that. The draw of LPG is half price fuel for the car they currently own and cheaper running costs will also be the biggest motivator for people to switch to an EV. Now consider this - My customers could fill up with LPG at home for an even lower price than they pay on forecourts, but I know that if they were restricted to filling up at home and couldn't quickly refuel with LPG when out on the road at forecourts etc I would have few customers, even though the car is likely to have 300 mile range on LPG (far greater range than an EV) and even though they would only have to pay maybe £1300 to convert to LPG.. You think everyone will be happy to spend £20lk on a car that effectively limits them to home charging or very long waits to recharge if they dare to risk exceeding it;'s range on a drive out? Some will for sure, you seem to fit into that category. But you've got to face this - If most people were happy just to use a car for knocking around locally there would be no need for the hybrids, yet manufacturers recognise that hybrids are going to outsell pure EVs. Even though hybrids can be plugged in at home and nip down the shops on electric only power, people still want the car to have effectively unlimited range and due to charging times of EVs they cannot provide effectively unlimited range, only massively compromised effectively unlimited range with the downside involving very long periods spent on forecourts - where they don't want to be - while the thing charges.
I haven't read all of that, but I did read the first few paragraphs, so no idea if this is relevant to your post, but...Most cars are used for knocking around locally. Now ask yourself and other car owners if you'd all be happy to effectively forfeit the ability to just get in the car and go wherever you want whenever you want. A lot of people run around with their fuel gauges on only a quarter tank but that doesn't mean they don't appreciate that they could decide to jump in the car, fill the tank in a couple of minutes and head off to the coast.
Most cars are what you'd class as 'older' but an LPG conversion doesn't mean all aspects of a manufacturer warranty on a new car are voided, we've been through this before. I agree LPG is a niche, not as tiny as you would like to believe though. If we were to compare total miles covered on LPG to total miles covered by EVs then you'd see what was the smallest niche. I want LPG to remain a niche, while you seem to foresee ever growing use of EVs. If the ability to refuel at home were as big a draw as you would like to believe, I expect I would have arranged a lot of home LPG refuelling stations for people by now but I haven't! Forget people's concerns for the environment as being a motivating factor in their buying an EV, LPG is better for the environment than petrol or diesel but none of my customers care about that. The draw of LPG is half price fuel for the car they currently own and cheaper running costs will also be the biggest motivator for people to switch to an EV. Now consider this - My customers could fill up with LPG at home for an even lower price than they pay on forecourts, but I know that if they were restricted to filling up at home and couldn't quickly refuel with LPG when out on the road at forecourts etc I would have few customers, even though the car is likely to have 300 mile range on LPG (far greater range than an EV) and even though they would only have to pay maybe £1300 to convert to LPG.. You think everyone will be happy to spend £20lk on a car that effectively limits them to home charging or very long waits to recharge if they dare to risk exceeding it;'s range on a drive out? Some will for sure, you seem to fit into that category. But you've got to face this - If most people were happy just to use a car for knocking around locally there would be no need for the hybrids, yet manufacturers recognise that hybrids are going to outsell pure EVs. Even though hybrids can be plugged in at home and nip down the shops on electric only power, people still want the car to have effectively unlimited range and due to charging times of EVs they cannot provide effectively unlimited range, only massively compromised effectively unlimited range with the downside involving very long periods spent on forecourts - where they don't want to be - while the thing charges.
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Friday 13th October 18:27
What do you make of this, even if still in development:
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/what-is-solid-state...
please bear in mind I will only read up to 10 lines of text before betting bored.
Efbe said:
I haven't read all of that, but I did read the first few paragraphs, so no idea if this is relevant to your post, but...
What do you make of this, even if still in development:
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/what-is-solid-state...
please bear in mind I will only read up to 10 lines of text before betting bored.
Your link doesn't work. Never mind, I found what you were trying to link to anyway. Here's what it says...What do you make of this, even if still in development:
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/what-is-solid-state...
please bear in mind I will only read up to 10 lines of text before betting bored.
Efbe link said:
Electric cars and wearable technology need better batteries, but it’s believed current lithium-ion battery technology is near its full potential. Solid-state batteries are one of the leading alternatives.
In 2017, Toyota announced plans to have solid-state batteries in electric cars by 2020, while the Dyson electric car could also use solid-state battery technology developed by Sakti3 – a battery technology firm Dyson acquired in 2015.
Solid-state batteries replace the liquid or polymer electrolyte found in current lithium-ion batteries with a solid. The challenge, however, is in finding a solid material that is conductive enough to be used in large batteries. This is what the likes of Toyota and Sakti3 aim to solve.
What are the benefits of solid-state batteries?
The main benefits are batteries that are smaller, higher-capacity and cheaper than current liquid-based lithium-ion batteries. In 2014, Sakti3 announced it was approaching a point where it could produce a battery with twice the density of current batteries at a fifth of the cost. They’re also non-flammable and, in theory, could last longer and charge faster.
As the Samsung Galaxy Note 7 proved, the cost of getting a battery design wrong can be huge. Current lithium-ion batteries are flammable and they also create a lot of heat, which in electric cars means lots of extra gear to contain and dissipate it. An electric car with a solid-state battery could remove all the cooling elements in favour of a larger battery, and therefore longer range, or reduce the size of the battery while retaining the same range and cutting the cost.
Current batteries are also notorious for having short lifespans. Constant charging and discharging slowly erodes the performance of the battery, which is why a two-year-old iPhone often struggles to get through a whole day of use on one charge.
Not sure what you think I should make of that, but what I do make of it is that it backs up my points.In 2017, Toyota announced plans to have solid-state batteries in electric cars by 2020, while the Dyson electric car could also use solid-state battery technology developed by Sakti3 – a battery technology firm Dyson acquired in 2015.
Solid-state batteries replace the liquid or polymer electrolyte found in current lithium-ion batteries with a solid. The challenge, however, is in finding a solid material that is conductive enough to be used in large batteries. This is what the likes of Toyota and Sakti3 aim to solve.
What are the benefits of solid-state batteries?
The main benefits are batteries that are smaller, higher-capacity and cheaper than current liquid-based lithium-ion batteries. In 2014, Sakti3 announced it was approaching a point where it could produce a battery with twice the density of current batteries at a fifth of the cost. They’re also non-flammable and, in theory, could last longer and charge faster.
As the Samsung Galaxy Note 7 proved, the cost of getting a battery design wrong can be huge. Current lithium-ion batteries are flammable and they also create a lot of heat, which in electric cars means lots of extra gear to contain and dissipate it. An electric car with a solid-state battery could remove all the cooling elements in favour of a larger battery, and therefore longer range, or reduce the size of the battery while retaining the same range and cutting the cost.
Current batteries are also notorious for having short lifespans. Constant charging and discharging slowly erodes the performance of the battery, which is why a two-year-old iPhone often struggles to get through a whole day of use on one charge.
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/what-is-solid-state...
that works
without selective editing...
Electric cars and wearable technology need better batteries, but it’s believed current lithium-ion battery technology is near its full potential. Solid-state batteries are one of the leading alternatives.
In 2017, Toyota announced plans to have solid-state batteries in electric cars by 2020, while the Dyson electric car could also use solid-state battery technology developed by Sakti3 – a battery technology firm Dyson acquired in 2015.
Solid-state batteries replace the liquid or polymer electrolyte found in current lithium-ion batteries with a solid. The challenge, however, is in finding a solid material that is conductive enough to be used in large batteries. This is what the likes of Toyota and Sakti3 aim to solve.
What are the benefits of solid-state batteries?
The main benefits are batteries that are smaller, higher-capacity and cheaper than current liquid-based lithium-ion batteries. In 2014, Sakti3 announced it was approaching a point where it could produce a battery with twice the density of current batteries at a fifth of the cost. They’re also non-flammable and, in theory, could last longer and charge faster.
As the Samsung Galaxy Note 7 proved, the cost of getting a battery design wrong can be huge. Current lithium-ion batteries are flammable and they also create a lot of heat, which in electric cars means lots of extra gear to contain and dissipate it. An electric car with a solid-state battery could remove all the cooling elements in favour of a larger battery, and therefore longer range, or reduce the size of the battery while retaining the same range and cutting the cost.
Current batteries are also notorious for having short lifespans. Constant charging and discharging slowly erodes the performance of the battery, which is why a two-year-old iPhone often struggles to get through a whole day of use on one charge.
According to Ilika, a developer of solid-state batteries for Internet of Things devices, they could increase ‘cycle life’ from two years to 10 years. A Wall Street Journal report suggested this could result in greater potential for product recycling after being used in the vehicle, such as in homes or commercial energy storage.
This all sounds great, when can I get one?
Toyota and Dyson both believe solid-state batteries could be in final products by 2020, but there’s no guarantee this will happen. As ever with technology, there’s a huge difference between a technology that works on a small scale and one that’s ready for mass-market production. Watch this space.
that works
without selective editing...
Electric cars and wearable technology need better batteries, but it’s believed current lithium-ion battery technology is near its full potential. Solid-state batteries are one of the leading alternatives.
In 2017, Toyota announced plans to have solid-state batteries in electric cars by 2020, while the Dyson electric car could also use solid-state battery technology developed by Sakti3 – a battery technology firm Dyson acquired in 2015.
Solid-state batteries replace the liquid or polymer electrolyte found in current lithium-ion batteries with a solid. The challenge, however, is in finding a solid material that is conductive enough to be used in large batteries. This is what the likes of Toyota and Sakti3 aim to solve.
What are the benefits of solid-state batteries?
The main benefits are batteries that are smaller, higher-capacity and cheaper than current liquid-based lithium-ion batteries. In 2014, Sakti3 announced it was approaching a point where it could produce a battery with twice the density of current batteries at a fifth of the cost. They’re also non-flammable and, in theory, could last longer and charge faster.
As the Samsung Galaxy Note 7 proved, the cost of getting a battery design wrong can be huge. Current lithium-ion batteries are flammable and they also create a lot of heat, which in electric cars means lots of extra gear to contain and dissipate it. An electric car with a solid-state battery could remove all the cooling elements in favour of a larger battery, and therefore longer range, or reduce the size of the battery while retaining the same range and cutting the cost.
Current batteries are also notorious for having short lifespans. Constant charging and discharging slowly erodes the performance of the battery, which is why a two-year-old iPhone often struggles to get through a whole day of use on one charge.
According to Ilika, a developer of solid-state batteries for Internet of Things devices, they could increase ‘cycle life’ from two years to 10 years. A Wall Street Journal report suggested this could result in greater potential for product recycling after being used in the vehicle, such as in homes or commercial energy storage.
This all sounds great, when can I get one?
Toyota and Dyson both believe solid-state batteries could be in final products by 2020, but there’s no guarantee this will happen. As ever with technology, there’s a huge difference between a technology that works on a small scale and one that’s ready for mass-market production. Watch this space.
pherlopolus said:
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/what-is-solid-state...
that works
without selective editing...
Electric cars and wearable technology need better batteries, but it’s believed current lithium-ion battery technology is near its full potential. Solid-state batteries are one of the leading alternatives.
In 2017, Toyota announced plans to have solid-state batteries in electric cars by 2020, while the Dyson electric car could also use solid-state battery technology developed by Sakti3 – a battery technology firm Dyson acquired in 2015.
Solid-state batteries replace the liquid or polymer electrolyte found in current lithium-ion batteries with a solid. The challenge, however, is in finding a solid material that is conductive enough to be used in large batteries. This is what the likes of Toyota and Sakti3 aim to solve.
What are the benefits of solid-state batteries?
The main benefits are batteries that are smaller, higher-capacity and cheaper than current liquid-based lithium-ion batteries. In 2014, Sakti3 announced it was approaching a point where it could produce a battery with twice the density of current batteries at a fifth of the cost. They’re also non-flammable and, in theory, could last longer and charge faster.
As the Samsung Galaxy Note 7 proved, the cost of getting a battery design wrong can be huge. Current lithium-ion batteries are flammable and they also create a lot of heat, which in electric cars means lots of extra gear to contain and dissipate it. An electric car with a solid-state battery could remove all the cooling elements in favour of a larger battery, and therefore longer range, or reduce the size of the battery while retaining the same range and cutting the cost.
Current batteries are also notorious for having short lifespans. Constant charging and discharging slowly erodes the performance of the battery, which is why a two-year-old iPhone often struggles to get through a whole day of use on one charge.
According to Ilika, a developer of solid-state batteries for Internet of Things devices, they could increase ‘cycle life’ from two years to 10 years. A Wall Street Journal report suggested this could result in greater potential for product recycling after being used in the vehicle, such as in homes or commercial energy storage.
This all sounds great, when can I get one?
Toyota and Dyson both believe solid-state batteries could be in final products by 2020, but there’s no guarantee this will happen. As ever with technology, there’s a huge difference between a technology that works on a small scale and one that’s ready for mass-market production. Watch this space.
Did you just accuse me of selective editing? All I did was not include the last two paragraphs. You know, the paragraphs that imply battery cycle life could be increased from 2 years to 10 years (so currently is 2 years!) but there's a huge difference between what works on a small scale in the lad and one that's ready for mass market production. You don't think the last two paragraphs make current batteries look even worse? Potential for the better future batteries never materialising? that works
without selective editing...
Electric cars and wearable technology need better batteries, but it’s believed current lithium-ion battery technology is near its full potential. Solid-state batteries are one of the leading alternatives.
In 2017, Toyota announced plans to have solid-state batteries in electric cars by 2020, while the Dyson electric car could also use solid-state battery technology developed by Sakti3 – a battery technology firm Dyson acquired in 2015.
Solid-state batteries replace the liquid or polymer electrolyte found in current lithium-ion batteries with a solid. The challenge, however, is in finding a solid material that is conductive enough to be used in large batteries. This is what the likes of Toyota and Sakti3 aim to solve.
What are the benefits of solid-state batteries?
The main benefits are batteries that are smaller, higher-capacity and cheaper than current liquid-based lithium-ion batteries. In 2014, Sakti3 announced it was approaching a point where it could produce a battery with twice the density of current batteries at a fifth of the cost. They’re also non-flammable and, in theory, could last longer and charge faster.
As the Samsung Galaxy Note 7 proved, the cost of getting a battery design wrong can be huge. Current lithium-ion batteries are flammable and they also create a lot of heat, which in electric cars means lots of extra gear to contain and dissipate it. An electric car with a solid-state battery could remove all the cooling elements in favour of a larger battery, and therefore longer range, or reduce the size of the battery while retaining the same range and cutting the cost.
Current batteries are also notorious for having short lifespans. Constant charging and discharging slowly erodes the performance of the battery, which is why a two-year-old iPhone often struggles to get through a whole day of use on one charge.
According to Ilika, a developer of solid-state batteries for Internet of Things devices, they could increase ‘cycle life’ from two years to 10 years. A Wall Street Journal report suggested this could result in greater potential for product recycling after being used in the vehicle, such as in homes or commercial energy storage.
This all sounds great, when can I get one?
Toyota and Dyson both believe solid-state batteries could be in final products by 2020, but there’s no guarantee this will happen. As ever with technology, there’s a huge difference between a technology that works on a small scale and one that’s ready for mass-market production. Watch this space.
InitialDave said:
Again: Mobile device batteries and charging systems are not the same as those for EVS. This is a false parallel to draw.
It was a pro EV'er who brought up parallels between EV batteries and laptop batteries this time. Parallels have been brought up before. Last time parallels were brought up this battery website was linked to by a pro EV'er. http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_o...
Which prompted me to ask what type of batteries were in laptops and what types were in Ev's so that we could compare them. I believe that my question was answered by you, but then conversation was caused to stray (by someone else) to future tech batteries. So, let's go back to where we were, remind us again what type of batteries are in EVs and what type of batteries are in laptops - and let's compare them on the 'battery university' link?
SimonYorkshire said:
InitialDave said:
Again: Mobile device batteries and charging systems are not the same as those for EVS. This is a false parallel to draw.
It was a pro EV'er who brought up parallels between EV batteries and laptop batteries this time. Parallels have been brought up before. Last time parallels were brought up this battery website was linked to by a pro EV'er. http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_o...
Which prompted me to ask what type of batteries were in laptops and what types were in Ev's so that we could compare them. I believe that my question was answered by you, but then conversation was caused to stray (by someone else) to future tech batteries. So, let's go back to where we were, remind us again what type of batteries are in EVs and what type of batteries are in laptops - and let's compare them on the 'battery university' link?
There's no point putting them in the average laptop with a design life of 2-3 years as the cost is prohibitive.
Of course, you'll just ignore this again and start posting 1,000 words of nonsense, just as you've done throughout this thread.
SimonYorkshire said:
It was a pro EV'er who brought up parallels between EV batteries and laptop batteries this time.
Parallels have been brought up before. Last time parallels were brought up this battery website was linked to by a pro EV'er. http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_o...
Which prompted me to ask what type of batteries were in laptops and what types were in Ev's so that we could compare them. I believe that my question was answered by you, but then conversation was caused to stray (by someone else) to future tech batteries. So, let's go back to where we were, remind us again what type of batteries are in EVs and what type of batteries are in laptops - and let's compare them on the 'battery university' link?
Yes, that link was from me, as a general overview that seems to cover a decent amount of detail on batteries.Parallels have been brought up before. Last time parallels were brought up this battery website was linked to by a pro EV'er. http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_o...
Which prompted me to ask what type of batteries were in laptops and what types were in Ev's so that we could compare them. I believe that my question was answered by you, but then conversation was caused to stray (by someone else) to future tech batteries. So, let's go back to where we were, remind us again what type of batteries are in EVs and what type of batteries are in laptops - and let's compare them on the 'battery university' link?
I am not a "pro EV'er" in the sense you seem to like to try and spin it, that I'm fanatical about them, and this is somehow some kind of weird cult people buy into. I just happen to have owned one for several years, and I understand the benefits and limitations they come with.
If "actually, these things are pretty nice to live with if they fit your usage criteria" is somehow an extreme opinion that's difficult for you to handle as being what a car enthusiast might think, that's your problem.
EVs and laptops? Both batteries are Lithium Ion. This doesn not mean they are the same and more than all hydrocarbon fuels are the same. If you want to know exactly what is used where, do your own research.
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