RE: PH Footnote: The Ineos Grenadier

[Jacob B]

I don't see why they need 200 engineers to invent the wheel again. What the customers want is old school reliable technology like the Landcruiser 70 series.

The concept has been the same for the last 40 years.
Strong live axles front and rear with proper diff locks.
Coil spring suspension.
Strong ladder frame.
4-5L inline 6 diesel engine.
Transmission from a 8 ton truck with transfer case with proper low range.
Practical body with barn doors in the back and large wheel wells that swallows large offroad tires.
Interior that can be washed with a high pressure washer.

[B10]

Shame that they could not use our excellent UK engineers and engineering consultancies like Ricardo. Especially after their jingoistic Brit nonsense. Shame on them.

[cookie1600]

B10 said:

Shame that they could not use our excellent UK engineers and engineering consultancies like Ricardo. Especially after their jingoistic Brit nonsense. Shame on them.

Seconded for Ricardo; very capable for that kind of project.

I keep re-reading the article and I can't see this has anything to do with the Defender or even a Land Rover looking vehicle, other than a similar method of construction and layout.

We are told "The revival of a quintessentially British car, backed by German engineering" But it's not a 'revival' of anything that has gone before. It's not allowed to look like it, it's not allowed to say Land Rover on it. It's a 4x4 that will be engineered in Germany and can't be a Defender clone in any way. You might as well call it a G-Wagon revival.

At least a Bowler has some history it can trace back to the original.

[B10]

This is a kick in then teeth for British engineering "The revival of a quintessentially British car, backed by German engineering".

I doubt Bugatti say German / French car with British engineering. The transaxle / transmission of Veyron was designed, engineered and built by Ricardo.

[Plug Life]

What a bunch of clowns.

[myhandle]

blongs said:

Bring back the Santana!

I'd never heard of them, but spotted this in the Disneyland Paris carpark in the summer. I thought it was a Chinese copy but it turns out a Spanish firm took on the Defender, fixed its problems, upgraded parts and sold them.





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santana_Motor

The angle of the second photo reminds me of the contents page of Performance Car, Fast Lane, or dare I say it, the guilty pleasure that was Max Power. Perhaps the 90s were the good old days. Also, a time when a V8 Defender was (relatively easily) available from the factory.

[smilo996]

A beautiful irony of another British Icon being revult properly by zee germans.
Have to wonder what thenpoint is. My mate still has a Series and it works just fine.

[TooMany2cvs]

blongs said:

Bring back the Santana!

I'd never heard of them, but spotted this in the Disneyland Paris carpark in the summer. I thought it was a Chinese copy but it turns out a Spanish firm took on the Defender, fixed its problems, upgraded parts and sold them.





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santana_Motor

Right through to the very end in 2011, badged as the Iveco Massif, the Santana was still on leaf springs - because their tie-up with Land Rover ended before the change to coils in 1984, they would have had to redesign the suspension themselves. So they're more of an updated Series than an updated Defender...

[Supacat101]

milesr3 said:

Ambitious when the Defender had dropped to under 1,000 units in 2012/13 and peaked at 9,000.

2016   182
2015   1,237
2014   1,147
2013   810
2012   971
2011   1,443
2010   4,117
2009   5,604
2008   8,089
2007   8,137
2006   8,663
2005   8,584
2004   9,006
2003   8,276
2002   7,446
2001   5,326
2000   7,350
1999   6,596
1998   5,428
1997   4,850

Where did you get these figures from:

[Jag_NE]

I have a gut feel that the Grenadier will either be brilliant or a farce.

What troubles me is that he said one of the main things that they want to work on is the quality of the engineering (versus the Defender) and create something comparable (in that regard) to a Landcruiser. Peerless reliability pedigrees aren't usually won overnight, more so built up over decades of obsessive behaviour. Although JLR's quality record is probably mediocre at best, their small army of engineers aren't idiots and the team at INEOS are unlikely to quickly and cheaply achieve the holy grail of a Defenders capabilities with Toyota levels or reliability, as a new start up. If the fixes were cheap and easy, JLR would have done them by now. Build a good product by all means but its going to remain niche regardless of how good it is, so don't waste all the money trying to be Toyota.

I wish them well in any case and admire them for putting their money where their mouth is.

[TooMany2cvs]

Jag_NE said:

I have a gut feel that the Grenadier will either be brilliant or a farce.

I'm going with option 3. Vapourware.

[john2443]

BBC say "A decision is imminent on whether Ineos Automotive will build its new off-road vehicle in Portugal or Bridgend"

So if true (and not just jounalistic bollcoks!) it's still going ahead.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-47162321

[Bodo]

I wonder at which stage this new company is in the light of JLR replacing the Defender with a facelift of the Freelander, and Les Edgar and his TVR have gone all Smolenski about their business.

Good sign from the Grenadier though - they're still hiring, and the vacant positions keep on changing for a year now https://projektgrenadier.com/careers/

[Bodo]

Just seen elsewhere - there was news that the Grenadier has a contract for BMW engines since April https://www.autoblog.com/2019/03/18/ineos-projekt-...

Edited by Bodo on Saturday 20th July 20:02

[cardigankid]

yellowstreak said:

...The MOD has no money so if the British army needs a light offroad vehicle in the UK it will be the 110 wolf or a rental pick up for a long time to come. Any soldier who has a choice takes the Japanese pick up!

Ratcliffe is a serious man and imho this is a serious project.

The above is the point. The Army could use a Toyota pickup. If they buy into this (surely the only point about constructing the car in Britain) and INEOS themselves take a few, that is a hell of a good start.

It is a mistake to regard this as a Defender revival, except at the most conceptual level. The Jeep, Series 1 LR and Toyota Landcruiser are referenced. The Defender lost any credibility as a practical tool a long time ago, and all the (many) pristine highly polished beautifully painted late examples you see driving around with decorative winches and snorkel fittings just look like the pathetic pose mobiles they are. The crude suspension is intolerable. Frankly I wouldn’t want one of these or a Kahn or Twisted model as a gift. They are positively dangerous as a road car, and sitting in the back is like sitting in a tumble dryer.

If he can pull this off and produce a true practical workhorse at an affordable price I for one am up for it. He appears to be using the best engineers he can get and has signed with BMW for diesel and petrol straight sixes, again, the best you can get. There is no bilge about fashionable electric drivetrains. This sounds like a proper car, not a fashion accessory.