Premium Brands - Have Others Caught Up?

[Rawwr]

Ares said:

Apple has all the features you list for RR except exclusivity. I had the misfortune to have a Samsung and a Google phone as a review point earlier this year. The iPhone is a premium product to this. Materials, construction, assembly to say nothing of synergetic use and ease of operation.

Materials? No. Certainly no exotic or expensive materials by any stretch of the imagination. A unique SoC is one thing but the rest of the components are nothing to shout about.
Construction? Nothing exceptional or unusual there and even prone to flaws, such as antennagate and bendgate.
Assembly? Suicidal workers at Foxconn.

They are far, FAR from being similar to a Phantom, however that doesn't change the perception of premium.

[SWoll]

Rawwr said:

Ares said:

Apple has all the features you list for RR except exclusivity. I had the misfortune to have a Samsung and a Google phone as a review point earlier this year. The iPhone is a premium product to this. Materials, construction, assembly to say nothing of synergetic use and ease of operation.

Materials? No. Certainly no exotic or expensive materials by any stretch of the imagination. A unique SoC is one thing but the rest of the components are nothing to shout about.
Construction? Nothing exceptional or unusual there and even prone to flaws, such as antennagate and bendgate.
Assembly? Suicidal workers at Foxconn.

They are far, FAR from being similar to a Phantom, however that doesn't change the perception of premium.

I have a drawer full of old phones at home, filled with models from HTC/Samsung/Sony etc that have accumulated over the years and no longer function. Yet we also have an iPhone 4 that has done the rounds for 6 years or so daily and is still going strong. Same goes for a 1st gen Nano and iPad Air.

Have tried all the alternatives at some point and nothing lasts as long, performs as well or is nicer to use. Hate all the BS that come with Apple products but I find it impossible to argue with the quality.

[Ares]

Rawwr said:

Ares said:

Apple has all the features you list for RR except exclusivity. I had the misfortune to have a Samsung and a Google phone as a review point earlier this year. The iPhone is a premium product to this. Materials, construction, assembly to say nothing of synergetic use and ease of operation.

Materials? No. Certainly no exotic or expensive materials by any stretch of the imagination. A unique SoC is one thing but the rest of the components are nothing to shout about.
Construction? Nothing exceptional or unusual there and even prone to flaws, such as antennagate and bendgate.
Assembly? Suicidal workers at Foxconn.

They are far, FAR from being similar to a Phantom, however that doesn't change the perception of premium.

Far from being the Phantom. Far from the price of a Phantom.

But comparing Apple products with their competition, they beat them in the same way as the Phantom beats its.


I'm tapping away on a MacBook Pro.... Of all the PCs I've come across, none come close in any of those same areas; materials, construction, assembly. Moving on to the operating system, it's a different world.

[ZX10R NIN]

Hungrymc said:

ZX10R NIN said:

Now the interior whilst a decent step up from the Titanium model is still a step behind the premium marketed brands Audi/Mercedes/BMW but the fit & finish aren't far off.

I'm surprised these Vignale Mondeo's aren't a more common sight. I don't think the current car is much of a step on from previous (CD345) but the Vignale trim level which is new with this generation is very strong. Where do you see the gap / how would you describe the step from it to a "premium" brand?

I'd say it's in the dash area & some of the switchgear isn't upto the main 3's level, ride comfort etc are all in good supply but you can see it's not right up there with the other 3, but they've got enough right to get my mum (who's a badge snob) to decide that the Edge Vignale is the one she wants after test driving the big 3 & the V60 & seeing what she'd get for her budget (not before asking me if I could get her a black Ford badge) shes decided on the Edge as it ticked more boxes for her plus she didn't feel it was to big a step down from the other 3, she felt the fit & finish was on par with the Volvo but the Vignale was better equipped & had the better engine.

So after a day of test drives coffee & being told I'm not to old to get a backhander the Vignale has won her over, as a sidebar I made full use of the Vignale privileges & had the main dealer clean the Mondeo whilst we were test driving the Edge.

[daemon]

Rawwr said:

They are far, FAR from being similar to a Phantom, however that doesn't change the perception of premium.

Which fits exactly with the definition of a premium brand - "In marketing and advertising, premium refers to a segment of a company's brands, products, or services that carry tangible or imaginary surplus value in the upper mid- to high price range. ... The success of a brand is determined by the combination of aforesaid category and the market share."

[Sheepshanks]

daemon said:

Interestingly the stats on Autotrader do broadly support that - if you look at numbers of 2016 Mondeo Vignale versus 2016 Mondeos

Don't know if it's too early yet, but I guess the price premium disappears pretty quickly?

[loose cannon]

AH33 said:

It's not premium if every fker has one

[ZX10R NIN]

daemon said:

KTF said:

daemon said:

I think the problem with the Vignale is that whilst it may be cheaper than "premium" products, its an awful lot more money for what most people deem to be a trim level upgrade.

You can buy a 2017 Titanium 180BHP auto for £18.500, for example

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2017...

OR, for similar money a 320d M Sport with leather, auto etc,

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2017...

OR, for a little more, a 330d Luxury with leather and auto.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2017...

25k is not 'similar money' to an 18k Mondeo though. At nearly 10k more, people looking at the 18k Mondeo are not going to be looking at the 330d either.

This is what i was referring to

ZX10R NIN said:

For the 26k we paid for the 17 plate Vignale you can't get a "Premium" product that's better

That was for a Vignale with: Panoramic Sunroof Auto 210bhp Electric Heated & Air Cooled Memory seats Reversing camera etc none of the cars you list match it trust me I looked long & hard (but the budget was 26k max) also our car was brand new with 25 miles on the (although admittedly already in stock) clock.

Today you could get these:

BMW

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

Mercedes

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

Audi A4

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

Or a Vignale

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

This one is nigh on the same spec (apart the the interior which is Ivory like the one above) as the pool car:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

[anonymous-user]

It's called 'Volkswagen Phaeton Syndrome'

VW can and did make an S-Class model but didn't sell as it has a VW badge. Mercedes can and did make a Golf model and it did sell as it has a Mercedes badge.

Mercedes (or BMW) can charge £100,000(+!) for a new four door Saloon. Ford can't. Ford can charge £30k for a Mondeo, but so can BMW and Mercedes on the equivalent. That's the difference.

I've got a bit of a pet peeve about Audi. They don't seem to offer any real difference to VW or Skoda. It's cliched to say that but it's true. When you're talking about a 4 door 4 pot TDI FWD model there's little difference from the VAG group. Audi seem to have a hell of marketing influence.

[anonymous-user]

Yipper said:

The average cost to design and build an iPhone in a factory is over 2 times higher than the average cost to build an Android phone.

Apple is a premium brand for the smartphone category.

This is true. There is a lot of hate for Apple, which I won't go into here, however the quality of the hardware is always the best in the industry. Not flawless, as nothing is, but as good as it gets.

You see a lot of 7-8 year old Macbooks in use, and there are plenty of people still happily using their 7 year old iPhone 4. This is reflected in the used value of the hardware too. When your margins are as high as Apples you don't need to nickel and dime every single component like Dell, Samsung, or LG do.

[legless]

Kierkegaard said:

I've got a bit of a pet peeve about Audi. They don't seem to offer any real difference to VW or Skoda. It's cliched to say that but it's true. When you're talking about a 4 door 4 pot TDI FWD model there's little difference from the VAG group. Audi seem to have a hell of marketing influence.

I'd agree with you on the transverse models, but the longitudinal platformed models feel a proper step up in terms of refinement, ride and fit and finish.

For example, drive a Passat and an A4 back-to-back and the difference in refinement is night and day. Partly, this is probably down to only having a single cylinder firing next to the bulkhead rather than all four, but even things like the transmissions feel much better. The DLxxx gearboxes are in a different league to the transverse DQxxx models.

[SWoll]

loose cannon said:

AH33 said:

It's not premium if every fker has one

I think you're both confusing premium with exclusive. I've never seen a definition of premium that suggests limited numbers is a pre-requisite.

Kierkegaard said:

It's called 'Volkswagen Phaeton Syndrome'

I've got a bit of a pet peeve about Audi. They don't seem to offer any real difference to VW or Skoda. It's cliched to say that but it's true. When you're talking about a 4 door 4 pot TDI FWD model there's little difference from the VAG group. Audi seem to have a hell of marketing influence.

Currently driving my first ever Audi as a company car (A6) and would have to disagree. Whilst the engine/gearbox is shared with other models in the group it's a match for the equivalent models from BMW/MB (I've had both) and inside is a nicer place to spend time than either and certainly a considerable jump up from any VW/Seat product I've ever been in.

Also, are Audi products really that much more expensive than their VW equivalents? A quick look would suggest a couple of thousand £'s between an A3 and similar Golf when new?

Edited by SWoll on Friday 22 September 20:40

[daemon]

Kierkegaard said:

I've got a bit of a pet peeve about Audi. They don't seem to offer any real difference to VW or Skoda. It's cliched to say that but it's true. When you're talking about a 4 door 4 pot TDI FWD model there's little difference from the VAG group. Audi seem to have a hell of marketing influence.

I agree.

I dont "get" Audis - well the run of the mill ones anyway. You seem to pay a huge premium for not much gain over a VW or Skoda.

If i'm honest i dont particular get SEAT either. I dont really see what they bring to the table that you cant either get with VW for not much more or similar from Skoda for similar pricing.

[anonymous-user]

daemon said:

I agree.

I dont "get" Audis - well the run of the mill ones anyway. You seem to pay a huge premium for not much gain over a VW or Skoda.

If i'm honest i dont particular get SEAT either. I dont really see what they bring to the table that you cant either get with VW for not much more or similar from Skoda for similar pricing.

VAG have been all over the place with their positioning of SEAT for the last 20 years, I really not know if they have a clear idea what the point of it is either. I certainly don't know where it's meant to sit, someone said that it is sporty but I can't say much of their output has ever struck me as even remotely sporty. A lot of the stuff rolling about seems to have weird mini-MPV styling?

I don't even know where it sits price wise compared to the other clearly targeted VAG brands!

[Milemuncher]

Interesting thread.

My take is that as the so-called 'big 3' premium German brands (Audi, BMW, Mercedes) have chased more and more volume the requirement to 'build to a price' has hugely increased and their uniqueness has been diluted. You cannot compare a modern Mercedes with a W123, W124, W126 or W140.

Those cars were engineering rather than marketing led and as a consequence much more exclusive because they were much more expensive to build and to purchase (both in real terms and relative to the rest of the market) than modern Mercs.

BMW was a maker of the best small sports saloon on the market (3-series) and expanded to other parts of the market. As it has expanded, its USP of driving enjoyment in a compact package has been diminished.

Audi established itself through a more marketing led route - first by bringing 4wd to mainstream motorsport through the ur-quattro then by designing a number of models such as the aerodynamic 100 and 80 of the early/mid-80s that were desirable as objects (despite often being no more exciting to drive than the equivalent Passat).

Meanwhile as consolidation of manufacturers both in the manufacturing and component industries has increased and production capabilities have improved, other manufacturers (e.g. the Koreans) have basically copied what the German big 3 have done in an attempt to emulate their success.

The result in my view - and it is only my view, I'm sure many of you will disagree - is that pretty much the entire industry has become manufacturers of white goods that generate profit through their finance arms.

I read a lot about how great the latest Audi and Merc interiors are - and yes, they are generally well built and have good tech - but in terms of quality of materials, engineering and design they are largely homogeneous. Likewise the driving experience which generally revolves around 2 litre 4 pot or 3 litre 6 pot diesels driving through a ZF auto box.

Your choice increasingly comes down to who has the best lease / PCP deal at the time you're looking to change or which one you like the look of best.

There are few real duffers so you're likely to be satisfied with your choice but none of these marques can be considered aspirational or premium in the same way that they once were.

[PeteinSQ]

I'm leasing an M140i and it's nice enough inside, however a colleague has a Mercedes c class amg estate with lots of extras and it is much, much, much nicer inside than my car. Mine drives better though.

[daemon]

ZX10R NIN said:

That was for a Vignale with: Panoramic Sunroof Auto 210bhp Electric Heated & Air Cooled Memory seats Reversing camera etc none of the cars you list match it trust me I looked long & hard (but the budget was 26k max) also our car was brand new with 25 miles on the (although admittedly already in stock) clock.

Today you could get these:

BMW

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

Mercedes

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

Audi A4

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

Or a Vignale

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

This one is nigh on the same spec (apart the the interior which is Ivory like the one above) as the pool car:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

I think you're being a bit harsh on BMW there - you can easily get a 6 cylinder 330d M Sport for that money

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2017...

Might not be absolutely as highly spec'd but its running a 6 cylinder 3.0 engine.

[Stick Legs]

Interesting.

My take on it, after having driven predominantly BMW's for the last 20 years is this.

BMW E21 320. To be honest the bits you see and touch are not that great compared to a Capri of similar vinatge. The build quality and oily bits are a different matter. That's where the money went.

BMW E28 528i Again, compare to a Granada Mk2 Ghia 2.8i the bits you see and touch are very much of the same ilk. In fact the BMW looks lowly specced with acres of black plastic and cloth covered cardboard door linings. However strip down a BMW M30 6 cylinder or a Cologne V6 and the difference is massive!

BMW E34 535i Now BMW start to make cars that look and feel inside as good as the engineering underneath. Granada Scorpio seems a bit cheap in comparison.

BMW E39 vs a Vauxhall Omega Elite. Omega has the toys but BMW feels more quality.

Today if you drive the lower end of BMW's range, and I have owned a F20 1 series and a F30 3 series and the quality is not amazingly better than the Focus' I get as hire cars.
However the 5/6/7 series are a lot nicer and represent a step up.

Premium? sure.

[ZX10R NIN]

daemon said:

I think you're being a bit harsh on BMW there - you can easily get a 6 cylinder 330d M Sport for that money

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2017...

Might not be absolutely as highly spec'd but its running a 6 cylinder 3.0 engine.

No 3.0's weren't allowed (Accountant said no) but the lack of spec would partially be tempered by the bigger engine but I like to have a panoramic/sunroof on my cars as I said there are no wrong answers as to which way you go but the Mondeo felt like the better car the more luxurious car (especially space/seating wise) compared to the other 3 at the time.

As I said there are no wrong answers whichever way you go but I do think the more mainstream car makers have got a lot closer, they lose out to those seeking the badge & supposed extra kudos that brings (this coming from someone who has a few Mercedes) I feel the big three have started to use cheaper materials my E Coupe doesn't feel as well built as my CLK & feels cheaper I've spent a fair bit bringing it up to what I felt was the standard it should have been.

The new E coupe feels a bit more special & also seems to use better quality materials inside.

[daemon]

ZX10R NIN said:

daemon said:

I think you're being a bit harsh on BMW there - you can easily get a 6 cylinder 330d M Sport for that money

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2017...

Might not be absolutely as highly spec'd but its running a 6 cylinder 3.0 engine.

No 3.0's weren't allowed (Accountant said no) but the lack of spec would partially be tempered by the bigger engine but I like to have a panoramic/sunroof on my cars as I said there are no wrong answers as to which way you go but the Mondeo felt like the better car the more luxurious car (especially space/seating wise) compared to the other 3 at the time.

As I said there are no wrong answers whichever way you go but I do think the more mainstream car makers have got a lot closer, they lose out to those seeking the badge & supposed extra kudos that brings (this coming from someone who has a few Mercedes) I feel the big three have started to use cheaper materials my E Coupe doesn't feel as well built as my CLK & feels cheaper I've spent a fair bit bringing it up to what I felt was the standard it should have been.

The new E coupe feels a bit more special & also seems to use better quality materials inside.

Oh aye, i've no doubt your company had constraints - i just mean relative to whats out there for anyone thinking of spending Vignale money.

I wouldnt be adverse to one. I do like something a bit different so i will keep an eye on the prices (Passat still looking likely to be going)