Premium Brands - Have Others Caught Up?

[ZX10R NIN]

daemon said:

Oh aye, i've no doubt your company had constraints - i just mean relative to whats out there for anyone thinking of spending Vignale money.

I wouldnt be adverse to one. I do like something a bit different so i will keep an eye on the prices (Passat still looking likely to be going)

I get where you're coming from but I'd say have a look & drive in one you might find yourself pleasantly surprised as I said the real giveaway of it's mainstream roots, is the dash & centre console.

I thought you'd sold the Passat or has the family member backed out?

[daemon]

ZX10R NIN said:

daemon said:

Oh aye, i've no doubt your company had constraints - i just mean relative to whats out there for anyone thinking of spending Vignale money.

I wouldnt be adverse to one. I do like something a bit different so i will keep an eye on the prices (Passat still looking likely to be going)

I get where you're coming from but I'd say have a look & drive in one you might find yourself pleasantly surprised as I said the real giveaway of it's mainstream roots, is the dash & centre console.

I thought you'd sold the Passat or has the family member backed out?

Its still on the cards. If they come through it will be going shortly. If not i'll review it again at the turn of the year.

I have a soft spot for an Insignia SRi 2.0T SIDI at around £15K odd for a 2016 one seems cracking value. A 2017 with leather can be bought for £18K odd from a VX dealer...

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2017...

If i went for a Vignale it would be a 2.0 petrol variant which seem a bit cheaper than the 210 TDI

[ZX10R NIN]

The Vauxhalls are GVFM at the moment although you're definitely a step down from the Vignale & two down from the big three but well worth a look & test drive.

Saying that I'd grab the VXR these are such an underrated car & they go so well (I will that they're much better after being remapped which cures the flat midrange) & if you can find one in a subtle colour they really are worth further investigation.

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

[turbobloke]

Stick Legs said:

However the 5/6/7 series are a lot nicer and represent a step up.
.

There are engine options with BMWs and Mercs that have no "equivalent Passat" option, 4, 5 and 6 litre n.a. and turbo variants, and if we're looking at so-called premium brands these need looking at as well as base models.

[SWoll]

daemon said:

Its still on the cards. If they come through it will be going shortly. If not i'll review it again at the turn of the year.

I have a soft spot for an Insignia SRi 2.0T SIDI at around £15K odd for a 2016 one seems cracking value. A 2017 with leather can be bought for £18K odd from a VX dealer...

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2017...

If i went for a Vignale it would be a 2.0 petrol variant which seem a bit cheaper than the 210 TDI

£18k is still a lot of money to hand over for a car that offers nothing more than the bare minimum required to serve as transport though? I had one as a hire car for about 3 months earlier this year whilst waiting for my new CC to arrive and covered about 5k in it. I handed it back at 6 months old with about 7k on the clock and it felt like a much older car than that. Utterly devoid of character, badly put together and really showing it's age.

My FIL has a 2016 Vignale Estate with every conceivable option fitted and it's a lovely car. Well built, very comfortable and enjoyable to drive. I'm sure it'll depreciate like a stone but as he's just retired and plans to keep it for 10 years not an issue for him. He also got a massive discount on it at only 6 months old and about 2k miles.

turbobloke said:

Stick Legs said:

However the 5/6/7 series are a lot nicer and represent a step up.
.

There are engine options with BMWs and Mercs that have no "equivalent Passat" option, 4, 5 and 6 litre n.a. and turbo variants, and if we're looking at so-called premium brands these need looking at as well as base models.

Even the 520D feels like a much more premium product than anything offered by Ford/Vauxhall/VW and is the point in the range where premium starts to make sense IMHO.

Edited by SWoll on Saturday 23 September 09:05

[g3org3y]

Ares said:

Gad-Westy said:

300bhp/ton said:

E36's have tragically dreadful interiors. Nothing at all premium about them.

Cannot agree with that at all. Look at what other small saloon car interiors looked like in 1990. Sierra, cavalier, Accord, etc. Surely you can see (and feel) the difference?

Totally agree - any car from the 1990s looks st now, every true premium brands.

At the time, the BMW was a world ahead. As was Merc (even moreso)

300bhp/ton in posting bks shocker.

[cerb4.5lee]

SWoll said:

Even the 520D feels like a much more premium product than anything offered by Ford/Vauxhall/VW and is the point in the range where premium starts to make sense IMHO.

The 20d engine isn't especially premium though and it's also available in the 1 series, what I like about the 6 and 7 series is that they're only available with 6 cylinder/V8 engines, so that helps them feel a little more premium.

[Limpet]

I don't know about premium, but I think BMWs still drive nicer than their contemporaries on a like-for-like basis.

As for the whole "premium brand" thing, it's about intangibles mostly. Image, the way it makes you feel to use it and to own it. To cite an extreme example, a £9 Casio F-91W gives you the time just as accurately and easily as a £10,000 Breitling Chronomat, but that's not what it's about.

[SWoll]

g3org3y said:

Ares said:

Gad-Westy said:

300bhp/ton said:

E36's have tragically dreadful interiors. Nothing at all premium about them.

Cannot agree with that at all. Look at what other small saloon car interiors looked like in 1990. Sierra, cavalier, Accord, etc. Surely you can see (and feel) the difference?

Totally agree - any car from the 1990s looks st now, every true premium brands.

At the time, the BMW was a world ahead. As was Merc (even moreso)

300bhp/ton in posting bks shocker.

E36 still my favourite BMW interior. Gloriously driver focussed, lovely low seating position, fantastic thin rimmed steering wheels and one of BMW's best manual gearboxes. Also felt like it was built from granite.

Edited by SWoll on Saturday 23 September 09:32

cerb4.5lee said:

SWoll said:

Even the 520D feels like a much more premium product than anything offered by Ford/Vauxhall/VW and is the point in the range where premium starts to make sense IMHO.

The 20d engine isn't especially premium though and it's also available in the 1 series, what I like about the 6 and 7 series is that they're only available with 6 cylinder/V8 engines, so that helps them feel a little more premium.

It's still feels a premium drivertrain though, especially when mated to the ZF8 gearbox.You can also get the 35i, 40i and 35D in the 1/3 series so it's only really the slowly disappearing V8's that are a bit more exclusive.

Edited by SWoll on Saturday 23 September 09:40

[Ares]

ZX10R NIN said:

No 3.0's weren't allowed (Accountant said no) .....

That's as relevant as my accountant banning German cars because his granddad died in WW2.

[daemon]

SWoll said:

daemon said:

Its still on the cards. If they come through it will be going shortly. If not i'll review it again at the turn of the year.

I have a soft spot for an Insignia SRi 2.0T SIDI at around £15K odd for a 2016 one seems cracking value. A 2017 with leather can be bought for £18K odd from a VX dealer...

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2017...

If i went for a Vignale it would be a 2.0 petrol variant which seem a bit cheaper than the 210 TDI

£18k is still a lot of money to hand over for a car that offers nothing more than the bare minimum required to serve as transport though? I had one as a hire car for about 3 months earlier this year whilst waiting for my new CC to arrive and covered about 5k in it. I handed it back at 6 months old with about 7k on the clock and it felt like a much older car than that. Utterly devoid of character, badly put together and really showing it's age.

My FIL has a 2016 Vignale Estate with every conceivable option fitted and it's a lovely car. Well built, very comfortable and enjoyable to drive. I'm sure it'll depreciate like a stone but as he's just retired and plans to keep it for 10 years not an issue for him. He also got a massive discount on it at only 6 months old and about 2k miles.

turbobloke said:

Stick Legs said:

However the 5/6/7 series are a lot nicer and represent a step up.
.

There are engine options with BMWs and Mercs that have no "equivalent Passat" option, 4, 5 and 6 litre n.a. and turbo variants, and if we're looking at so-called premium brands these need looking at as well as base models.

Even the 520D feels like a much more premium product than anything offered by Ford/Vauxhall/VW and is the point in the range where premium starts to make sense IMHO.

Edited by SWoll on Saturday 23 September 09:05

I had a 2010 Insignia SRI 2.0CDTI 160BHP and a remap to 190BHP and i liked it. It had the alloy wheel upgrade to 18 inch, good spec, 6 speed box and a decent turn of speed.

I'd imagine your hire car was a standard spec SRi at best with maybe the 140BHP diesel engine or the 1.4T petrol?

I guess the appeal of the SIDI variant would be the 247BHP as standard that looks like its a 140BHP diesel. Also they can be got with a decent spec - NAV, leather, auto, etc.

I'd ideally want something very fresh as i want a car under manufacturers warranty, and as much as possible of it.

I probably wouldnt go for that 2017 car i put it up more for comparison to the Vignale at say £25K. I think that 2016 car @ around £15K is exceptional value for money.

I basically like a big VFM cruiser as our second car. The A45 takes car of our speed needs and then something big and harmless looking for the long runs, weekends away with the folks, and for shopping centre runs, etc.

[daemon]

SWoll said:

Even the 520D feels like a much more premium product than anything offered by Ford/Vauxhall/VW and is the point in the range where premium starts to make sense IMHO.

I'd agree with that. You are at that point starting to get something worthwhile over a Ford / Vauxhall / VW offering particularly if you can stretch the budget to a 6 cyl variant.

[SWoll]

daemon said:

I had a 2010 Insignia SRI 2.0CDTI 160BHP and a remap to 190BHP and i liked it. It had the alloy wheel upgrade to 18 inch, good spec, 6 speed box and a decent turn of speed.

I'd imagine your hire car was a standard spec SRi at best with maybe the 140BHP diesel engine or the 1.4T petrol?

I guess the appeal of the SIDI variant would be the 247BHP as standard that looks like its a 140BHP diesel. Also they can be got with a decent spec - NAV, leather, auto, etc.

I'd ideally want something very fresh as i want a car under manufacturers warranty, and as much as possible of it.

I probably wouldnt go for that 2017 car i put it up more for comparison to the Vignale at say £25K. I think that 2016 car @ around £15K is exceptional value for money.

I basically like a big VFM cruiser as our second car. The A45 takes car of our speed needs and then something big and harmless looking for the long runs, weekends away with the folks, and for shopping centre runs, etc.

For me the issue with the Insignia wasn't just the engine but the whole package. Everything about it felt like it had been done as cheaply as possible with no consideration given to usage or longevity. There are a lot better cars out there for that kind of money IMHO, the standard Mondeo in Titanium/Titanium X trim being one of them.

[wildcat45]

Milemuncher said:

Interesting thread.

My take is that as the so-called 'big 3' premium German brands (Audi, BMW, Mercedes) have chased more and more volume the requirement to 'build to a price' has hugely increased and their uniqueness has been diluted. You cannot compare a modern Mercedes with a W123, W124, W126 or W140.

Those cars were engineering rather than marketing led and as a consequence much more exclusive because they were much more expensive to build and to purchase (both in real terms and relative to the rest of the market) than modern Mercs.

BMW was a maker of the best small sports saloon on the market (3-series) and expanded to other parts of the market. As it has expanded, its USP of driving enjoyment in a compact package has been diminished.

Audi established itself through a more marketing led route - first by bringing 4wd to mainstream motorsport through the ur-quattro then by designing a number of models such as the aerodynamic 100 and 80 of the early/mid-80s that were desirable as objects (despite often being no more exciting to drive than the equivalent Passat).

Meanwhile as consolidation of manufacturers both in the manufacturing and component industries has increased and production capabilities have improved, other manufacturers (e.g. the Koreans) have basically copied what the German big 3 have done in an attempt to emulate their success.

The result in my view - and it is only my view, I'm sure many of you will disagree - is that pretty much the entire industry has become manufacturers of white goods that generate profit through their finance arms.

I read a lot about how great the latest Audi and Merc interiors are - and yes, they are generally well built and have good tech - but in terms of quality of materials, engineering and design they are largely homogeneous. Likewise the driving experience which generally revolves around 2 litre 4 pot or 3 litre 6 pot diesels driving through a ZF auto box.

Your choice increasingly comes down to who has the best lease / PCP deal at the time you're looking to change or which one you like the look of best.

There are few real duffers so you're likely to be satisfied with your choice but none of these marques can be considered aspirational or premium in the same way that they once were.

I agree, though the marketing teams and die hard fans might not.

The confusing term is "Premium". Its a bit like the term "classic". No one really knows what it means. A clasic car to some is an MGB, to others its something pre-war and so some its a Ford Escort from 1986.

The way we look at and appreciate cars has changed.

Im 47, and in 1984 when i was about 14 we got a new basic E30 BMW 316. It had less kit in it than our old Talbot Horizon - no electric windows, trip computer, cruise control and the like.

But it was a BMW an interesting and coveted alternative to the neighbours Cavaliers Sierras and Montegos. All of which came in sporty or luxury trims like SRi, Ghia etc.

This time was i think the start of the change. If you had a Carlton Royale or Granada you were doing well. The empasis was on the model, not the brand.

A Ford man could jump on the Granada ladder in an L and go all the way up to the Ghia X Executive with leather luxury and electric toys.

Tastes and cultures have changed. A vignale would have been a smash hit in the 1980s. George Cowley would have had one with a phone in the rear armrest. Today a Vignale may be appreciated by many as a well equipped car "but its only a Ford"

The Big Three and also JLR are high end Cavaliers Granadas Carltons and Senators of today with the so called mainstream brands selling the ordinary stuff like they always did but now with Halo models that carry the wrong maker's badge.

[daemon]

SWoll said:

For me the issue with the Insignia wasn't just the engine but the whole package. Everything about it felt like it had been done as cheaply as possible with no consideration given to usage or longevity. There are a lot better cars out there for that kind of money IMHO, the standard Mondeo in Titanium/Titanium X trim being one of them.

I never felt that about the Insignia i had. Mine had 70,000 miles on it and there were no real issues with the car. Everything was still working and was where Vauxhall had put it. I think they are very spec specific. The SRi with the 160BHP engine and the 18s would be my choice of the diesel variants. The SEs etc on the small rims and the 130BHP engine dont work at all for me.

They also got much better with the upgrades over time.

Whilst its never going to set the world on fire, something like this is superb value for money.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2017...

Or a 170BHP diesel variant with Nav for £1,000 odd more

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2017...

Cheapest Mondy Titanium with similar miles. (whilst no doubt the better car) is 40% more in price.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2017...

[ZX10R NIN]

The other thing is that the big 3 depreciate just as badly as the mainstream cars just because there are so many of them on the road at which point the Premium paid over a Vignale/Insignia is irrelevant, at the time it was £1000-2000 to get a decent (but not match) specification car from the big 3.

BMW 3

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

But that does mean you can bag a 330d cheaply (Daemon)

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

C Class

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

A4

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

Vignale

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

Insignia SRI VX Line

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...

Petrol wise I think the big three had/have an advantage engine wise by offering a 3.0 6 cylinder engines for their faster (although vauxhall trumped Ford here by offering the underrated Insignia VXR) models but now they've all gone to a turbo 4 pot I think the price difference will start to close as the big 3's USP is diminished.

[legless]

After my Superb got written off, I had an Insignia 2.0CDTI 160 Elite auto for a few weeks. Seemed a reasonable enough car, but there were a few things that utterly ruined it for me.

The autobox was shocking. It sapped so much power that it made the car significantly slower than it should have been. Away from a roundabout onto a DC, I got comprehensively and easily outdragged by a colleague in his 150PS TDI Passat Estate. It hurt the fuel economy so much too that I was struggling to top 40mpg on a mostly sedate motorway journey.

The seats were utterly appalling, giving me the worst back pain I've ever experienced on a long journey.

Added to this, there were just some annoying little niggles, such as the traction control that would kill the power stone dead for a couple of seconds at the merest hint of wheelspin.

Prior to this, I was quite open-minded about the Insignia and thought that it seemed like a good value barge. After this, I'd never touch one.

[SWoll]

legless said:

After my Superb got written off, I had an Insignia 2.0CDTI 160 Elite auto for a few weeks. Seemed a reasonable enough car, but there were a few things that utterly ruined it for me.

The autobox was shocking. It sapped so much power that it made the car significantly slower than it should have been. Away from a roundabout onto a DC, I got comprehensively and easily outdragged by a colleague in his 150PS TDI Passat Estate. It hurt the fuel economy so much too that I was struggling to top 40mpg on a mostly sedate motorway journey.

The seats were utterly appalling, giving me the worst back pain I've ever experienced on a long journey.

Added to this, there were just some annoying little niggles, such as the traction control that would kill the power stone dead for a couple of seconds at the merest hint of wheelspin.

Prior to this, I was quite open-minded about the Insignia and thought that it seemed like a good value barge. After this, I'd never touch one.

This

Can totally understand why the Mondeo above would be 40% more than the Insignias. Quicker, better spec, more roomy, more comfortable, better to look at and better to drive. Like a car from a different class altogether TBH.

[Hungrymc]

SWoll said:

It's still feels a premium drivertrain though, especially when mated to the ZF8 gearbox.You can also get the 35i, 40i and 35D in the 1/3 series so it's only really the slowly disappearing V8's that are a bit more exclusive.

Edited by SWoll on Saturday 23 September 09:40

I actually disagree on the e36, the only positive was the wrap around nature of the dash. The fit and finish (and ergonomics despite the wrap around) were a bmw low point in my eyes.

The airbag door, glove box, and very fiddly buttons are a disaster in terms of fit and quality. The low point of a pretty good car for me.

[turbobloke]

Hungrymc said:

SWoll said:

It's still feels a premium drivertrain though, especially when mated to the ZF8 gearbox.You can also get the 35i, 40i and 35D in the 1/3 series so it's only really the slowly disappearing V8's that are a bit more exclusive.

Edited by SWoll on Saturday 23 September 09:40

I actually disagree on the e36, the only positive was the wrap around nature of the dash. The fit and finish (and ergonomics despite the wrap around) were a bmw low point in my eyes.

I was still in employment during the early E36 years and went from new Cavalier and Mondeo company cars (2 years at a time) that were chosen for me to a nearly new E36 3-series in self-employment which naturally I got to choose.

The improvement in every area was striking, from the interior to mechanicals and the quality of the driving experience.