Premium Brands - Have Others Caught Up?
Discussion
Is it actually possible to buy a crap car nowadays? I don't think so.
My parents have just bought - to my horror - a SsangYong Rexton. I was prepared to pull it to pieces, so to speak. I was genuinely very surprised - the paint finish, quality of build, how it's screwed together are all top notch. The equipment level is very high (it even has heated rear seats), the dash is nice, especially the clocks. Merc gearbox, their own engine which seemed pretty refined.
Only faults I could really pick it up on was that the seat leather isn't the nicest, the plastics aren't up to German stuff and the "factory fit" satnav/head unit is really just a branded Kenwood with a clunky interface.
It even looks good, IMO, with dark metallic blue paint, nice wheels with diamond cut alloys, privacy glass etc etc.
This is one of the "crap" cars you can buy these days - I like my new Mercs and beyond the crappy leather, some (not all) plastics not being soft touch and the stereo I'd have to say that everything is catching up.
Bet it devalues like a brick though.
My parents have just bought - to my horror - a SsangYong Rexton. I was prepared to pull it to pieces, so to speak. I was genuinely very surprised - the paint finish, quality of build, how it's screwed together are all top notch. The equipment level is very high (it even has heated rear seats), the dash is nice, especially the clocks. Merc gearbox, their own engine which seemed pretty refined.
Only faults I could really pick it up on was that the seat leather isn't the nicest, the plastics aren't up to German stuff and the "factory fit" satnav/head unit is really just a branded Kenwood with a clunky interface.
It even looks good, IMO, with dark metallic blue paint, nice wheels with diamond cut alloys, privacy glass etc etc.
This is one of the "crap" cars you can buy these days - I like my new Mercs and beyond the crappy leather, some (not all) plastics not being soft touch and the stereo I'd have to say that everything is catching up.
Bet it devalues like a brick though.
Deerfoot said:
Sheepshanks said:
Deerfoot said:
I bought my old Accord after trying a 3 series, C Class and A4, the Honda interior was absolutely solid and was still free of rattles and squeaks when it went with 100,000 miles on it.
You're going back years though - of course they haven't sold Accord here for some time. jhonn said:
Ares said:
It's when you sit inside, and even more so drive away that the difference is there.
Can you give an example? F'r instance - by what measures is a current Audi A4 saloon more premium than a similarly specc'd Vauxhall Insignia or Ford Mondeo?
(Genuine question - I haven't driven the Vauxhall or Ford lately)
Sit in - materials, seating position, seats, interior design (although granted, design is subjective), weight of switch gear.
Drive - Weight of steering, body control, refinement, engine responsiveness, feel, driver confidence, feeling of solidity.
Deerfoot said:
Ares said:
I never had an issue with lever control though? Lift, move to position, release.
Which is fine if the position dictated by the notch in the mechanism is suitable, for me it wasn't, the back rest was either a bit too far forward or a bit too far aft (admittedly only by a small amount but enough for me to notice it wasn't ideal).Ares said:
The dial was a lot more guess work as the seat back couldn't be moved whilst leaning against it?
Lean forward, adjust knob, lean back and assess, repeat until satisfactory...- My old (Recaro'd) ITR had a rotary knob for seat-back angle and it was effectively infinitely adjustable. The wife's Golf is the same.
- My current (Honda-seat'd) CTR has a lever (as do all Hondas now), and it's definitely got clear notches which it rests in, and my perfect position is half-way between 2 notches.
The premium answer is electric seats, of course...
Ares said:
Agent XXX said:
BMW isn't a premium brand anymore.
Premium marketing maybe, but in truth they are no better than pretty much anything else.
It took you over 20mins to get in a bPremium marketing maybe, but in truth they are no better than pretty much anything else.
h about BMW. We were worried you'd died.Back to the point. Go sit in a VW or Alfa or Honda... then into an Audi, Merc, BMW. They are still a level ahead both in materials and ergonomics. And I say that as someone that has just bought an Alfa having owned BMWs for 10yrs+!
Sit in a high end Honda, then go back to a rep-mobile 118d. The Honda will be far better. Sit in a retirement spec Jizz, then go to a fully optioned M car, the BMW will be the clear winner.
I've owned Hondas with great interiors, easily the equal of my M240i. If you buy a crap interior, it doesn't matter if its from BMW or Hyundai, its a crap interior. Same with a good interior, the main difference is that Hyundai doesn't offer an expensive leather factory option on an i10.
In the last 10 years, I've owned multiple Hondas and BMWs (a Nissan and a Ford too), interior quality depends on the kind of car you bought, not who made it.
clarkeysntfc said:
I am running around in a Honda Civic (17 plate) on hire from Hertz at the moment. Whilst it feels screwed together OK, the quality of the plastics in key touch-points of the cabin leaves an awful lot to be desired, and frankly much of it feels plain tinny.
Right there is the key difference.Ares said:
FN2TypeR said:
GR_TVR said:
I do think Audi and Mercedes (particularly Audi's new models) are winning the interior game at the moment - they feel a cut above BMW in that department and definitely have that premium feel.
If you're spending good money on a larger car then Volvo has them all beat in my opinion - their V90/S90/XC90 interior is fabulous, it looks great, feels well built and the seats and stereo system are top notchFN2TypeR said:
Ares said:
FN2TypeR said:
GR_TVR said:
I do think Audi and Mercedes (particularly Audi's new models) are winning the interior game at the moment - they feel a cut above BMW in that department and definitely have that premium feel.
If you're spending good money on a larger car then Volvo has them all beat in my opinion - their V90/S90/XC90 interior is fabulous, it looks great, feels well built and the seats and stereo system are top notchFN2TypeR said:
The new ones aren't just good looking, they're made with materials that are clearly good quality
I just wish that were the case with Volvo....across both V90/XC90 I have seen quality issues on the seats...from stitching coming away to the leather peeling with only a few thousand showing.https://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=27...
Some are on their third seat base....
Edited by Ninja59 on Wednesday 20th September 16:13
This is fascinating...... genuinely learning a lot here.
Topic of where to go next, I'll hold fire for now!
I did drive a 10-year old Lexus today. Seats were fab, centre console a bit plasticity.....also far quality less than expected.
My 330i is the same age, and feels miles apart, with cloth!
Topic of where to go next, I'll hold fire for now!
I did drive a 10-year old Lexus today. Seats were fab, centre console a bit plasticity.....also far quality less than expected.
My 330i is the same age, and feels miles apart, with cloth!
LordGrover said:
If only any of them offered a decent cloth interior.
I suspect it may be available in a base spec with no frills but I'm sure I can't be alone preferring quality cloth seats/interiors.
With you there, but apparently Leather = Posh, the masses thinking they have made it because they have a BMW or Audi with some plasticized leather and an LCD screen in the dash of their 3 series or A4 whilst the 20 inch wheels, 30 profile tyres and rock hard suspension do their best to pummel your spine, remember a ride in a colleagues new X5, she was buzzing but it was an unpleasant ride, bouncy and uncomfortable plus she had the aircon set to absolute zero, if thats luxury I was happy with my non luxury, aircon free cloth lined Saab with suspension on the ride home !I suspect it may be available in a base spec with no frills but I'm sure I can't be alone preferring quality cloth seats/interiors.
The cloth option is generally scratchy, horrible and cheap looking, where in the past top end saloons could be had with luxurious types of cloth, velours and that kind of thing, due a comeback, as like the "premium" brands everything ends up with leather seats nowadays, about as "posh" as a bus trip to Poundstretcher.
It used to be the other brands were inferior, say a Sierra next to a 190, but now, not as much in it.
As has been mentioned, where you buy int he range makes a big difference, I drove my MILs C class back to back with my (same year) CLS, and mine is just so much nicer inside.
J4CKO said:
LordGrover said:
If only any of them offered a decent cloth interior.
I suspect it may be available in a base spec with no frills but I'm sure I can't be alone preferring quality cloth seats/interiors.
With you there, but apparently Leather = Posh, the masses thinking they have made it because they have a BMW or Audi with some plasticized leather and an LCD screen in the dash of their 3 series or A4 whilst the 20 inch wheels, 30 profile tyres and rock hard suspension do their best to pummel your spine, remember a ride in a colleagues new X5, she was buzzing but it was an unpleasant ride, bouncy and uncomfortable plus she had the aircon set to absolute zero, if thats luxury I was happy with my non luxury, aircon free cloth lined Saab with suspension on the ride home !I suspect it may be available in a base spec with no frills but I'm sure I can't be alone preferring quality cloth seats/interiors.
The cloth option is generally scratchy, horrible and cheap looking, where in the past top end saloons could be had with luxurious types of cloth, velours and that kind of thing, due a comeback, as like the "premium" brands everything ends up with leather seats nowadays, about as "posh" as a bus trip to Poundstretcher.
It used to be the other brands were inferior, say a Sierra next to a 190, but now, not as much in it.
As has been mentioned, where you buy int he range makes a big difference, I drove my MILs C class back to back with my (same year) CLS, and mine is just so much nicer inside.
I think a lot of the feeling of refinement that premium cars seem to have lost recently is down to the use of huge wheels with low profile tyres and 4 cylinder Diesel engines that feel the same no matter whether you're in a premium or non-premium car.
I hired a Golf with 15" wheels and a 1.2 Turbo Petrol Engine with DSG recently. It was a million times more refined than a 1 series Diesel M Sport Courtesy car I'd had a couple of weeks previously.
I then hired a Peugeot 308 a couple of weeks later - it felt positively luxurious in comparison to any of the BMW's/Audi's I've been in recently. It was so quiet and smooth in comparison - again small wheels, decent suspension travel and a quiet petrol engine.
I hired a Golf with 15" wheels and a 1.2 Turbo Petrol Engine with DSG recently. It was a million times more refined than a 1 series Diesel M Sport Courtesy car I'd had a couple of weeks previously.
I then hired a Peugeot 308 a couple of weeks later - it felt positively luxurious in comparison to any of the BMW's/Audi's I've been in recently. It was so quiet and smooth in comparison - again small wheels, decent suspension travel and a quiet petrol engine.
Dog Star said:
Is it actually possible to buy a crap car nowadays? I don't think so.
My parents have just bought - to my horror - a SsangYong Rexton. I was prepared to pull it to pieces, so to speak. I was genuinely very surprised - the paint finish, quality of build, how it's screwed together are all top notch. The equipment level is very high (it even has heated rear seats), the dash is nice, especially the clocks. Merc gearbox, their own engine which seemed pretty refined.
Only faults I could really pick it up on was that the seat leather isn't the nicest, the plastics aren't up to German stuff and the "factory fit" satnav/head unit is really just a branded Kenwood with a clunky interface.
It even looks good, IMO, with dark metallic blue paint, nice wheels with diamond cut alloys, privacy glass etc etc.
This is one of the "crap" cars you can buy these days - I like my new Mercs and beyond the crappy leather, some (not all) plastics not being soft touch and the stereo I'd have to say that everything is catching up.
Bet it devalues like a brick though.
Yes, the reality is, all car makers today all buy from the same top 5 to 10 component / chassis suppliers. They are all buying the same underlying products and just giving them a different external shape, make up a silly brand, and then guess a price.My parents have just bought - to my horror - a SsangYong Rexton. I was prepared to pull it to pieces, so to speak. I was genuinely very surprised - the paint finish, quality of build, how it's screwed together are all top notch. The equipment level is very high (it even has heated rear seats), the dash is nice, especially the clocks. Merc gearbox, their own engine which seemed pretty refined.
Only faults I could really pick it up on was that the seat leather isn't the nicest, the plastics aren't up to German stuff and the "factory fit" satnav/head unit is really just a branded Kenwood with a clunky interface.
It even looks good, IMO, with dark metallic blue paint, nice wheels with diamond cut alloys, privacy glass etc etc.
This is one of the "crap" cars you can buy these days - I like my new Mercs and beyond the crappy leather, some (not all) plastics not being soft touch and the stereo I'd have to say that everything is catching up.
Bet it devalues like a brick though.
Yipper said:
Yes, the reality is, all car makers today all buy from the same top 5 to 10 component / chassis suppliers. They are all buying the same underlying products and just giving them a different external shape, make up a silly brand, and then guess a price.
Shh! Don't shatter the illusion of bespoke ABS plastics for BMW and Mercedes!Possibly an unusual opinion this, but I actually think the prevalence of touch screens is contributing towards the lessened perceived difference in quality between premium and mainstream interiors. All touch screens pretty much look the same, whereas with analogue switchgear you were able to get a tactile feel for quality.
I'd also agree to an extent with those who have said it's a spec dependent issue - sit in an ES spec E90 and then an M-Sport for example and the difference is alarming. The ES has the most awful brittle plastic heater controls, for example.
I'd also agree to an extent with those who have said it's a spec dependent issue - sit in an ES spec E90 and then an M-Sport for example and the difference is alarming. The ES has the most awful brittle plastic heater controls, for example.
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