Whose fault is it if a cyclist "T-bones" you at a T-junction
Discussion
What is considered a safe and reasonable speed to filter along the left hand side of stationary traffic through a junction? Or is it fair game up to and beyond the speed limit (push bike's, speed limits etc)?
I take the role of the cyclist in this situation regularly on a push bike and a motorcycle (motorbike is often filtering on the right and a car turns right from a side road across your path). I make sure it can't be my fault and try to ensure it doesn't happen by being particularly cautious and not assuming I have priority because I know my filtering makes it very hard for drivers to see me.
I suspect if the car could present data that he was slow and cautious, and stopped as soon as the bike became visible, but the bike unable to stop either due to speed or having no brakes that the liability wouldn't be quite as straightforward as many are suggesting.
I take the role of the cyclist in this situation regularly on a push bike and a motorcycle (motorbike is often filtering on the right and a car turns right from a side road across your path). I make sure it can't be my fault and try to ensure it doesn't happen by being particularly cautious and not assuming I have priority because I know my filtering makes it very hard for drivers to see me.
I suspect if the car could present data that he was slow and cautious, and stopped as soon as the bike became visible, but the bike unable to stop either due to speed or having no brakes that the liability wouldn't be quite as straightforward as many are suggesting.
Hungrymc said:
What is considered a safe and reasonable speed to filter along the left-hand side of stationary traffic through a junction? Or is it fair game up to and beyond the speed limit (push bike's, speed limits etc)?
I take the role of the cyclist in this situation regularly on a push bike and a motorcycle (motorbike is often filtering on the right and a car turns right from a side road across your path). I make sure it can't be my fault and try to ensure it doesn't happen by being particularly cautious and not assuming I have priority because I know my filtering makes it very hard for drivers to see me.
I suspect if the car could present data that he was slow and cautious, and stopped as soon as the bike became visible, but the bike unable to stop either due to speed or having no brakes that the liability wouldn't be quite as straightforward as many are suggesting.
Absolutely agreed. This is the distinction between a pedestrian standing by a kerb where there is a very strong presumption that a competent driver would be expected to see them and a cyclist or motorcyclist travelling at speed and hence not visible.I take the role of the cyclist in this situation regularly on a push bike and a motorcycle (motorbike is often filtering on the right and a car turns right from a side road across your path). I make sure it can't be my fault and try to ensure it doesn't happen by being particularly cautious and not assuming I have priority because I know my filtering makes it very hard for drivers to see me.
I suspect if the car could present data that he was slow and cautious, and stopped as soon as the bike became visible, but the bike unable to stop either due to speed or having no brakes that the liability wouldn't be quite as straightforward as many are suggesting.
Hungrymc said:
What is considered a safe and reasonable speed to filter along the left hand side of stationary traffic through a junction? Or is it fair game up to and beyond the speed limit (push bike's, speed limits etc)?
This is the crux of the matter.Cyclist should apply the same rule of thumb expected of drivers, being able to stop in the distance that can be seen to be clear. If the cyclist is moving sufficient fast so they cannot stop in time and the driver has moved cautiously. They should be deemed at fault.
4x4Tyke said:
This is the crux of the matter.
Cyclist should apply the same rule of thumb expected of drivers, being able to stop in the distance that can be seen to be clear. If the cyclist is moving sufficient fast so they cannot stop in time and the driver has moved cautiously. They should be deemed at fault.
How would you define the distance seen to be clear, and is that before or after an inattentive car driver has cut across your path?Cyclist should apply the same rule of thumb expected of drivers, being able to stop in the distance that can be seen to be clear. If the cyclist is moving sufficient fast so they cannot stop in time and the driver has moved cautiously. They should be deemed at fault.
As a cyclist I try to be aware of situations like that and avoid them. I'd be ready for a car to turn across my path in that situation. However it's not always possible, I've nearly been wiped out like that.
I was doing 20mph and keeping left, traffic ahead of me faster at around 30mph so opening up a gap in front of me. Car behind me accelerates to overtake. Within seconds of overtaking they brake, coming to a stop (whilst more than likely flashing the oncoming/turning car).
Which puts me in the exact situation shown in the original image. I'm at speed on the left of a stopping car, with an oncoming car starting to turn across my path who isn't aware I'm there.
Leaves me with the split second decision of whether to try and brake (and if I can stop within that distance without going over the handlebars) or if I should continue (even speeding up) to try and make it past the turning car before it can hit me.
Hopefully I've explained that ok. As a cyclist you've done nothing wrong, but are facing an extremely dangerous situation. Which is why it has to be the responsibility of the car turning to make sure it's clear.
I was doing 20mph and keeping left, traffic ahead of me faster at around 30mph so opening up a gap in front of me. Car behind me accelerates to overtake. Within seconds of overtaking they brake, coming to a stop (whilst more than likely flashing the oncoming/turning car).
Which puts me in the exact situation shown in the original image. I'm at speed on the left of a stopping car, with an oncoming car starting to turn across my path who isn't aware I'm there.
Leaves me with the split second decision of whether to try and brake (and if I can stop within that distance without going over the handlebars) or if I should continue (even speeding up) to try and make it past the turning car before it can hit me.
Hopefully I've explained that ok. As a cyclist you've done nothing wrong, but are facing an extremely dangerous situation. Which is why it has to be the responsibility of the car turning to make sure it's clear.
gazza285 said:
How would you define the distance seen to be clear, and is that before or after an inattentive car driver has cut across your path?
That's a fair question. The rule of thumb I try to follow is that I have to be able to stop when filtering for pedestrians and all sorts...thats if there is no particular gap in the cars.When approaching a junction, if there is a gap in the queued traffic, right at the junction, I assume something is probably going to appear in it and slow more and take extra care.
I'm certainly not trying to say it's the bike's fault in the OP. I'm merely pointing out that in some circumstances it's not as black and white as many are making out.
I've ridden badly in the past when filtering, I've had near misses, and I know my riding made it very, very hard for the driver. I try not to do that now.... But when all is said and done, that will never excuse a driver bolting through a gap without taking care.
Brads67 said:
luckily in Scotland the blame would lie entirely with you anyway, but 100% your fault anyway for not looking for cyclists.
You appear to be a little hard of reading. The OP explicitly stated " Despite the fact that I was leaning forward in my seat looking down the lane of traffic of in order to try to avoid this exact situation"The answer to this is that its a fifty/fifty.
At least that was the decision I had from my insurance company when I was T Boned by a car pulling out of a junction and I was filtering along the main road on a motorcycle.
The bike is classed as overtaking at a road junction because on the diagram drawn, the yellow lines stop for the junction.
You are only allowed to overtake at road junction if the way is clear. The bike should slow up at every junction when its filtering to check if its safe to overtake/filter there.
This was confirmed by both my insurance company and a phonecall to the police at th etime because I was quite upset that a car could pull out and hit me and call it 50/50.
If the yellow lines cross the junction then the fault is 100% with the car/bike whatever pulling out into/turning into the road.
At least that was the decision I had from my insurance company when I was T Boned by a car pulling out of a junction and I was filtering along the main road on a motorcycle.
The bike is classed as overtaking at a road junction because on the diagram drawn, the yellow lines stop for the junction.
You are only allowed to overtake at road junction if the way is clear. The bike should slow up at every junction when its filtering to check if its safe to overtake/filter there.
This was confirmed by both my insurance company and a phonecall to the police at th etime because I was quite upset that a car could pull out and hit me and call it 50/50.
If the yellow lines cross the junction then the fault is 100% with the car/bike whatever pulling out into/turning into the road.
Even though legally they won't be responsible, the person who flashes you across should check their mirrors for vehicle behind including cyclists and motorcyclists.
They are the one who is "initiating" the turn in.
The problem is very few people have the judgment and awareness to fully check before flashing someone across.
As a filtering motorcyclist it's an issue more with people being flashed out.
They are the one who is "initiating" the turn in.
The problem is very few people have the judgment and awareness to fully check before flashing someone across.
As a filtering motorcyclist it's an issue more with people being flashed out.
2wheelsjimmy said:
julian64 said:
At least that was the decision I had from my insurance company when I was T Boned by a car pulling out of a junction and I was filtering along the main road on a motorcycle.
Motorcycle is not bicycle, so you can't base your case history on a decision. I guess my view in summary is that its most likely responsibility will be with the car, but there is a consideration to cyclists speed and position. I don't think it sensible to think that the cyclist is automatically exempt from any responsibility irrespective of how they were riding (I kind of think the opposite when I'm cycling, that I have to protect myself). The lad who got jail for killing the pedestrian was mainly held responsible because of the nature of his riding and the fact that his bike was illegal / unsafe... There are other factors than just who was where, and what manoeuvre was being performed.
At uni I was knocked off my bike 3 times - all of them were pretty similar to this.
First one I was in a bus/taxi/cycle lane which was completley clear, so I was probably doing about 20mph. Traffic stationary on my right. Someone in queue of stationary cars leaves a gap for someone to turn right into their office car park (very similar to what the OP did, except I was in a lane of my own and not filtering/in a cycle lane) and I just managed to swerve, the only impact was my right foot on his bumper, which had enough force to unclip it from my pedal.
The second and 3rd happened in the same place as each other and in practically the same manner.
Old dorris just turned right across me - I wasn't filtering and was in moving traffic, but the guy driving behind me slowed and flashed - I had nowhere to go and had the splt second choice of her car or the pavement. It surprised me how much a 68kg lycra clad cyclist would dent a fiesta bonnet. I also didnt expect a cheap shimano brake lever (Sora - cheapo commuter) to be far stronger than ford paint. The front of her car ended up looking like some sort of 3d modern art. Stupid old bint wouldn't even apologise.
Exactly the same thing happened at the same junction, except it was a transit connect and I was riding my 20kg DH bike and wearing a full face helmet and body armour (far easier wearing it than carrying it) cycling home after getting dropped off. It did't surprise me at all that you can cause a significant amount of damage to the side of a van quite easilly.
For all 3, I couldn't have done a lot - arguably for the first one I could have been going slower, but then I would be in the way of Busses/Taxis using the lane. Not much to add - of course it is the car's fault - anyone who said "50/50" or that it is the cyclist's fault should probably hand in their licence.
As to what you do about it in a situation like this, I'm not actually sure - the Z4 has a mahoosive bonnet and more than once I have edged out at a junction and had to stop because of something I would have no chance of seeing - move slowly and cross you fingers doesn't sound right, but what else can you do?
First one I was in a bus/taxi/cycle lane which was completley clear, so I was probably doing about 20mph. Traffic stationary on my right. Someone in queue of stationary cars leaves a gap for someone to turn right into their office car park (very similar to what the OP did, except I was in a lane of my own and not filtering/in a cycle lane) and I just managed to swerve, the only impact was my right foot on his bumper, which had enough force to unclip it from my pedal.
The second and 3rd happened in the same place as each other and in practically the same manner.
Old dorris just turned right across me - I wasn't filtering and was in moving traffic, but the guy driving behind me slowed and flashed - I had nowhere to go and had the splt second choice of her car or the pavement. It surprised me how much a 68kg lycra clad cyclist would dent a fiesta bonnet. I also didnt expect a cheap shimano brake lever (Sora - cheapo commuter) to be far stronger than ford paint. The front of her car ended up looking like some sort of 3d modern art. Stupid old bint wouldn't even apologise.
Exactly the same thing happened at the same junction, except it was a transit connect and I was riding my 20kg DH bike and wearing a full face helmet and body armour (far easier wearing it than carrying it) cycling home after getting dropped off. It did't surprise me at all that you can cause a significant amount of damage to the side of a van quite easilly.
For all 3, I couldn't have done a lot - arguably for the first one I could have been going slower, but then I would be in the way of Busses/Taxis using the lane. Not much to add - of course it is the car's fault - anyone who said "50/50" or that it is the cyclist's fault should probably hand in their licence.
As to what you do about it in a situation like this, I'm not actually sure - the Z4 has a mahoosive bonnet and more than once I have edged out at a junction and had to stop because of something I would have no chance of seeing - move slowly and cross you fingers doesn't sound right, but what else can you do?
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