RE: Aston Martin returns to Formula One

[DonkeyApple]

Ninja59 said:

Fetchez la vache said:

Is it just me or does an "engine partnership" sound a bit weird when they're "new" road engines are for all intents and purposes, Merc engines... ?

Only the V8 though, we will ignore most of the actual electrical side...

The V12 is still very much not Merc.

Yup. That's a Ford. Also made in Germany though.

It's great that AM are finally back to the point where they have the capital and income to do this but they've been away so long it does seem strange to see them involved in modern F1 and it certainly seems strange seeing them tied in with a team that was rumoured to have been about to use Honda? As well as still strange to see the brand of AM tied with RB.

[thegreenhell]

The Porsche rumour never seemed to have any weight to it. It's odd that it started at the same time as the rumour that Renault are about to drop Red Bull from the end of next year. I can't help thinking that the Porsche rumour was 'leaked' (ie made up) by someone connected to Red Bull as a distraction from the whole Renault-Honda switcharoo to make it look less like they're being left with the stty end of the stick with no other options.

I read another story this morning in which Helmut Marko is quoted as saying "It (Aston Martin) is a financial cooperation that has nothing to do with the power train".

[Krikkit]

PhantomPH said:

Fair point. - although I cannot imagine a return to true NA. Hybrid will always be part of things now. One thing I have not noticed at all this season, is any mention of fuel saving. I feel like that's long since gone away and is a far cry from previous years where we saw the racing all but stop after half the race, so that they could reduce fuel usage. Doesn't seem to ever be mentioned anymore.

Interesting comments above regarding Cosworth being 'sponsored' by certain teams like Aston/McLaren etc. Cosworth obviously have a long F1 history and could actually stand alone as a brand if they were to become an engine supplier - but I guess they need the money of the aforementioned sponsors to actually make this viable?


Perhaps I have not read it properly, but does this mean Aston Martin are replacing Red Bull as the 'team name'. or is it something else? Put it another way - will we here martin Brundle saying, "The Astons are a serious threat this weekend" instead of "The Red Bulls are a serious thread this weekend"? Or will the new "Aston Martin Red Bull Racing" moniker be like when the fat guy renamed St James Park and everyone ignored the rebrand?

I think hybrid will stay, but I suspect something a little more fearsome is on the cards.

Cosworth don't have the cash/time to make a competitive engine in the current formula, but they could want to make a new lower-cost engine under the new regs.

Quite a few teams have had "title" sponsors over the years, for example Red Bull used to be "Infiniti Red Bull" until not quite so long ago, and the commentators are supposed to use the full title at various stages. Chances are they'd still call it a Red Bull for as long as the livery is recognisable.

[redroadster]

Great brands worldwide coverage ,money pit sport hmmmmm

[suffolk009]

I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that Aston Martin are about to design and build an F1 engine, are they?

This is just some money for their name on the side of the car.

As far as Aston Martin designing an engine goes, I suppose they might rebadge a Cosworth, IF Cosworth re-enter F1 as an Engine builder in 2020 (or is it 2021?). McLaren would probably quite like to do the same.

[LewisR]

What powertrain capability has Aston Martin ever had since 2000 ?
It was all done by Jaguar or Ford back then, or 3rd party establishments.

[RacerMike]

LewisR said:

What powertrain capability has Aston Martin ever had since 2000 ?
It was all done by Jaguar or Ford back then, or 3rd party establishments.

Are there actually many OEMs that do their own powertrain design anymore? Even inhouse stuff is largely done with significant supplier input from people like Ricardo and Mahle...

[Robmarriott]

RacerMike said:

LewisR said:

What powertrain capability has Aston Martin ever had since 2000 ?
It was all done by Jaguar or Ford back then, or 3rd party establishments.

Are there actually many OEMs that do their own powertrain design anymore? Even inhouse stuff is largely done with significant supplier input from people like Ricardo and Mahle...

As an aside, over the years, how many engines did Aston Martin ever actually make themselves? 2? possibly 3 if you count the DB7's Jaguar based unit?

Genuine question, I'm intrigued.

[ZX10R NIN]

RC1807 said:

Andy Palmer said at the Singapore GP that AM were researching the future engine regulations to see what they may be able to do, i.e. develop their own F1 engine for RBR. Great branding opportunities for both AM & RBR, more than now.

Ricciardo & Verstappen will also have very nice "company cars", I'm sure.

They already get an Aston (decked out in Redbull livery) to drive at every race.

[thegreenhell]

ZX10R NIN said:

RC1807 said:

Andy Palmer said at the Singapore GP that AM were researching the future engine regulations to see what they may be able to do, i.e. develop their own F1 engine for RBR. Great branding opportunities for both AM & RBR, more than now.

Ricciardo & Verstappen will also have very nice "company cars", I'm sure.

They already get an Aston (decked out in Redbull livery) to drive at every race.

They even get a company caravan to go with it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZPe08qJjfk

[LewisR]

RacerMike said:

LewisR said:

What powertrain capability has Aston Martin ever had since 2000 ?
It was all done by Jaguar or Ford back then, or 3rd party establishments.

Are there actually many OEMs that do their own powertrain design anymore? Even inhouse stuff is largely done with significant supplier input from people like Ricardo and Mahle...

Yes, I can vouch that Jaguar Landrover do. The only time they used outsourcing recently is because they had more engine programmes than they had people to do them, so some parts of some programmes were sent out, most stayed in house.

[PhantomPH]

LewisR said:

RacerMike said:

LewisR said:

What powertrain capability has Aston Martin ever had since 2000 ?
It was all done by Jaguar or Ford back then, or 3rd party establishments.

Are there actually many OEMs that do their own powertrain design anymore? Even inhouse stuff is largely done with significant supplier input from people like Ricardo and Mahle...

Yes, I can vouch that Jaguar Landrover do. The only time they used outsourcing recently is because they had more engine programmes than they had people to do them, so some parts of some programmes were sent out, most stayed in house.

I thought LR used engines based in a PSA Group engine? Or was that long since replaced?

[DonkeyApple]

Robmarriott said:

As an aside, over the years, how many engines did Aston Martin ever actually make themselves? 2? possibly 3 if you count the DB7's Jaguar based unit?

Genuine question, I'm intrigued.

An interesting question. The engine from the late 40s onwards came in from the purchase of Lagonda and was a WO Bentley designed engine. Tadek Marek then redesigned it in the 50s.

He designed and oversaw the building of his V8 engine in the mid/late 60s while at AM so I've always thought of that engine as a pure AM born and bred unit.

Then from 99/2000 they've basically been Ford units under license until the recent AMG deal.

I don't know what they used prior to the DB era?

[Pierre-kma6q]

RC1807 said:

Fetchez la vache said:

Is it just me or does an "engine partnership" sound a bit weird when they're "new" road engines are for all intents and purposes, Merc engines... ?

Andy Palmer said at the Singapore GP that AM were researching the future engine regulations to see what they may be able to do, i.e. develop their own F1 engine for RBR. Great branding opportunities for both AM & RBR, more than now.

Ricciardo & Verstappen will also have very nice "company cars", I'm sure.

Is that the same Andy Palmer who said in 2014 that his Nissan LMP1 was going to win Le Mans first time out and be remembered as one of the outstanding race cars in history, or words to that effect?

We know how that went...

[Mr Tidy]

Aston Martin "returns" to Formula 1 - I can't remember them being in F1 before, so how can they return?

[Vantagefan]

arkenphel said:

Do they have enough money for it? Given the state of their finances, and being unable to design an engine that is bespoke to Aston Martin unlike their competitors (Ferrari et al) smacks of Danny Bahar's Lotus Syndrome.

With a predicted operating profit of $170m in 2017 and a massive turnaround thanks to the DB11 they positively have cash to burn

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/24/n...

[can't remember]

Robmarriott said:

As an aside, over the years, how many engines did Aston Martin ever actually make themselves? 2? possibly 3 if you count the DB7's Jaguar based unit?

Genuine question, I'm intrigued.

If you count the Renwick and Lagonda engines as Aston Martin, and the definitely Aston engines by Marek, I would say four. Those four engines though span roughly 70 years (even if Astons weren't actually in production for a few of those years). So about three times longer than Bentley had their own engines. Saying that I'm sure someone who knows more than I do will be able to give you a better answer.

The thing puzzling me is why this is being marketed as a return to F1 when Aston's original attempt at F1 lasted as long, and smelled as good, as a wet fart.

[Europa1]

Mr Tidy said:

Aston Martin "returns" to Formula 1 - I can't remember them being in F1 before, so how can they return?

See post by Coppice on the previous page.

[Wills2]

Vantagefan said:

arkenphel said:

Do they have enough money for it? Given the state of their finances, and being unable to design an engine that is bespoke to Aston Martin unlike their competitors (Ferrari et al) smacks of Danny Bahar's Lotus Syndrome.

With a predicted operating profit of $170m in 2017 and a massive turnaround thanks to the DB11 they positively have cash to burn

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/24/n...

$170m in f1 isn't money to burn just have a look how much Honda have spent to get no where.

[LewisR]

PhantomPH said:

LewisR said:

RacerMike said:

LewisR said:

What powertrain capability has Aston Martin ever had since 2000 ?
It was all done by Jaguar or Ford back then, or 3rd party establishments.

Are there actually many OEMs that do their own powertrain design anymore? Even inhouse stuff is largely done with significant supplier input from people like Ricardo and Mahle...

Yes, I can vouch that Jaguar Landrover do. The only time they used outsourcing recently is because they had more engine programmes than they had people to do them, so some parts of some programmes were sent out, most stayed in house.

I thought LR used engines based in a PSA Group engine? Or was that long since replaced?

That was just the diesels....
The V8 petrol was all Jaguar designed and developed. The current V6 petrol the same; it's based on the V8. The new straight-6 diesel & petrol are entirely JLR and the current 2.0 diesels are entirely JLR too; the Ford/PSA diesels were phased out the other year.
If I'm correct, just the V6 & V8 diesels are the non-JLR designed engine currently used.

Not a massive amount of info on the Landrover or Jaguar sites in engines. Better off using Wikipedia I think !