RE: Geely completes Lotus takeover
Discussion
saaby93 said:
GranCab said:
Just because J deL's Attorney got him off the hook doesn't mean he was innocent ....
I guess you have your own system of justice, which is obviously much much better than anyone else'sAny other judgements you'd like to take in your own hands
Now where's that enormous scales and a duck gone
GranCab said:
saaby93 said:
GranCab said:
Just because J deL's Attorney got him off the hook doesn't mean he was innocent ....
I guess you have your own system of justice, which is obviously much much better than anyone else'sAny other judgements you'd like to take in your own hands
Now where's that enormous scales and a duck gone
However it's not as deluded as your putting 2 and 2 together to make 5 and thinking that just because someone has been charged and exonerated they must be guilty after all. None of us could walk around presumed innocent on that basis. Someone somewhere would think we were guilty of something.
Let it rest and give everyone some scope
There's a distinct note of "Why couldn't Lotus remain in British hands?" in this thread -- and I could not agree more. The whole world would love for Lotus to retain all those special somethings that come from being a dyed-in-the-wool British company.
However...
More than money, Lotus needs a network. And this is something that the Chinese buyer can provide in great measure. Networks of suppliers, pools of back-office talent, long lists of facilities, factories, laboratories, tracks... you name it. These are essentially priceless.
Moreover, whatever Branson et al. would have been prepared to invest, the Chinese will invest multiples of that. We have not witnessed the selling of Lotus as much as the setup of Lotus for the next 100 years. Only the deep pockets in China can afford this.
It's also important to mention that, as we all know, Lotus is more than sports cars being retailed to the public. There's professional racing work, there's OEM consultancy, and there's all manner of third-party engineering projects, both automotive and non-automotive.
This brain trust, if you will, cannot be duplicated at any price. And it is also quintessentially British. It cannot be simply ripped out of the UK and transplanted in some smog-filled cityscape in the Far East. The Chinese know this and they will work to ensure that the brain trust and its corporate management remain in situ (much as has been done with Volvo).
I do believe, however, that it's entirely possible and desirable (for reasons of scale, quality and cost) to manufacture the highest-volume Lotus cars in China. Let the handful of highest-spec Lotus cars be made in Blighty. But, otherwise, get global now.
unsprung said:
There's a distinct note of "Why couldn't Lotus remain in British hands?" in this thread -- and I could not agree more. The whole world would love for Lotus to retain all those special somethings that come from being a dyed-in-the-wool British company.
However...
More than money, Lotus needs a network. And this is something that the Chinese buyer can provide in great measure. Networks of suppliers, pools of back-office talent, long lists of facilities, factories, laboratories, tracks... you name it. These are essentially priceless.
Moreover, whatever Branson et al. would have been prepared to invest, the Chinese will invest multiples of that. We have not witnessed the selling of Lotus as much as the setup of Lotus for the next 100 years. Only the deep pockets in China can afford this.
It's also important to mention that, as we all know, Lotus is more than sports cars being retailed to the public. There's professional racing work, there's OEM consultancy, and there's all manner of third-party engineering projects, both automotive and non-automotive.
This brain trust, if you will, cannot be duplicated at any price. And it is also quintessentially British. It cannot be simply ripped out of the UK and transplanted in some smog-filled cityscape in the Far East. The Chinese know this and they will work to ensure that the brain trust and its corporate management remain in situ (much as has been done with Volvo).
I do believe, however, that it's entirely possible and desirable (for reasons of scale, quality and cost) to manufacture the highest-volume Lotus cars in China. Let the handful of highest-spec Lotus cars be made in Blighty. But, otherwise, get global now.
good post.However...
More than money, Lotus needs a network. And this is something that the Chinese buyer can provide in great measure. Networks of suppliers, pools of back-office talent, long lists of facilities, factories, laboratories, tracks... you name it. These are essentially priceless.
Moreover, whatever Branson et al. would have been prepared to invest, the Chinese will invest multiples of that. We have not witnessed the selling of Lotus as much as the setup of Lotus for the next 100 years. Only the deep pockets in China can afford this.
It's also important to mention that, as we all know, Lotus is more than sports cars being retailed to the public. There's professional racing work, there's OEM consultancy, and there's all manner of third-party engineering projects, both automotive and non-automotive.
This brain trust, if you will, cannot be duplicated at any price. And it is also quintessentially British. It cannot be simply ripped out of the UK and transplanted in some smog-filled cityscape in the Far East. The Chinese know this and they will work to ensure that the brain trust and its corporate management remain in situ (much as has been done with Volvo).
I do believe, however, that it's entirely possible and desirable (for reasons of scale, quality and cost) to manufacture the highest-volume Lotus cars in China. Let the handful of highest-spec Lotus cars be made in Blighty. But, otherwise, get global now.
Lotus can sell lots in Asia. too many on this forum are insular in their horizons. For the most part we count for very little, and then sometimes we count for a lot, eg Clio Trophy.
SidewaysSi said:
saaby93 said:
Why do so many people think Geely is a good idea?
As someone else said where are the home grown investors?
Why does a company even need an investor - why can't it stand on it's own 4 wheels
Investors only invest because there's some cream to be had, which could have gone back into the business
I think there are very few, if any British owned car companies. I don't see the problem if they run it well?As someone else said where are the home grown investors?
Why does a company even need an investor - why can't it stand on it's own 4 wheels
Investors only invest because there's some cream to be had, which could have gone back into the business
Yipper said:
CDP said:
Yipper said:
Britain just doesn't have the management skills or financial hunger to run big or complex companies anymore. It's best left, nowadays, to the Chinese, Germans and Americans, who have the scale and skills.
I disagree. But most of our managed talent seems up in the city and wouldn't dream of getting involved with factories. GT3-RS said:
SidewaysSi said:
I think there are very few, if any British owned car companies. I don't see the problem if they run it well?
the "problem" is to much short sightedness.....we won't be happy till we actually do nothing or own anything we'll have no skills no craftsmen...nothing nada.....everything will be imported and we'll be cap in hand to every other country what happens when these companies decided to move the manufacturing base to Malaysia or wherever Ford shifted production of the Transit to Poland goodbye 700 jobs Rolls Royce that great British institution all we do is assemble components for "der fatherland" Engines are made in from Germany....good for German workers not so good for us then they're sold under some magical mystery blanket that they're British like they used to be.....????........this is a debate that could rage for ever and a day......ZZZzzzzz- In 2016 more cars were built in Britain than since the turn of the millennium. It is projected that by 2020 UK production will surpass its 1970s peak (although Brexit could yet torpedo that).
- More than 78.9% of all vehicles made in Britain are exported.
- As of Aug 2017 engine production is up 11.9% year on year, driven by overseas demand. More than 1.7 million new British engines were made so far in 2017, 55.8% for export.
Hang on a minute... all this talk of stuff being foreign owned and can be moved to Malaysia at a moments notice etc fails to take into account that even if it was British owned they could move production anywhere they like. It doesnt matter who is banking the cheques at the end of the day because it makes the company no more or less vulnerable to leaving the UK. What matters is that the cars that are built in the UK are top quality and that government policy continues to support that and the money the people who work for the foreign owned manufacturing companies is spent locally in the UK supporting millions of other jobs through the multiplier.
Wake up to the fact that we operate in a global economy and would do so even if Morgan decided to buy Lotus. The situation would be no different. Car companies have to build around the world these days to be able to access important markets which is why JLR build in China.
As for the poster who said they can’t understand why Lotus can’t stand on its own four wheels you only have to look at the facts. It’s has a three model range two models which are fairly antiquated in car terms, it is a fairly niche manufacture with a certain following and it’s needs tonnes of investment to develop the next generation. No company in that situation can survive on its own and having access to the resources or a company like Geely will do it the world of good. We can see what they have done with Volvo and we can see what Tata has done with JLR. Now it’s lotus turn to get the money it deserves.
Wake up to the fact that we operate in a global economy and would do so even if Morgan decided to buy Lotus. The situation would be no different. Car companies have to build around the world these days to be able to access important markets which is why JLR build in China.
As for the poster who said they can’t understand why Lotus can’t stand on its own four wheels you only have to look at the facts. It’s has a three model range two models which are fairly antiquated in car terms, it is a fairly niche manufacture with a certain following and it’s needs tonnes of investment to develop the next generation. No company in that situation can survive on its own and having access to the resources or a company like Geely will do it the world of good. We can see what they have done with Volvo and we can see what Tata has done with JLR. Now it’s lotus turn to get the money it deserves.
CABC said:
craigjm said:
we operate in a global economy and would do so even if Morgan decided to buy Lotus.
. that would be a disaster. Morgan quality is abysmal, innovation somewhat superficial and after sales non-existent (expert dealers left to mop up the mess).
saaby93 said:
Even if that was the case how come theyre managing without a shed load of Chinese money?
Because they are tiny, their R&D requirement is tiny and they are so niche that it’s like comparing a start up to a major manufacturer. They made a big thing a couple of years ago in gaining £2m of backing from HSBC. That wouldn’t even keep Lotus in business for a month craigjm said:
saaby93 said:
Even if that was the case how come theyre managing without a shed load of Chinese money?
Because they are tiny, their R&D requirement is tiny and they are so niche that it’s like comparing a start up to a major manufacturer. They made a big thing a couple of years ago in gaining £2m of backing from HSBC. That wouldn’t even keep Lotus in business for a month But let's be honest, the products are high cost (50k for a Plus4), R&D is negligible, tooling was done years ago. It serves a market, i wish them well, and i have one.
craigjm said:
Hang on a minute... all this talk of stuff being foreign owned and can be moved to Malaysia at a moments notice etc fails to take into account that even if it was British owned they could move production anywhere they like. It doesnt matter who is banking the cheques at the end of the day because it makes the company no more or less vulnerable to leaving the UK. What matters is that the cars that are built in the UK are top quality and that government policy continues to support that and the money the people who work for the foreign owned manufacturing companies is spent locally in the UK supporting millions of other jobs through the multiplier.
Wake up to the fact that we operate in a global economy and would do so even if Morgan decided to buy Lotus. The situation would be no different. Car companies have to build around the world these days to be able to access important markets which is why JLR build in China.
As for the poster who said they can’t understand why Lotus can’t stand on its own four wheels you only have to look at the facts. It’s has a three model range two models which are fairly antiquated in car terms, it is a fairly niche manufacture with a certain following and it’s needs tonnes of investment to develop the next generation. No company in that situation can survive on its own and having access to the resources or a company like Geely will do it the world of good. We can see what they have done with Volvo and we can see what Tata has done with JLR. Now it’s lotus turn to get the money it deserves.
Exactly, they went out and bought a small, niche sports car company that will add value to their portfolio. They aren't going to turn it around and start pumping out SUVs, they've other brands for that.Wake up to the fact that we operate in a global economy and would do so even if Morgan decided to buy Lotus. The situation would be no different. Car companies have to build around the world these days to be able to access important markets which is why JLR build in China.
As for the poster who said they can’t understand why Lotus can’t stand on its own four wheels you only have to look at the facts. It’s has a three model range two models which are fairly antiquated in car terms, it is a fairly niche manufacture with a certain following and it’s needs tonnes of investment to develop the next generation. No company in that situation can survive on its own and having access to the resources or a company like Geely will do it the world of good. We can see what they have done with Volvo and we can see what Tata has done with JLR. Now it’s lotus turn to get the money it deserves.
unsprung said:
CABC said:
good post.
cheers@Doubters:
The Chinese didn't buy Lotus because they thought the badge is great. Outside a handful of enthusiasts, nobody knows these guys anymore, sad as that might be. Imagine you ask all Porsche customers globally if they had considered a Lotus as an alternative. How many do you think would even know the brand? I'd be surprised if it is more than 20%. Just a guesstimate obviously, but seeing that sportscars only make up ~ a third of Porsche's sales nowadays I don't think it is far off.
IMO you guys should be flattered. They bought them for the know-how, history and potential. None of which is easily exported out of the UK. And why should they even consider that? Keep the R&D and the manufacturing for high end stuff in Norfolk. But the main stream stuff, such as the next Elise would be designed. developed and tested in the UK and sourced / manufactured as much as possible in China. This might allow them to really increase their volume.
I really love the marque so I've been following Lotus threads on here for years. Usually, someway along the line there is a form of request for an Elise or Elan type car that is max 20% more expensive than an MX5. Guilty of that myself in earlier times, as price/performance wise, that is probably where it needs to sit for mass appeal. But at the current production cost, this is way past impossible. So it remains a niche product in already niche sports car market.
If there's a chance at all for an 'affordable' Lotus, it is with a big chunk of money and equal measures of patience and ingenuity. The current partnership seems to have a lot of potential in that regard.
Cold said:
In a conversation with Mike Kimberley founder Colin Chapman said:
Making higher volumes of less expensive entry-level Lotus cars means that we would be ‘busy fools'.
While I would not dare to contradict the man himself on anything design or engineering related, ACBC's track record of running a sports car manufacturer in a profitable way isn't great. unsprung said:
More than money, Lotus needs a network. And this is something that the Chinese buyer can provide in great measure. Networks of suppliers, pools of back-office talent, long lists of facilities, factories, laboratories, tracks... you name it. These are essentially priceless.
I agree but I'd say that even more importantly it needs access to modern car systems and it could get these from Volvo. I'm talking about the 'essential' in car tech but this could also mean engines and all sorts of other tech that has been developed and proven by them but will never be seen by Lotus buyers.unsprung said:
It's also important to mention that, as we all know, Lotus is more than sports cars being retailed to the public. There's professional racing work, there's OEM consultancy, and there's all manner of third-party engineering projects, both automotive and non-automotive.
OEM engineering projects have all gone. IIRC all the engineering consultancy part of Lotus was dissolved as it had been many years since it had been the jewel in the crown it once was. Most modern manufacturers did their own work.I'm not sure what the professional racing network you're talking about is though?
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