Automatic Gearbox Woes
Discussion
Hi all,
Happy Weekend! I'm looking for a bit of advice regarding my auto gearbox as things went pear shaped.
I had an auto box (4l80e) rebuilt by a company that were recommended by a random bloke I met. They seemed established with a good reputation and on the day I dropped off the box, business was booming and all manner of cars were there. It was reassuring. I asked about experience with these particular boxes and was assured it wouldn't be an issue.
They're mostly in American trucks and the odd Bentley and Jaguar so not that uncommon in the U.K. Still, they said no problem.
Service was good with a 2 week turnaround with an all inclusive cost of just over £1.6k. I winced but hoped I'd never be rebuilding it.
I put it in my car and drove it for a month doing around 1000 miles; 16mpg, it was painful! But the car was alive and I was happy. Due to a move abroad, I drove to Holland to see a friend and leave my car with him. When I got there, the gearbox was playing up so the following happened.
On 25th Sep, I lost first gear and, concerned, called the gearbox company. They acknowledged my request and said they would call but nobody did that day. I was in North East Holland at this point, stranded were I not visiting a friend.
On 26th Sep, I called again and again was told that someone would call. Again, nobody did. We checked the basics like fluid level and transmission controller and alle war in ordnung. The fluid smelled very bad and was discoloured.
On 27th, smelling the fluid and seeing the colour, I knew a gearbox rebuild was likely so pulled the pan and found it filled with clutch debris. At this point the rebuild was inevitable and still with no contact from the company, I removed the gearbox. It's about 2 hrs of work and the £50 of new transmission fluid was now waste oil.
My friend has a contact who builds American cars and has a lot of experience with gearboxes so with no contact from the company, he offered to inspect the box. He tore it down in front of me initially and I saw the destroyed 3rd gear clutch packs and other evidence of damage.
What he found was very disconcerting. Essentially, major components were inserted back to front, bearings were upside down and a snap ring was installed in the wrong place. The net result of this was that the main shaft and drum in the gearbox was wobbling, hitting parts of the box it should never contact and the clutches were starved of oil and misaligned.
He has sent me subsequent pictures showing destroyed bearing races, scored major parts and explained to me what has happened. Essentially, the rebuild was done by someone not up to the job. I myself have torn down the box in the past and the mistakes made are basic ones - the sun gear shaft is easy to reverse and incorrect installation leads to the failure mentioned.
I'm gutted as this was the only thing keeping my truck from being drivable.
I contacted the company again and this time got their attention. They explained that they had staffing issues. The MD got in touch soon after and was entirely apologetic. He listened to my explanation and to his credit, apologised and immediately offered to correct the faults and put things right. I said to him that I was pleasantly surprised by his attitude and that it was refreshing. My last brush with the motor trade was very acrimonious so he has been upstanding.
The issue is that the gearbox is in Holland and is disassembled. He needs it reassembled and then put on a pallet for collection back to the UK and fault finding and fixing. The convertor needs to be cut open and flushed as well and then once that is all done, it needs to go back to Holland and be put in my car. I am not able to do any of this as am overseas for the foreseeable future.
The alternative is that the gearbox is already in the hands of someone who fills me with a lot more confidence than the first company. The guy builds boxes for dragsters and his knowledge is impressive. The mistakes he found were blindingly obvious which calls in to question the competence of the initial builder.
I know the company want to stand by their work and correct it but I am really reluctant to go through all the hassle of shipping. The risk remains that they do something similar and as the vehicle is in Holland, any faults will have that added factor of complication before they can be rectified. Shipping both ways is £100 each plus there is labour for the removal, inspection and reassembly, resinstallation and fluid.
I paid on a Credit Card so am protected by Section 75 of the Credit Card Act but so far, the MD has been cooperative. As I said, I was impressed. I suspect that will change when I explain I am reluctant to further entrust them with the work. I have been in touch with my Credit Card company who have an open investigation should things descend into acrimony. He has sent an email saying they will make things right and cover shipping so they have behaved in a reputable fashion which is a huge relief. That said, I don't really feel they are able to do the work to a competent standard. The contrast with the guy that builds race car boxes is huge and it's already in his shop.
I posted here as I wanted to know what I can reasonably expect and how to go about this. I'm keen to secure a complete refund and call it a day. Can I do this or will the chap justifiably and legally refuse and say he wants to fix the issues? Can I then respond and say I don't trust him?
I'm bitterly disappointed with this result and really don't want to gamble with them anymore.
What do you think? Thanks for any input!
Happy Weekend! I'm looking for a bit of advice regarding my auto gearbox as things went pear shaped.
I had an auto box (4l80e) rebuilt by a company that were recommended by a random bloke I met. They seemed established with a good reputation and on the day I dropped off the box, business was booming and all manner of cars were there. It was reassuring. I asked about experience with these particular boxes and was assured it wouldn't be an issue.
They're mostly in American trucks and the odd Bentley and Jaguar so not that uncommon in the U.K. Still, they said no problem.
Service was good with a 2 week turnaround with an all inclusive cost of just over £1.6k. I winced but hoped I'd never be rebuilding it.
I put it in my car and drove it for a month doing around 1000 miles; 16mpg, it was painful! But the car was alive and I was happy. Due to a move abroad, I drove to Holland to see a friend and leave my car with him. When I got there, the gearbox was playing up so the following happened.
On 25th Sep, I lost first gear and, concerned, called the gearbox company. They acknowledged my request and said they would call but nobody did that day. I was in North East Holland at this point, stranded were I not visiting a friend.
On 26th Sep, I called again and again was told that someone would call. Again, nobody did. We checked the basics like fluid level and transmission controller and alle war in ordnung. The fluid smelled very bad and was discoloured.
On 27th, smelling the fluid and seeing the colour, I knew a gearbox rebuild was likely so pulled the pan and found it filled with clutch debris. At this point the rebuild was inevitable and still with no contact from the company, I removed the gearbox. It's about 2 hrs of work and the £50 of new transmission fluid was now waste oil.
My friend has a contact who builds American cars and has a lot of experience with gearboxes so with no contact from the company, he offered to inspect the box. He tore it down in front of me initially and I saw the destroyed 3rd gear clutch packs and other evidence of damage.
What he found was very disconcerting. Essentially, major components were inserted back to front, bearings were upside down and a snap ring was installed in the wrong place. The net result of this was that the main shaft and drum in the gearbox was wobbling, hitting parts of the box it should never contact and the clutches were starved of oil and misaligned.
He has sent me subsequent pictures showing destroyed bearing races, scored major parts and explained to me what has happened. Essentially, the rebuild was done by someone not up to the job. I myself have torn down the box in the past and the mistakes made are basic ones - the sun gear shaft is easy to reverse and incorrect installation leads to the failure mentioned.
I'm gutted as this was the only thing keeping my truck from being drivable.
I contacted the company again and this time got their attention. They explained that they had staffing issues. The MD got in touch soon after and was entirely apologetic. He listened to my explanation and to his credit, apologised and immediately offered to correct the faults and put things right. I said to him that I was pleasantly surprised by his attitude and that it was refreshing. My last brush with the motor trade was very acrimonious so he has been upstanding.
The issue is that the gearbox is in Holland and is disassembled. He needs it reassembled and then put on a pallet for collection back to the UK and fault finding and fixing. The convertor needs to be cut open and flushed as well and then once that is all done, it needs to go back to Holland and be put in my car. I am not able to do any of this as am overseas for the foreseeable future.
The alternative is that the gearbox is already in the hands of someone who fills me with a lot more confidence than the first company. The guy builds boxes for dragsters and his knowledge is impressive. The mistakes he found were blindingly obvious which calls in to question the competence of the initial builder.
I know the company want to stand by their work and correct it but I am really reluctant to go through all the hassle of shipping. The risk remains that they do something similar and as the vehicle is in Holland, any faults will have that added factor of complication before they can be rectified. Shipping both ways is £100 each plus there is labour for the removal, inspection and reassembly, resinstallation and fluid.
I paid on a Credit Card so am protected by Section 75 of the Credit Card Act but so far, the MD has been cooperative. As I said, I was impressed. I suspect that will change when I explain I am reluctant to further entrust them with the work. I have been in touch with my Credit Card company who have an open investigation should things descend into acrimony. He has sent an email saying they will make things right and cover shipping so they have behaved in a reputable fashion which is a huge relief. That said, I don't really feel they are able to do the work to a competent standard. The contrast with the guy that builds race car boxes is huge and it's already in his shop.
I posted here as I wanted to know what I can reasonably expect and how to go about this. I'm keen to secure a complete refund and call it a day. Can I do this or will the chap justifiably and legally refuse and say he wants to fix the issues? Can I then respond and say I don't trust him?
I'm bitterly disappointed with this result and really don't want to gamble with them anymore.
What do you think? Thanks for any input!
Edited by GMCTyphoon on Monday 2nd October 02:23
clutch material in fluid
burnt clutches
sun gear shaft upside down - see the inner surface is splined? The chamfered end goes face down. It wasn't.
snap ring installed here...
where it should have been
bearing race upside down...
destroyed bearingThere's further damage that I haven't got photos of yet. Pretty gutted.
Get it repaired by the people in holland and get it fitted and tested. Shipping it around isn't going to work and I wouldn't trust the builder.
That snap ring is probably what burnt the clutches up as there wasn't enough clamping on them. You need to get a little more aware of clutch slip - because if you ignore it, it's a full rebuild to clean all the crap out. Dont forget to flush you cooler and lines.
I had issues with 700r4 box that a 'specialist' rebuilt. Had to be returned twice for faults at my cost. The first time was a part in back to front, the 2nd time it was slipping in 4th - which he couldn't figure out. After a month or longer, I said forget it and retrieved the car and fixed it myself, Turns out it was an incorrect sized washer on the 2/4 servo.
Was your builder in the midlands?
That snap ring is probably what burnt the clutches up as there wasn't enough clamping on them. You need to get a little more aware of clutch slip - because if you ignore it, it's a full rebuild to clean all the crap out. Dont forget to flush you cooler and lines.
I had issues with 700r4 box that a 'specialist' rebuilt. Had to be returned twice for faults at my cost. The first time was a part in back to front, the 2nd time it was slipping in 4th - which he couldn't figure out. After a month or longer, I said forget it and retrieved the car and fixed it myself, Turns out it was an incorrect sized washer on the 2/4 servo.
Was your builder in the midlands?
get a full refund get other bloke to repair. if no dice just start a moneyclaim as you haven't a lot to lose and doesn't cost a lot. I wouldn't be giving the gearbox back to them.
edit you paid via CC i would speak with them as you are protected by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Section 75 of the Act makes the card provider as responsible as the trader for a breach of contract, goods not of satisfactory quality.
edit you paid via CC i would speak with them as you are protected by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Section 75 of the Act makes the card provider as responsible as the trader for a breach of contract, goods not of satisfactory quality.
Edited by The Spruce goose on Saturday 30th September 23:14
If your conversation with the MD of the original company has been on good terms - my inclination would be to suggest to him that he refunds you the TOTAL cost of the original bill. You then bite the bullet and get the box repaired elsewhere. By doing this you HAVE then saved any further expense in shipping the box around Europe, removed the chance of getting a box back that gives you further aggro, and the consequence arguing with the MD if it still isn't put right to your satisfaction.
Also, send him all the pictures of the damage - and also keep in mind, and mention to him, that you COULD be saving him a LOT more expense in salvaging any components from this obviously seriously damaged box.
Also, send him all the pictures of the damage - and also keep in mind, and mention to him, that you COULD be saving him a LOT more expense in salvaging any components from this obviously seriously damaged box.
Thanks gentlemen.
Eliot, not sure if you remember but I spoke to you (via email) a few years ago and was asking after your 4l80e at the time. How are you?
I have writtent the following email and agree that I'd rather have a full refund and just be done with them. The company is based on the South coast. I believe forum rules prohibit me from publicly naming them but in their defence, they were willing to try and rectify it. I'm just more convinced the Holland chap knows his onions.
[i]Hi XXXXX,
Thanks very much for your prompt email. I really appreciated the time taken to call me and also the offer to collect the gearbox and then repair it back in the UK. It was very reassuring and speaks volumes.
As the gearbox is in Holland and is already disassembled, it will take some time to reassemble it and put it on a pallet. The chap that it is with at the moment will obviously incur a cost in his time to do this, beyond that of the initial tear down and inspection. As mentioned, he has a great deal of experience in these transmissions and appears to know them inside and out.
It will then need to be taken apart at your end and again re-assembled which seems like an unnecessary duplication of work. I am also worried that any subsequent installation or logistical problems with the gearbox will end up being difficult. With the vehicle in Holland and me now being in Australia and yourselves based in Portsmouth along with time differences etc. I'm not sure it's the best way forward.
To recap, the issues that were discovered were:
- sun shaft gear inserted upside down
- needle bearings inserted upside down
- anti-fretting snap-ring installed too deep in the case in the wrong grooves/location
- spring retainer plate from intermediate 2nd piston bent/dented
I have attached the photographs that I took and that were sent to me following the initial disassembly of the gearbox.
The results of the build caused instability in the internal assembly resulting in wobble. The sun gear shaft was unable to support the direct drum which has flopped around, lost pressure and burnt the clutches.
The transmission has a number of frictions and steels welded together meaning the direct drum was always applied. The intermediate band applied but was unable to hold the drum and burnt both the band and drum. The direct drum is unserviceable so will need replaced. In addition, as you said, the convertor will need to be cut open and flushed along with the transmission lines and the oil cooler in my vehicle. This will also mean I need to buy another 15L of transmission fluid.
Having spoken with a few people including the specialist in the Netherlands, the installation of the sun gear shaft and the snap ring in the wrong place are very concerning as they are fundamental to the operation of the gearbox which has a reputation as a very reliable and sturdy unit.
I've had time to consider what I would like to do and I think given the logistical issues and my concerns over assembly, I feel the best way forward is that I kindly request a full refund for the charges I paid previously and that the box is assembled in the Netherlands and repaired by the specialist there. If you would like to liaise directly with the company to discuss what he has found, the number is +31681444646.
I want to thank you for your offer to correct the issues but I feel that the Netherands company that works on these boxes more frequently is in a better position to work on it. I realise that you would like to have had the opportunity to remedy the situation and I am grateful for the offer but I hope you can appreciate my perspective and agree this way forward. I look forward to your early response. [/i]
I'll keep you posted.
Thanks all!
Eliot, not sure if you remember but I spoke to you (via email) a few years ago and was asking after your 4l80e at the time. How are you?
I have writtent the following email and agree that I'd rather have a full refund and just be done with them. The company is based on the South coast. I believe forum rules prohibit me from publicly naming them but in their defence, they were willing to try and rectify it. I'm just more convinced the Holland chap knows his onions.
[i]Hi XXXXX,
Thanks very much for your prompt email. I really appreciated the time taken to call me and also the offer to collect the gearbox and then repair it back in the UK. It was very reassuring and speaks volumes.
As the gearbox is in Holland and is already disassembled, it will take some time to reassemble it and put it on a pallet. The chap that it is with at the moment will obviously incur a cost in his time to do this, beyond that of the initial tear down and inspection. As mentioned, he has a great deal of experience in these transmissions and appears to know them inside and out.
It will then need to be taken apart at your end and again re-assembled which seems like an unnecessary duplication of work. I am also worried that any subsequent installation or logistical problems with the gearbox will end up being difficult. With the vehicle in Holland and me now being in Australia and yourselves based in Portsmouth along with time differences etc. I'm not sure it's the best way forward.
To recap, the issues that were discovered were:
- sun shaft gear inserted upside down
- needle bearings inserted upside down
- anti-fretting snap-ring installed too deep in the case in the wrong grooves/location
- spring retainer plate from intermediate 2nd piston bent/dented
I have attached the photographs that I took and that were sent to me following the initial disassembly of the gearbox.
The results of the build caused instability in the internal assembly resulting in wobble. The sun gear shaft was unable to support the direct drum which has flopped around, lost pressure and burnt the clutches.
The transmission has a number of frictions and steels welded together meaning the direct drum was always applied. The intermediate band applied but was unable to hold the drum and burnt both the band and drum. The direct drum is unserviceable so will need replaced. In addition, as you said, the convertor will need to be cut open and flushed along with the transmission lines and the oil cooler in my vehicle. This will also mean I need to buy another 15L of transmission fluid.
Having spoken with a few people including the specialist in the Netherlands, the installation of the sun gear shaft and the snap ring in the wrong place are very concerning as they are fundamental to the operation of the gearbox which has a reputation as a very reliable and sturdy unit.
I've had time to consider what I would like to do and I think given the logistical issues and my concerns over assembly, I feel the best way forward is that I kindly request a full refund for the charges I paid previously and that the box is assembled in the Netherlands and repaired by the specialist there. If you would like to liaise directly with the company to discuss what he has found, the number is +31681444646.
I want to thank you for your offer to correct the issues but I feel that the Netherands company that works on these boxes more frequently is in a better position to work on it. I realise that you would like to have had the opportunity to remedy the situation and I am grateful for the offer but I hope you can appreciate my perspective and agree this way forward. I look forward to your early response. [/i]
I'll keep you posted.
Thanks all!
It's been a while and the matter has been concluded to my ultimate satisfaction so I thought I would share here - I hate inconclusive threads!
The MD forwarded my email onto his Dad who did the build. He came out of retirement to do it especially apparently. In his email he claimed to be the leading builder in the UK which was a fairly bold claim. Had that been the case, the gearbox wouldn't have failed.
He also said in his email that there was no way to assemble the components upside down as I had alleged. He actually went so far as to accuse the independent specialist I had look at it of being dishonest and inflating prices and exaggerating damage in order to get a more lucrative contract from me.
Two things didn't wash here - first of all, limited in experience I may be, but I read a lot and I read the manual which explicitly warns against incorrect installation. It describes how the piece in question can easily be inserted the wrong way and lead to the exact failure that I experienced. This was the smoking gun that told me he hadn't got any experience building this particular box at all. I highlighted that part of the manual and sent it on and didn't hear back from him.
As far as inflating the claims went, the parts that were damaged were cheap torrington bearings and a shaft and a few other bits and pieces; mere pennies/dollars here and there, certainly nothing that was going to add to my bill. I also saw the guy dismantle it and was under no illusion as to the damage done by incorrect assembly. Some "expert" right?
So, after the shop failed to respond to my last emails, I did some research and it turns out that I was covered by the Credit Card Act of 1975 whereby the credit company is also responsible. I am uneasy with this as they had absolutely no part in this as far as I am concerned. However, the law is the law and I approached them and they were, frankly, amazing.
I sent through everything - emails back and forth, independent assessment, photos all labelled up, the instruction manual. Anything that supported my case.
I got an email on Friday morning confirming that they had found in my favour and that they would settle with me for the price I paid plus interest. (£1637 all in). This doesn't cover the cost of the torque converter flush or the fluid or the new filter I need but I'm a damn sight better off than I thought I was going to be. I also didn't want to puch my luck but perhaps they would have settled for that too. That's probbaly a good £300 but c'est la vie.
So, I am waiting for that to clear into my account. The moral of this story is always buy goods with a credit card as it gives you an alterntive if a supplier is in breach of contract. The credit company is Capital One and the young lady that was working there was very efficient. I'm really surprised as normally I'd expect this thing to be wriggled out of. The key was the independent report and the photos.
So. A happy ending. I expect to have the gearbox built in the next month or so by someone who knows their onions and will look forward to applying 600 ftlbs of torque to the 4 tryes in the near future.
Merry Christmas to me.
The MD forwarded my email onto his Dad who did the build. He came out of retirement to do it especially apparently. In his email he claimed to be the leading builder in the UK which was a fairly bold claim. Had that been the case, the gearbox wouldn't have failed.
He also said in his email that there was no way to assemble the components upside down as I had alleged. He actually went so far as to accuse the independent specialist I had look at it of being dishonest and inflating prices and exaggerating damage in order to get a more lucrative contract from me.
Two things didn't wash here - first of all, limited in experience I may be, but I read a lot and I read the manual which explicitly warns against incorrect installation. It describes how the piece in question can easily be inserted the wrong way and lead to the exact failure that I experienced. This was the smoking gun that told me he hadn't got any experience building this particular box at all. I highlighted that part of the manual and sent it on and didn't hear back from him.
As far as inflating the claims went, the parts that were damaged were cheap torrington bearings and a shaft and a few other bits and pieces; mere pennies/dollars here and there, certainly nothing that was going to add to my bill. I also saw the guy dismantle it and was under no illusion as to the damage done by incorrect assembly. Some "expert" right?
So, after the shop failed to respond to my last emails, I did some research and it turns out that I was covered by the Credit Card Act of 1975 whereby the credit company is also responsible. I am uneasy with this as they had absolutely no part in this as far as I am concerned. However, the law is the law and I approached them and they were, frankly, amazing.
I sent through everything - emails back and forth, independent assessment, photos all labelled up, the instruction manual. Anything that supported my case.
I got an email on Friday morning confirming that they had found in my favour and that they would settle with me for the price I paid plus interest. (£1637 all in). This doesn't cover the cost of the torque converter flush or the fluid or the new filter I need but I'm a damn sight better off than I thought I was going to be. I also didn't want to puch my luck but perhaps they would have settled for that too. That's probbaly a good £300 but c'est la vie.
So, I am waiting for that to clear into my account. The moral of this story is always buy goods with a credit card as it gives you an alterntive if a supplier is in breach of contract. The credit company is Capital One and the young lady that was working there was very efficient. I'm really surprised as normally I'd expect this thing to be wriggled out of. The key was the independent report and the photos.
So. A happy ending. I expect to have the gearbox built in the next month or so by someone who knows their onions and will look forward to applying 600 ftlbs of torque to the 4 tryes in the near future.
Merry Christmas to me.
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