RE: Mini 1499 GT announced
Discussion
I think we tend to over think it, people like Minis and I can see the appeal, got an old snotter 52 plate on the path at the moment, it has lasted well, feels a bit sporty and is good fun.
So, the demographic goes in to get a Mini and gets offered a special edition, it looks pretty funky, test drive goes well and it works on the finance, paper gets signed and new owner is happy, then they go back in three years for another.
Most normal people are happy with that level of power, keeps up with traffic, will feel like its making an effort and they arent prepared to pay a lot more for some more power, believe it or not, they perhaps view BHP and Torque figures with the interest we reserve for designer shoes, similar to the way our dog views fruit and vegetables, people have different needs and interests and no real desire to be pinned to the seat struggling to breathe whilst getting up to speed on the road and have to pay the insurance, tax and fuel for that capability.
They dont want slow and frustrating, and, it wont be most of the time for them, occasionally they may consider a bit more might be good, but 99.99 percent of the time you are stuck behind someone else and even in this you arent using full throttle.
I am using our Citroen C1 and it can be frustrating on long uphill stretches but guess what, I have survived thus far.
So, the demographic goes in to get a Mini and gets offered a special edition, it looks pretty funky, test drive goes well and it works on the finance, paper gets signed and new owner is happy, then they go back in three years for another.
Most normal people are happy with that level of power, keeps up with traffic, will feel like its making an effort and they arent prepared to pay a lot more for some more power, believe it or not, they perhaps view BHP and Torque figures with the interest we reserve for designer shoes, similar to the way our dog views fruit and vegetables, people have different needs and interests and no real desire to be pinned to the seat struggling to breathe whilst getting up to speed on the road and have to pay the insurance, tax and fuel for that capability.
They dont want slow and frustrating, and, it wont be most of the time for them, occasionally they may consider a bit more might be good, but 99.99 percent of the time you are stuck behind someone else and even in this you arent using full throttle.
I am using our Citroen C1 and it can be frustrating on long uphill stretches but guess what, I have survived thus far.
J4CKO said:
I think we tend to over think it, people like Minis and I can see the appeal, got an old snotter 52 plate on the path at the moment, it has lasted well, feels a bit sporty and is good fun.
So, the demographic goes in to get a Mini and gets offered a special edition, it looks pretty funky, test drive goes well and it works on the finance, paper gets signed and new owner is happy, then they go back in three years for another.
Most normal people are happy with that level of power, keeps up with traffic, will feel like its making an effort and they arent prepared to pay a lot more for some more power, believe it or not, they perhaps view BHP and Torque figures with the interest we reserve for designer shoes, similar to the way our dog views fruit and vegetables, people have different needs and interests and no real desire to be pinned to the seat struggling to breathe whilst getting up to speed on the road and have to pay the insurance, tax and fuel for that capability.
They dont want slow and frustrating, and, it wont be most of the time for them, occasionally they may consider a bit more might be good, but 99.99 percent of the time you are stuck behind someone else and even in this you arent using full throttle.
I am using our Citroen C1 and it can be frustrating on long uphill stretches but guess what, I have survived thus far.
So If your C1 had a stripe down the side and a different steering wheel and was marketed as the spiritual successor to the 205 Gti, you'd still have bought it?So, the demographic goes in to get a Mini and gets offered a special edition, it looks pretty funky, test drive goes well and it works on the finance, paper gets signed and new owner is happy, then they go back in three years for another.
Most normal people are happy with that level of power, keeps up with traffic, will feel like its making an effort and they arent prepared to pay a lot more for some more power, believe it or not, they perhaps view BHP and Torque figures with the interest we reserve for designer shoes, similar to the way our dog views fruit and vegetables, people have different needs and interests and no real desire to be pinned to the seat struggling to breathe whilst getting up to speed on the road and have to pay the insurance, tax and fuel for that capability.
They dont want slow and frustrating, and, it wont be most of the time for them, occasionally they may consider a bit more might be good, but 99.99 percent of the time you are stuck behind someone else and even in this you arent using full throttle.
I am using our Citroen C1 and it can be frustrating on long uphill stretches but guess what, I have survived thus far.
J4CKO said:
Most normal people are happy with that level of power, keeps up with traffic, will feel like its making an effort and they arent prepared to pay a lot more for some more power, believe it or not, they perhaps view BHP and Torque figures with the interest we reserve for designer shoes, similar to the way our dog views fruit and vegetables, people have different needs and interests and no real desire to be pinned to the seat struggling to breathe whilst getting up to speed on the road and have to pay the insurance, tax and fuel for that capability.
They dont want slow and frustrating, and, it wont be most of the time for them, occasionally they may consider a bit more might be good, but 99.99 percent of the time you are stuck behind someone else and even in this you arent using full throttle.
Exactly. In that respect it's a dead ringer for the original 1275GT, which was created because BL realised that most people who bought Coopers didn't really care about their rally pedigree or how blisteringly fast they were and really wanted a Mini with a bit of poke, a bit of sporty styling flair and a more comfortable interior. Even with de-tuned engine and a single carb the 1275GT wasn't slow by the standard of small cars of the time and it cost much less in fuel and insurance, just like this new one. The only error for the original was ditching the Cooper name which had a lot of cachet, but now MINI itself has that and there are still the Coopers for those that want them. They dont want slow and frustrating, and, it wont be most of the time for them, occasionally they may consider a bit more might be good, but 99.99 percent of the time you are stuck behind someone else and even in this you arent using full throttle.
I'm not convinced that Cooper means anything, any more.
In the old days, it had a straight connection to the rally cars and there was no mistaking the credentials as it won rallies.
I imagine most people now are just as likely to believe it was named after Henry Cooper or Tommy Cooper and don't much care. I recall the originals and have never really taken the Cooper name as anything other than a bit of marketing but without any real cachet.
In the old days, it had a straight connection to the rally cars and there was no mistaking the credentials as it won rallies.
I imagine most people now are just as likely to believe it was named after Henry Cooper or Tommy Cooper and don't much care. I recall the originals and have never really taken the Cooper name as anything other than a bit of marketing but without any real cachet.
LuS1fer said:
I'm not convinced that Cooper means anything, any more.
In the old days, it had a straight connection to the rally cars and there was no mistaking the credentials as it won rallies.
I imagine most people now are just as likely to believe it was named after Henry Cooper or Tommy Cooper and don't much care. I recall the originals and have never really taken the Cooper name as anything other than a bit of marketing but without any real cachet.
I think it’s still well known as John Cooper. Plenty of graphics and special models alluding to the name, JCW. In the old days, it had a straight connection to the rally cars and there was no mistaking the credentials as it won rallies.
I imagine most people now are just as likely to believe it was named after Henry Cooper or Tommy Cooper and don't much care. I recall the originals and have never really taken the Cooper name as anything other than a bit of marketing but without any real cachet.
As for rally ties. The Mini, the original gave up front running rallying decades before. But still kept Cooper as a model.
These days it’s part of the model line in much the same way; One, Cooper and Cooper S.
As you go up the model range you get more power/faster and maybe slightly more base kit and different options packages.
As the whole race/rally homologation rules are completely different these days. I don’t think you can really blame BMW for this.
LuS1fer said:
I'm not convinced that Cooper means anything, any more.
In the old days, it had a straight connection to the rally cars and there was no mistaking the credentials as it won rallies.
I imagine most people now are just as likely to believe it was named after Henry Cooper or Tommy Cooper and don't much care. I recall the originals and have never really taken the Cooper name as anything other than a bit of marketing but without any real cachet.
These days marketing = cachet. The Cooper name (and really the entire Mini marque) became nothing but a marketing exercise from the late 1980s onwards. You couldn't even buy a boggo 998cc Mini past 1992 - it was all luxury special editions and the new Coopers. And they sold because they were Minis, not because they were objectively any good in relation to the hot-hatch competition of the time. Even then a lot of people referred to all Minis as 'Mini Coopers', like Cooper was a model and Mini was the brand. It's the power of the brand and marketing and that's what the Cooper name is really there for now. The fact that they're still really good fun to drive as road cars is almost by the by. In the old days, it had a straight connection to the rally cars and there was no mistaking the credentials as it won rallies.
I imagine most people now are just as likely to believe it was named after Henry Cooper or Tommy Cooper and don't much care. I recall the originals and have never really taken the Cooper name as anything other than a bit of marketing but without any real cachet.
Having driven the 1.2-litre model that this 1499GT is replacing I do like the idea of it, and purely superficially I like its looks because I'm a sucker for sill stripes. But then I also liked the basic MINI First they did a few years back so I think I'm a bit out of step with the motoring public when it comes to MINIs.
tankplanker said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
I suspect they've done loads of research and have concluded that this will sell better. They are in business to make cars to sell for a profit. If their research tells them that a 102bhp version will sell better than a higher priced more powerful version, then that's what they'll make.
More like it won't cut into the sales of the Cooper S/JCW and gives Mini the chance to sell the new version of the One at a higher price without impacting all the left over stock they currently have for the old Mini One.talksthetorque said:
J4CKO said:
I think we tend to over think it, people like Minis and I can see the appeal, got an old snotter 52 plate on the path at the moment, it has lasted well, feels a bit sporty and is good fun.
So, the demographic goes in to get a Mini and gets offered a special edition, it looks pretty funky, test drive goes well and it works on the finance, paper gets signed and new owner is happy, then they go back in three years for another.
Most normal people are happy with that level of power, keeps up with traffic, will feel like its making an effort and they arent prepared to pay a lot more for some more power, believe it or not, they perhaps view BHP and Torque figures with the interest we reserve for designer shoes, similar to the way our dog views fruit and vegetables, people have different needs and interests and no real desire to be pinned to the seat struggling to breathe whilst getting up to speed on the road and have to pay the insurance, tax and fuel for that capability.
They dont want slow and frustrating, and, it wont be most of the time for them, occasionally they may consider a bit more might be good, but 99.99 percent of the time you are stuck behind someone else and even in this you arent using full throttle.
I am using our Citroen C1 and it can be frustrating on long uphill stretches but guess what, I have survived thus far.
So If your C1 had a stripe down the side and a different steering wheel and was marketed as the spiritual successor to the 205 Gti, you'd still have bought it?So, the demographic goes in to get a Mini and gets offered a special edition, it looks pretty funky, test drive goes well and it works on the finance, paper gets signed and new owner is happy, then they go back in three years for another.
Most normal people are happy with that level of power, keeps up with traffic, will feel like its making an effort and they arent prepared to pay a lot more for some more power, believe it or not, they perhaps view BHP and Torque figures with the interest we reserve for designer shoes, similar to the way our dog views fruit and vegetables, people have different needs and interests and no real desire to be pinned to the seat struggling to breathe whilst getting up to speed on the road and have to pay the insurance, tax and fuel for that capability.
They dont want slow and frustrating, and, it wont be most of the time for them, occasionally they may consider a bit more might be good, but 99.99 percent of the time you are stuck behind someone else and even in this you arent using full throttle.
I am using our Citroen C1 and it can be frustrating on long uphill stretches but guess what, I have survived thus far.
Most owners of Minis arent bothered about the historical aspects or a car that stopped being produced before they were born.
Not sure when the 1275 GT ascended to the pantheon of greatness, it was a Mini with weird (Dunlop Denovo) Run Flat tyres so seems strangely appropriate and a slightly different front end for no apparent good reason, the "Clubman" bit has already been used as a name so may as well use what is a number, followed by GT in a similar script.
Not sure why they bother as the old beards will moan it isnt like the old days and the 18 to 30 year old girls that typically buy them wont care anyway.
The 1275 GT was ok by Mini standards of the day, quite a low bar really unless you liked rotten subframes, mouldy interiors and zero crash protection but its never been touted as one of the greats, cant say I have ever seen one mentioned but the minute BMW appropriate its lasting legacy its a travesty, pull the other one, its a largely forgotten slightly less miserable contraption than the average 850 Mini of the day.
300bhp/ton said:
va1o said:
Looks smart but would've been better based on the Cooper with the proper powered version of that engine. 102bhp is inadequate
Is it priced less than a Cooper? If so it would be madness to make it as fast with the same engine. Maybe people just lack common sense??
J4CKO said:
The 1275 GT was ok by Mini standards of the day, quite a low bar really unless you liked rotten subframes, mouldy interiors and zero crash protection but its never been touted as one of the greats, cant say I have ever seen one mentioned but the minute BMW appropriate its lasting legacy its a travesty, pull the other one, its a largely forgotten slightly less miserable contraption than the average 850 Mini of the day.
You forgot over heating engines/failed radiators 
(speaking from personal experience of my 1275GT)
hondansx said:
What imaginary people do you think will buy that car?
Maybe the same people that said they'd buy a GT86.
People looking for a toy for trackdays/sunday blasts that don't fancy dropping 25-30k on one of the challenge cars? just a thought...Maybe the same people that said they'd buy a GT86.
Just saw this mentioned by another poster as well, there really isn't much in the way of stripped down weekend/track cars in this price bracket. I mean you have second hand Caterhams and kit cars but they aren't really 'normal' cars so to speak - the car mentioned would be a lot easier to live with.
Edited by Hammy98 on Friday 13th October 09:45
va1o said:
300bhp/ton said:
va1o said:
Looks smart but would've been better based on the Cooper with the proper powered version of that engine. 102bhp is inadequate
Is it priced less than a Cooper? If so it would be madness to make it as fast with the same engine. Maybe people just lack common sense??
Suspect this is more insurance friendly too. Which will make it appeal for different reasons.
PH rationale,
A new car/model/variant has been released, hurrah !
But it doesn't meet my exact and exacting criteria so it is s
t and must be killed "with fire", even though it isn't aimed at me, its probably for those funny "no-tails" or something, but kill it anyway.
or
A new car/model/variant has been released, hurrah !
Its fully meets my exact and exacting criteria to the tee, cue tumbleweed as nobody buys it.....but buys a manky old Lexus, MX5 or something.
A new car/model/variant has been released, hurrah !
But it doesn't meet my exact and exacting criteria so it is s
t and must be killed "with fire", even though it isn't aimed at me, its probably for those funny "no-tails" or something, but kill it anyway.or
A new car/model/variant has been released, hurrah !
Its fully meets my exact and exacting criteria to the tee, cue tumbleweed as nobody buys it.....but buys a manky old Lexus, MX5 or something.
300bhp/ton said:
Which would seem a sensible cross over. Base model Cooper or this for about the same money. Add any options to the Cooper and it becomes rapidly more expensive.
Suspect this is more insurance friendly too. Which will make it appeal for different reasons.
As I put on the previous page the 1499 GT gets black paint, the JWS bodykit and seats and nothing else. While the latter two aren't available for the Cooper the paint is a whopping £475, but as I mentioned you can get a decent discount on the Cooper, so it'll be the same spec (once you've paid for the black paint and ignoring the body kit/seats), have ~30% more power, and likely save about £2k over the 1499 GT. I can't see the point myself, £2k goes a long way on running costs and insurance.Suspect this is more insurance friendly too. Which will make it appeal for different reasons.
tankplanker said:
300bhp/ton said:
Which would seem a sensible cross over. Base model Cooper or this for about the same money. Add any options to the Cooper and it becomes rapidly more expensive.
Suspect this is more insurance friendly too. Which will make it appeal for different reasons.
As I put on the previous page the 1499 GT gets black paint, the JWS bodykit and seats and nothing else. While the latter two aren't available for the Cooper the paint is a whopping £475, but as I mentioned you can get a decent discount on the Cooper, so it'll be the same spec (once you've paid for the black paint and ignoring the body kit/seats), have ~30% more power, and likely save about £2k over the 1499 GT. I can't see the point myself, £2k goes a long way on running costs and insurance.Suspect this is more insurance friendly too. Which will make it appeal for different reasons.
Not every buyer will get a discount. And there is nothing to say there won’t be discounts on this model too. A dealer can always adjust their margin if they so want.
And some people will care about looks more than go. As for £2k difference. Which is probably unlikely for a given scenario. Unless you are paying cash, is probably not much of a difference. Maybe £500 more deposit and £10/month on finance. If that.
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