RE: Prior Convictions: the disappearing manual M-car

[RobM77]

300bhp/ton said:

Maybe the answer is very simple. Don’t buy a BMW and instead consider cars that do offer a manual.

Such as?!

[300bhp/ton]

RobM77 said:

Such as?!

Plenty out there Rob. I’m not going to name them. As you are evidently fishing. And any make or model I mention you’ll likely shoot down... because it’s not a BMW

Or at least doesn’t offer what you consider your current and past BMW’s do.

I’m not saying there are other BMW like vehicles with manuals. I’m saying there are plenty of manual cars available that you can buy.

[RobM77]

300bhp/ton said:

RobM77 said:

Such as?!

Plenty out there Rob. I’m not going to name them. As you are evidently fishing. And any make or model I mention you’ll likely shoot down... because it’s not a BMW

Or at least doesn’t offer what you consider your current and past BMW’s do.

I’m not saying there are other BMW like vehicles with manuals. I’m saying there are plenty of manual cars available that you can buy.

Not at all, I genuinely wasn't fishing, I was just curious as to what the alternatives were for a BMW buyer in this sector wanting a manual gearbox. I don't see it as at all relevant that you can buy a Fiesta or a Yaris with a manual box, I was obviously referring to other rear drive options with relatively light weight, a low CofG and practicality. BMW are not alone in their regard for the manual gearbox, in fact I'd say that along with Porsche of late, they're one of the few manufacturers resolutely sticking to manuals, and your post seems to infer the exact opposite, which I found confusing.

[300bhp/ton]

RobM77 said:

Not at all, I genuinely wasn't fishing, I was just curious as to what the alternatives were for a BMW buyer in this sector wanting a manual gearbox. I don't see it as at all relevant that you can buy a Fiesta or a Yaris with a manual box, I was obviously referring to other rear drive options with relatively light weight, a low CofG and practicality. BMW are not alone in their regard for the manual gearbox, in fact I'd say that along with Porsche of late, they're one of the few manufacturers resolutely sticking to manuals, and your post seems to infer the exact opposite, which I found confusing.

I suppose the first issue is “BMW buyer”. Is there really such a segment of people? If so. Then no, choice will likely be zero.

For anyone else who is after a car of ‘x’ price, with ‘y’ seating and wants a manual and shall we say a sporty/performance nature. There are still plenty of choices. You might just have to think outside the box a little.

As for the ‘relatively lightweight’ and ‘low COFG’. Are these really accurate ways to describe a BMW??? Not really convinced myself.

Practicality highly depends on its intended use.

[998420]

So, once they are 10 years old, which would you want? A basic functional Manual, or a complex electromechanical contraption that will cost the thick end of 10k to fix when it goes wrong? When, not if, it is new technology.

[Limpet]

Atomic12C said:

.

The manufacturer over-focus on pure 0-60 times and drivers becoming more lazy is not a good combination for the future of manuals.

Agreed, but don't forget CO2 as well. Many autos have lower official CO2 emissions than their manual equivalents. In the case of my M140i, it actually fell (and still does under the new rules) into a lower VED bracket as an auto. That played no part in my decision, but I know a lot of people who place great importance on such things..

[300bhp/ton]

Limpet said:

Agreed, but don't forget CO2 as well. Many autos have lower official CO2 emissions than their manual equivalents. In the case of my M140i, it actually fell (and still does under the new rules) into a lower VED bracket as an auto. That played no part in my decision, but I know a lot of people who place great importance on such things..

You raise a good point. But I wonder, do these people really exist?

Sure they might for family, city or commuter hacks. But if you are buying a relatively expensive performance car. Who actually bases their buying decision on Co2 or even mpg?

[turbobungle]

I hate seeing articles like this. We're just heading closer and closer towards autonomous driving boxes.

As for people not buying manuals, I think this is a bit to do with sales people suggesting re-sale will be lower, a lot to do with emissions - the M4 manual has lower mpg and higher emissions than the DCT supposedly - and also most people, even petrolheads it seems, wanting the latest technology. I think another reason not many have bought a manual M4 is that they never get any column inches on UK websites or magazines, I've not seen one test that wasn't DCT.

As for the technology, BMW are already outing DCT in favour of newer quicker torque-converter autos (new M5) and thats the problem with up to the minute tech, like an iPhone, its only up to date until the next version, whereas a manual 'box is timeless as well as giving you that extra interaction.

On the questions above about auto-blipping and weight. I have a manual M4 Comp. Pack and I believe its is 35-40kg lighter than a DCT version and with the auto-blip, if you have it in Sport+ mode, which you will, obviously, the auto-blip is switched off so do your own heel and toe shifts.

Driven with DSC off too, which I do all the time, it means you have to be concentrating on what you are doing and I love it.

SAVE THE MANUAL!!!

[turbobungle]

300bhp/ton said:

Plenty out there Rob. I’m not going to name them. As you are evidently fishing. And any make or model I mention you’ll likely shoot down... because it’s not a BMW

Or at least doesn’t offer what you consider your current and past BMW’s do.

I’m not saying there are other BMW like vehicles with manuals. I’m saying there are plenty of manual cars available that you can buy.

In fairness, if you wanted a decent sports saloon with a manual 'box and rear wheel drive, there's not much choice other than the M3. I held on for ages for the Alfa Quadrifoglio only to be told about 6 months after it was due in the UK that it was still a few months away from being ready and will no longer going to be available in RHD with a manual 'box. AMG Mercs auto & RS Audis 4wd & auto. Holden V8's are on their way out. Dodge Charger Hellcat?

[oversteerer]

turbobungle said:

300bhp/ton said:

Plenty out there Rob. I’m not going to name them. As you are evidently fishing. And any make or model I mention you’ll likely shoot down... because it’s not a BMW

Or at least doesn’t offer what you consider your current and past BMW’s do.

I’m not saying there are other BMW like vehicles with manuals. I’m saying there are plenty of manual cars available that you can buy.

In fairness, if you wanted a decent sports saloon with a manual 'box and rear wheel drive, there's not much choice other than the M3. I held on for ages for the Alfa Quadrifoglio only to be told about 6 months after it was due in the UK that it was still a few months away from being ready and will no longer going to be available in RHD with a manual 'box. AMG Mercs auto & RS Audis 4wd & auto. Holden V8's are on their way out. Dodge Charger Hellcat?

I don't think there is a 400hp + "affordable" performance car with a manual gearbox, currently sold by any mainstream manufacturer other than Chevy, Ford or FCA.

[TheMuu]

Gus265 said:

But don't M2s have that self blipping function on the throttle when you change down a gear in a manual? On the M4 aswell? That would drive me insane as that is half the fun!

It's the same on my F80 M3 Manual but when in sport+ you need to heel n toe

[Julian Thompson]

turbobungle said:

I hate seeing articles like this. We're just heading closer and closer towards autonomous driving boxes.

As for people not buying manuals, I think this is a bit to do with sales people suggesting re-sale will be lower, a lot to do with emissions - the M4 manual has lower mpg and higher emissions than the DCT supposedly - and also most people, even petrolheads it seems, wanting the latest technology. I think another reason not many have bought a manual M4 is that they never get any column inches on UK websites or magazines, I've not seen one test that wasn't DCT.

As for the technology, BMW are already outing DCT in favour of newer quicker torque-converter autos (new M5) and thats the problem with up to the minute tech, like an iPhone, its only up to date until the next version, whereas a manual 'box is timeless as well as giving you that extra interaction.

On the questions above about auto-blipping and weight. I have a manual M4 Comp. Pack and I believe its is 35-40kg lighter than a DCT version and with the auto-blip, if you have it in Sport+ mode, which you will, obviously, the auto-blip is switched off so do your own heel and toe shifts.

Driven with DSC off too, which I do all the time, it means you have to be concentrating on what you are doing and I love it.

SAVE THE MANUAL!!!

I also have an m4 comp manual and also drive it “everything off” 100% of the time - fantastic car driven like this. Never ever once think “wish I had the DCT”

[JohnT993]

I've never owned a dual clutch type car, all manuals apart from driving my wife's F31 320d 8speed auto with paddles. I have owned 4 BMW's and currently own an M3 e46 manual, also an exige and 993. Creds over.
I think it's really a matter of context, if you live in a place with nice, clear-ish roads, and your hobby is driving, great crack on with the manual. If you don't, it's more marginal. I used to do loads of track days in my exige and loved the (not great) manual as part of the challenge, now I have a kid and no time, I rarely drive for pleasure, and find the idea of a car that flatters me rather than challenges me more appealing. You can do things in a GTR that would bend your mind in an exige. Changing gear mid drift, changing at the wrong time, etc. and ultimately you're a worse driver because of it. I can see the puritans side for sure, I am one. But on the flip side, we're only here once so I can see the feelgood side as well.
That said, I've had a few pints.

[GT119]

I think there is an elephant in the room.
M-cars of the future will either be hybrid or fully electric.
Multi-ratio gearboxes of any kind are ultimately a means to an end, but add cost, complexity, size and weight, usually at a position in the car that is 'prime real estate'.
In my opinion they will be avoided in favour of higher torque electric propulsion motor/s.
How soon that happens to M I'm not sure, my guess would be 10 years maximum before there are no multi-ratio gearboxes in any M-cars.

[havoc]

turbobungle said:

300bhp/ton said:

Plenty out there Rob. I’m not going to name them. As you are evidently fishing. And any make or model I mention you’ll likely shoot down... because it’s not a BMW

Or at least doesn’t offer what you consider your current and past BMW’s do.

I’m not saying there are other BMW like vehicles with manuals. I’m saying there are plenty of manual cars available that you can buy.

In fairness, if you wanted a decent sports saloon with a manual 'box and rear wheel drive, there's not much choice other than the M3. I held on for ages for the Alfa Quadrifoglio only to be told about 6 months after it was due in the UK that it was still a few months away from being ready and will no longer going to be available in RHD with a manual 'box. AMG Mercs auto & RS Audis 4wd & auto. Holden V8's are on their way out. Dodge Charger Hellcat?

With respect, I think the elephant in the room here is actually turbochargers.

Turbos = increased torque vs a n/asp equivalent (which would likely trade revs for torque to acheive power). Torque is the enemy of a light, slick gearbox, as the 'box needs to be made more robust to tolerate the torque, which leads to a slower, less-sweet gearchange. (Compare e.g. LS-series GM motors vs E39 vs e.g. E46 vs e.g. S2000/Caterham...a sliding scale of torque vs sweetness of manual)

So manufacturers (and marekting dept's ) are taking the easy route out by persuading buyers that automated is best. That and (as has been said) emissions compliance.

I really do think that the future of 'fun' driving is in either classics or lightweight Elise-a-like's, and not in modern all-rounders, which are progressively getting heavier and more sanitised...all for our own good, of course...

[culpz]

998420 said:

So, once they are 10 years old, which would you want? A basic functional Manual, or a complex electromechanical contraption that will cost the thick end of 10k to fix when it goes wrong? When, not if, it is new technology.

They're not that complex, really. There are companies out there that specialise in fixing them for a fraction of what you'd pay at a dealer or even a specialist. We're no longer in the world of "sealed for life" autos and most require remedial maintenance to ensure their longevity.

BMW has announced that DCT's are even going to be a thing of the past, being replaced by generic automatics. The 8-speed ZF has worked out to be pretty solid, as far as i know. It's basically just a fast-shifting slush box with a torque-converter. It's not hugely intricate, really.

[RobM77]

ducnick said:

Sadly in the UK now the traffic is so bad that only a fully automatic box makes sense. ....

DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.

I think it's pushing the clutch up and down that causes the problem, rather than stalling. I have a nerve injury in my left leg and any more than five or ten minutes in traffic for me starts to get quite painful. Thankfully there's not much traffic where I live and work so this isn't a problem (so I disagree with the original statement about traffic in the UK!).

[300bhp/ton]

turbobungle said:

In fairness, if you wanted a decent sports saloon with a manual 'box and rear wheel drive, there's not much choice other than the M3. I held on for ages for the Alfa Quadrifoglio only to be told about 6 months after it was due in the UK that it was still a few months away from being ready and will no longer going to be available in RHD with a manual 'box. AMG Mercs auto & RS Audis 4wd & auto. Holden V8's are on their way out. Dodge Charger Hellcat?

I suspect the main limitations are maybe wanting brand new, fully warranty and from a big mainstream car maker.

If you are prepared to look beyond this. There are still plenty of options out there. Just less conventional.

[300bhp/ton]

GT119 said:

I think there is an elephant in the room.
M-cars of the future will either be hybrid or fully electric.
Multi-ratio gearboxes of any kind are ultimately a means to an end, but add cost, complexity, size and weight, usually at a position in the car that is 'prime real estate'.
In my opinion they will be avoided in favour of higher torque electric propulsion motor/s.
How soon that happens to M I'm not sure, my guess would be 10 years maximum before there are no multi-ratio gearboxes in any M-cars.

You can still have a gearbox with an electric motor and it will offers the same benfits.

[turbobungle]

300bhp/ton said:

I suspect the main limitations are maybe wanting brand new, fully warranty and from a big mainstream car maker.

If you are prepared to look beyond this. There are still plenty of options out there. Just less conventional.

New, yes. Warranty, yes. Mainstream, not necessarily.

If we want to start talking about old sports saloons (Sapphire Cosworth, 190e, E28, E34, E39 M5's, E36, E90 M3's, Lotus Carlton, Audi RS4 to name a few), its a completely different subject and most were manual anyway.

I'm still up for hearing about all the options for current sports saloons with a manual 'box other than an M3, though?