RE: PH Footnote: Crossed out
Discussion
Christ on a bike, if you guys really and truly believe that an Ateca and a Tiguan are as fun to drive as something like a 3 Series, and if you honestly can't understand or feel the difference between a non-descript, understeery FWD SUV and a sharper handling RWD estate then I'm guessing that all hope is lost trying to make good cars any more. No wonder manufacturers are concentrating on marketing iPad connectivity and countless beeping driver aids over driving experience these days in the face of such apathy.
Fair play guys, if you're happy to justify spending 95% of your time driving something so bland and uninspiring for your daily drive then hats off to you - I know I couldn't. I'll probably be sat beside you in traffic one day with kids/bike in the back, in an older V6 or V8 estate car costing half the price of a new SUV, looking up at you in your SUV with a broad grin on my face and thinking hell - I wish I could swap this V8 rumble in my ears for a couple of extra centimeters headroom, an expensive and restrictive lease deal, some inert steering, an iPad connection and a few extra mpg
Fair play guys, if you're happy to justify spending 95% of your time driving something so bland and uninspiring for your daily drive then hats off to you - I know I couldn't. I'll probably be sat beside you in traffic one day with kids/bike in the back, in an older V6 or V8 estate car costing half the price of a new SUV, looking up at you in your SUV with a broad grin on my face and thinking hell - I wish I could swap this V8 rumble in my ears for a couple of extra centimeters headroom, an expensive and restrictive lease deal, some inert steering, an iPad connection and a few extra mpg
Andy20vt said:
Christ on a bike, if you guys really and truly believe that an Ateca and a Tiguan are as fun to drive as something like a 3 Series, and if you honestly can't understand or feel the difference between a non-descript, understeery FWD SUV and a sharper handling RWD estate then I'm guessing that all hope is lost trying to make good cars any more. No wonder manufacturers are concentrating on marketing iPad connectivity and countless beeping driver aids over driving experience these days in the face of such apathy.
Fair play guys, if you're happy to justify spending 95% of your time driving something so bland and uninspiring for your daily drive then hats off to you - I know I couldn't. I'll probably be sat beside you in traffic one day with kids/bike in the back, in an older V6 or V8 estate car costing half the price of a new SUV, looking up at you in your SUV with a broad grin on my face and thinking hell - I wish I could swap this V8 rumble in my ears for a couple of extra centimeters headroom, an expensive and restrictive lease deal, some inert steering, an iPad connection and a few extra mpg
I am not convinced you've had a chance to read this thread but to summarise :Fair play guys, if you're happy to justify spending 95% of your time driving something so bland and uninspiring for your daily drive then hats off to you - I know I couldn't. I'll probably be sat beside you in traffic one day with kids/bike in the back, in an older V6 or V8 estate car costing half the price of a new SUV, looking up at you in your SUV with a broad grin on my face and thinking hell - I wish I could swap this V8 rumble in my ears for a couple of extra centimeters headroom, an expensive and restrictive lease deal, some inert steering, an iPad connection and a few extra mpg
- understeer has less to do with which wheels are driven than set up - the Megane is far more neutral than an RWD Estate 3er
- what has this got to do with the finance method ? You can lease a 3er or a Mondeo too (but they're generally quite expensive on a lease). We have no restrictions on the Tiguan lease. It has been far cheaper than depreciation against discounted cash price.
- why the 95 % again ?
- BMW 3er have totally inert steering IME but uncorrupted steering indeed, which I find utterly irrelevant when taking the kids to school or on the M'way
- the difference in practicality and touring appeal is significant in favour of a SUV for the intended use in my experience with no detriment, I tend to track the Megane, not the TIguan and I tend to drive rather sedately with the kids on board. Call me boring.
- it is possible to have more than one car with different sets of compromises
Again, I have no issues with anyone preferring the driving experience of a Mondeo on the public road or a diesel 3er Estate (which I find terminally bland and uninspiring) although I note you have moved on to V6/V8s now, which is fine too, each to their own.
Out of interest, why are you so wound up about what OTHER people prefer ?
Edited by nickfrog on Thursday 26th October 07:41
Andy20vt said:
Christ on a bike, if you guys really and truly believe that an Ateca and a Tiguan are as fun to drive as something like a 3 Series, and if you honestly can't understand or feel the difference between a non-descript, understeery FWD SUV and a sharper handling RWD estate
I think what you're missing is that compared to the difference in fun, feedback etc between driving say a Lotus and the average family saloon/hatchback/SUV, the difference between a 'sharper handling RWD estate' and 'non-descript, understeery FWD SUV' is utterly negligible, especially once you're loaded up with kids and paraphernalia and driving at normal traffic speeds. Yes, you might notice a difference in handling if you're driving like a loon but at that point the back of the car will be filled with vomit and there'll be a nagging in my ear from the missus! So when choosing a family vehicle to buy, assuming you meet a minimum standard, 'fun-ness' is outweighed by other factors...But like others, the 60% or so of the time I'm driving the family I'm in the Skoda, every other opportunity I'll be in the Evora...
I have neither the budget nor the garage/driveway space for the cars i desire.
I love my Ateca. It does what i need it to very well.
I have motorcycles to stir my blood. I don't think PH is ever going to be the place to laud the mainstream, nor should it be. I don't think i understand the point of this article.
I love my Ateca. It does what i need it to very well.
I have motorcycles to stir my blood. I don't think PH is ever going to be the place to laud the mainstream, nor should it be. I don't think i understand the point of this article.
I'm sure an Elise will be a sharper steer than my 540i.
But, my 540i offers a range of near-silent waft, powerful heater & heated seats, exhilarating V8 power (albeit not as much noise as I'd like!), comfy ride, enormous load-carrying capacity, weighty steering with loads of feel, and good enough handling to be a proper hoot on a B-road (this is common to all E39s, but this one has the optional sports suspension, which totally changes the car's behaviour under cornering). I find myself going further just doing the shopping, just to give me an excuse to thrash it. Even the adaptive Steptronic autobox isn't too much of a hindrance compared to a manual (and they did come with a manual too).
In the real world, day in, week out, my 540i puts a smile on my face. I'm driving it harder as I get to know it, getting the most out of the chassis. It means I don't need a compromised impractical sports car to have fun. If you can't justify a sports car, it's a brilliant all-rounder. If you already have the sports car, why would you have an utterly soul-destroyingly dull daily driver, rather than something fun? Plus, the previous owners of my car have kindly swallowed £52,322 in depreciation over 16 years, and there's a massive pile of bills to prove it's been properly maintained, and all the nasty jobs have been done. It is definitely up to the book acceleration figures, it runs cleanly, doesn't smoke even when cold, and isn't poisoning us with toxic particulates.
Sure, all of this means diddly squat to your average driver... but come on, isn't PH supposed to be a forum for CAR ENTHUSIASTS?! A forum set up for/by the TVR community, on which dreary shyteheaps like Atecas and Tiguans are being held up as the paragon of car design?!
Come on. Those utterly woeful machines do absolutely nothing particularly well, other than sell to the aspirational middle classes on a wave of marketing b
ks! As for this utter bilge about not being able to exploit a RWD car's handling on a daily basis - frankly, if you believe that, were I appointed Her Britannic Majesty's Secretary of State for Transport, I would order your driving licenses to be confiscated, because if you can't tell the difference even at 40mph on a roundabout, you've no business being on the road.
To owners of proper 4WD vehicles, especially those towing horseboxes or other work trailers, or using your cars off-road - I'm not complaining about you! The other day I met a couple of guys with a very muddy lifted Hilux with a winch on the front, massive chunky off-road tyres, a stripped and caged interior, and a supercharged 1UZ-FE V8 breathing through straight-pipe exhausts. That was DEEPLY cool.
But, my 540i offers a range of near-silent waft, powerful heater & heated seats, exhilarating V8 power (albeit not as much noise as I'd like!), comfy ride, enormous load-carrying capacity, weighty steering with loads of feel, and good enough handling to be a proper hoot on a B-road (this is common to all E39s, but this one has the optional sports suspension, which totally changes the car's behaviour under cornering). I find myself going further just doing the shopping, just to give me an excuse to thrash it. Even the adaptive Steptronic autobox isn't too much of a hindrance compared to a manual (and they did come with a manual too).
In the real world, day in, week out, my 540i puts a smile on my face. I'm driving it harder as I get to know it, getting the most out of the chassis. It means I don't need a compromised impractical sports car to have fun. If you can't justify a sports car, it's a brilliant all-rounder. If you already have the sports car, why would you have an utterly soul-destroyingly dull daily driver, rather than something fun? Plus, the previous owners of my car have kindly swallowed £52,322 in depreciation over 16 years, and there's a massive pile of bills to prove it's been properly maintained, and all the nasty jobs have been done. It is definitely up to the book acceleration figures, it runs cleanly, doesn't smoke even when cold, and isn't poisoning us with toxic particulates.
Sure, all of this means diddly squat to your average driver... but come on, isn't PH supposed to be a forum for CAR ENTHUSIASTS?! A forum set up for/by the TVR community, on which dreary shyteheaps like Atecas and Tiguans are being held up as the paragon of car design?!
Come on. Those utterly woeful machines do absolutely nothing particularly well, other than sell to the aspirational middle classes on a wave of marketing b
ks! As for this utter bilge about not being able to exploit a RWD car's handling on a daily basis - frankly, if you believe that, were I appointed Her Britannic Majesty's Secretary of State for Transport, I would order your driving licenses to be confiscated, because if you can't tell the difference even at 40mph on a roundabout, you've no business being on the road.To owners of proper 4WD vehicles, especially those towing horseboxes or other work trailers, or using your cars off-road - I'm not complaining about you! The other day I met a couple of guys with a very muddy lifted Hilux with a winch on the front, massive chunky off-road tyres, a stripped and caged interior, and a supercharged 1UZ-FE V8 breathing through straight-pipe exhausts. That was DEEPLY cool.
RoverP6B said:
Sure, all of this means diddly squat to your average driver... but come on, isn't PH supposed to be a forum for CAR ENTHUSIASTS?! A forum set up for/by the TVR community, on which dreary shyteheaps like Atecas and Tiguans are being held up as the paragon of car design?!
Come on. Those utterly woeful machines do absolutely nothing particularly well, other than sell to the aspirational middle classes on a wave of marketing bks! As for this utter bilge about not being able to exploit a RWD car's handling on a daily basis - frankly, if you believe that, were I appointed Her Britannic Majesty's Secretary of State for Transport, I would order your driving licenses to be confiscated, because if you can't tell the difference even at 40mph on a roundabout, you've no business being on the road.
RWD in an understeery 16-year old 1750kg barge with no brakes might be the way YOU have fun. The public road might be where YOU have fun with it. Come on. Those utterly woeful machines do absolutely nothing particularly well, other than sell to the aspirational middle classes on a wave of marketing b
ks! As for this utter bilge about not being able to exploit a RWD car's handling on a daily basis - frankly, if you believe that, were I appointed Her Britannic Majesty's Secretary of State for Transport, I would order your driving licenses to be confiscated, because if you can't tell the difference even at 40mph on a roundabout, you've no business being on the road.That's not the way nor the place I have fun behind the wheel. And I don't care about marketing. I didn't choose to be middle class as I don't even know what that means, nor care. Good attempt at reverse snobbery though.
Edited by nickfrog on Saturday 28th October 21:48
Understeer? I assure you, when this car starts to lose traction, it does so at the rear. Yes, it's heavy, but the turn-in is sharp and instantaneous, the steering is hefty and full of feel (if not quite fizzing a la 911...), and I've done a few emergency stops in it from considerable speed while getting to know it - the brakes (with new Pagid calipers, which apparently were the original OEM fitment anyway) are pretty savage and stand up to repeated use, with no fade apparent.
Who's is talking about traction ? It's set up to understeer and even push understeer under a moderate throttle, like all road going RWD cars and there is nothing inherently wrong with that.
Can't you accept that people's priority when transporting their family is not to power slide ? Well, apart from not having to change the calipers
And that they might also have a more PH car that will be more neutral on turn-in. They certainly won't choose a 540i Estate for that.
But each to their own.
Can't you accept that people's priority when transporting their family is not to power slide ? Well, apart from not having to change the calipers
And that they might also have a more PH car that will be more neutral on turn-in. They certainly won't choose a 540i Estate for that.
But each to their own.
nickfrog said:
- why the 95 % again ?
Errrr because why on earth would anyone who claims to love cars and driving try to hobble themselves for 95% of their driving (or whatever other significant percentage of the time it is you claim to need to drive a practical car) by driving something as bland and boring as an Ateca/Tiguan or one of the countless other uninspiring SUV lookalikes?You may say, yes but in heavy traffic or with kids in tow what does it matter, or oh but I have another car for that once in a blue moon I actually get to use it? Why? I make sure that even sat still in traffic, or when transporting the kids at slow speed my cars inspire me. A special and/or rare car will be fun and satisfying even whilst sat in a motorway traffic jam. Something that cannot be said of your average SUV or 'soft roader' etc. Each to their own and all that but I'd loose the will to live (and drive) if I had to drive a soulless SUV any time a bit of practicality was called for.
Andy20vt said:
nickfrog said:
- why the 95 % again ?
Errrr because why on earth would anyone who claims to love cars and driving try to hobble themselves for 95% of their driving (or whatever other significant percentage of the time it is you claim to need to drive a practical car) by driving something as bland and boring as an Ateca/Tiguan or one of the countless other uninspiring SUV lookalikes?You may say, yes but in heavy traffic or with kids in tow what does it matter, or oh but I have another car for that once in a blue moon I actually get to use it? Why? I make sure that even sat still in traffic, or when transporting the kids at slow speed my cars inspire me. A special and/or rare car will be fun and satisfying even whilst sat in a motorway traffic jam. Something that cannot be said of your average SUV or 'soft roader' etc. Each to their own and all that but I'd loose the will to live (and drive) if I had to drive a soulless SUV any time a bit of practicality was called for.
- I never claimed to love cars, I love driving. Particularly on track. No idea why you say "once in a blue moon", for me it's 75% (100% minus 25%), which is somewhat more than 5%, hence my question.
I would lose the will to live in any of the bland, boring, soulless and uninspiring alternative family cars you came up with (Mondeo, 3er diesel estate), yet get non of the significant added practically/comfort/low running cost of the Tiguan (for our needs). But for the 3rd time, I have no issues if you find a Mondeo or a 3er estate inspiring, special, rare, fun and satisfying. I don't.
nickfrog said:
I see you haven't had a chance to read the thread, still - I never claimed to love cars, I love driving. Particularly on track.
No idea why you say "once in a blue moon", for me it's 75% (100% minus 25%), which is somewhat more than 5%, hence my question.
I would lose the will to live in any of the bland, boring, soulless and uninspiring alternative family cars you came up with (Mondeo, 3er diesel estate), yet get non of the significant added practically/comfort/low running cost of the Tiguan (for our needs). But for the 3rd time, I have no issues if you find a Mondeo or a 3er estate inspiring, special, rare, fun and satisfying. I don't.
Okay then why would you deliberately hobble yourself withe something so uninspiring for 75% of your driving? - I never claimed to love cars, I love driving. Particularly on track. No idea why you say "once in a blue moon", for me it's 75% (100% minus 25%), which is somewhat more than 5%, hence my question.
I would lose the will to live in any of the bland, boring, soulless and uninspiring alternative family cars you came up with (Mondeo, 3er diesel estate), yet get non of the significant added practically/comfort/low running cost of the Tiguan (for our needs). But for the 3rd time, I have no issues if you find a Mondeo or a 3er estate inspiring, special, rare, fun and satisfying. I don't.
Andy20vt said:
Okay then why would you deliberately hobble yourself withe something so uninspiring for 75% of your driving?
75% of my driving is in the Megane, which is in large part to and from track days and Ring/Spa trips. But the same outcome would apply if it's was 50% or even 25% anyway.As I explained a few times now, I don't hobble myself in the Tiguan as it is brilliant as family road transport or to carry my bike. Far better for that purpose than an uninspiring Mondeo or 3er.
Again, I have no issues with you if you prefer a Mondeo or a 3er and if you can have fun with them on the road ; conversely I am sure that by now you can understand that different people prefer different things for family transport or touring purposes.
I also think that I know what my preferences are better than you do.
nickfrog said:
75% of my driving is in the Megane, which is in large part to and from track days and Ring/Spa trips. But the same outcome would apply if it's was 50% or even 25% anyway.
As I explained a few times now, I don't hobble myself in the Tiguan as it is brilliant as family road transport or to carry my bike. Far better for that purpose than an uninspiring Mondeo or 3er.
Again, I have no issues with you if you prefer a Mondeo or a 3er and if you can have fun with them on the road ; conversely I am sure that by now you can understand that different people prefer different things for family transport or touring purposes.
I also think that I know what my preferences are better than you do.
Well if 75% of your driving is in the Megane then why would you buy (lease) an expensive new Tiguan for the remaining 25% if it's used so little and if it's going to have the kids mess it up anyway? As I explained a few times now, I don't hobble myself in the Tiguan as it is brilliant as family road transport or to carry my bike. Far better for that purpose than an uninspiring Mondeo or 3er.
Again, I have no issues with you if you prefer a Mondeo or a 3er and if you can have fun with them on the road ; conversely I am sure that by now you can understand that different people prefer different things for family transport or touring purposes.
I also think that I know what my preferences are better than you do.
With that sort of lowish mileage then I'd be looking at an older S4/S6, or an Alfa 159 Q4 Station Wagon or similar. Cheaper to buy due to the very heavy initial depreciation, lovely V8/V6 rumble, far nicer to drive than a Tiguan, far quicker, far nicer interiors (especially the Alfa), 4WD, more roomy/practical (if that's what turns you on) and something you don't see on the road every two minutes.
nickfrog said:
(I can fit my MTB in it with two wheels on, but I can't in a Golf Estate)
I struggle to believe that since I fitted my 29er FS MTB into a Ford Focus with both wheels on into a hired Ford Focus last year. Friends with Skoda Octavia's regularly fit 2-3 MTB's into the back with seats down and thats the same platform as a Golf Estate. We've even managed to fit 2 x FS mountain bikes with 2 x people into an Audi TT a few years back, not easy but possible. Still - how long does it take to remove a bolt through MTB front wheel - all of 15 seconds? So you bought an expensive Tiguan to save yourself 15 seconds? Haha
Andy20vt said:
Well if 75% of your driving is in the Megane then why would you buy (lease) an expensive new Tiguan for the remaining 25% if it's used so little and if it's going to have the kids mess it up anyway?
Errr... I share the Tiguan with my wife. My kids don't mess it up, they're teenagers.Andy20vt said:
With that sort of lowish mileage then I'd be looking at an older S4/S6, or an Alfa 159 Q4 Station Wagon or similar. Cheaper to buy due to the very heavy initial depreciation, lovely V8/V6 rumble, far nicer to drive than a Tiguan, far quicker, far nicer interiors (especially the Alfa), 4WD, more roomy/practical (if that's what turns you on) and something you don't see on the road every two minutes.
Hold on, I thought we were talking about Mondeo/3ers here ?As patiently explained to you, I find estates LESS practical, as opposed to MORE. Practicality is not a turn-on, it's a prerequisite.
Quicker ? On the road ? For family transport or go to B&Q ? The Alfa has a nice interior ? 4wd ? That's a big turn-off for starters.
Cheaper to buy has little to do with overall cost when you include additional fuel, warranty, repairs, tax, MOT, opportunity cost etc (we have none of that with the Tiguan, which is cheap as chips).
I am touched by your determination to show me the errors of my way, but don't forget, different people have different preferences. I prefer a leased diesel SUV for the purpose. I don't have an issue if you prefer an Audi/Alfa Estate.
Andy20vt said:
nickfrog said:
(I can fit my MTB in it with two wheels on, but I can't in a Golf Estate)
I struggle to believe that since I fitted my 29er FS MTB into a Ford Focus with both wheels on into a hired Ford Focus last year. Friends with Skoda Octavia's regularly fit 2-3 MTB's into the back with seats down and thats the same platform as a Golf Estate. We've even managed to fit 2 x FS mountain bikes with 2 x people into an Audi TT a few years back, not easy but possible. Still - how long does it take to remove a bolt through MTB front wheel - all of 15 seconds? So you bought an expensive Tiguan to save yourself 15 seconds? Haha
As patiently explained to you on numerous occasions, the Tiguan is very cheap, which is the opposite to expensive. It's £5,200 over 2 years. Cheap as chips compared to the actual total cost of a second hand S4/S6 with the same level of warranty, which we insist on.
So the practicality is in addition to the value for money. It's more practical for a variety of tasks, including cycling. When it comes to riding time, there is no little gain!
I have no issues if you prefer an estate to fit your bike though, but I prefer a Tiguan. As I said, different people prefer different things.
I am still quite impressed about your ability to know my needs better than me though. It's a little bit weird though
nickfrog said:
I am still quite impressed about your ability to know my needs better than me though.
It would seem that you don't 'NEED' a Tiguan though, just interested in understanding the logic as to why someone who claims to love driving would even have the remotest of interests in buying/driving something as dull and dead to drive as a Tiguan when there's clearly far better/nicer drives out there for very similar money. Why not make every drive special rather than just the 75% you do in your Renault? We only have a limited time on this planet so personally I would hate to miss out on some of the great, quiet driving roads that frequently co-inside with MTB trips just for another couple of cm headroom and a 15sec wheel removal saving. Some of the best drives I've had have been to and from MTB rides in Wales/Scotland.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff