ULEZ charge in 2021
Discussion
swisstoni said:
C70R said:
Wuzzle said:
NomduJour said:
It’s basic playing-to-the-crowd politics.
How utterly unexpected from the man who came up with the U-Lez, Boris Johnson.
Some people just can't miss an opportunity for a political cheap-shot.
Campaigning for clean air is hard to argue with (stymies your opponents) and it makes you look useful.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't...
NomduJour said:
C70R said:
Both the T-Charge and ULEZ affect all vehicles, not just private cars. So delivery vehicles will be targeted as a consequence - or am I missing something obvious?
Intriduce major incentives for electric local delivery vehicles, maybe, instead of pointlessly punishing private owners of cars which are by comparison barely used in the T-Charge or proposed ULEZ zones? Legislate for pollution controls on truck refrigeration units (removal of which would be the equivalent of 350,000 diesel cars)?Net pollution contribution of the majority of cars which will be effectively outlawed by the ULEZ must be insignificant - generally a few miles on the odd weekend.
Either this is going to affect the journeys of 10s of thousands of Londoners, or it's an insignificant number. It can't be both.
The refrigeration argument is an interesting one - if your numbers are right (source?), then I'd expect similar legislation to be passed on to them.
As for the fully-electric delivery vehicle thing, I would imagine that incentivisation will come once the infrastructure is in place. At present, there is no way that London could support that, so an ICE-hybrid would be the best solution all round. You make some good points, but all of this is a case of taking steps in the right direction - that idea is basically trying to long-jump before we can walk.
CoolHands said:
Its all bulls
t until they get rid of fking disgusting black cabs and buses; which they aren't.
Almost a third of all TfL buses are hybrid (or hydrogen/electric), with a much higher proportion running the central routes; and every London taxi made since 2007 has been Euro4 compliant (the required level for the ULEZ).t until they get rid of fking disgusting black cabs and buses; which they aren't.Always worth doing some research before ranting.
C70R said:
CoolHands said:
Its all bullst until they get rid of fking disgusting black cabs and buses; which they aren't.
Almost a third of all TfL buses are hybrid (or hydrogen/electric), with a much higher proportion running the central routes; and every London taxi made since 2007 has been Euro4 compliant (the required level for the ULEZ).t until they get rid of fking disgusting black cabs and buses; which they aren't.Always worth doing some research before ranting.
t being chucked out daily. Maybe I should believe marketing bumf from the town hall ehC70R said:
Wait - the anti-ULEZ argument can't have it both ways.
Either this is going to affect the journeys of 10s of thousands of Londoners, or it's an insignificant number. It can't be both
Just because you’re restricting short and probably irregular journeys - which consequently make a negligible contribution to pollution - doesn’t make it any less of an inconvenience. I imagine my car use in the proposed ULEZ is fairly typical - banning my short, and more often weekend, journeys in any of the well-maintained post-40 year tax-exempt/pre-Euro 4 cars I own is unquestionably a massive inconvenience - and an unreasonable restriction. Either this is going to affect the journeys of 10s of thousands of Londoners, or it's an insignificant number. It can't be both
As a business user - like a cabbie, sitting in the T-Charge/ULEZ zone with the engine running all day, every day - I’d expect to have to mitigate the pollution I’m causing. Outlawing tens and tens of thousands of perfectly-serviceable private cars which potentially might just make an immeasurable contribution to pollution is just stupid.
C70R said:
Almost a third of all TfL buses are hybrid (or hydrogen/electric), with a much higher proportion running the central routes; and every London taxi made since 2007 has been Euro4 compliant (the required level for the ULEZ).
Always worth doing some research before ranting.
Only last week I saw a new Routemaster (one of the ones introduced by BoJo to be clear), stopped at a bus stop (by the Saatchi gallery, line 11) stopped, with the doors opened and belching out a thick cloud of black smoke. Behind it, a couple of black cabs idling and waiting for it to depart from the stop again. This went on for a good 5 minutes. So who checks the maintenance level of these buses and the fact that they don't end up being significantly more polluting than expected? On a similar note, what with the slightly older Volvos (still hybrid, mind you) that appear to constantly have a broken/unbalanced fan, rattling around like the worst maintained P38? Always worth doing some research before ranting.
C70R said:
Wuzzle said:
NomduJour said:
It’s basic playing-to-the-crowd politics.
How utterly unexpected from the man who came up with the U-Lez, Boris Johnson.Some people just can't miss an opportunity for a political cheap-shot.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-21443439
Feb 2013 - Boris Johnson announces plans for U-Lez.
Can we try to stick to facts rather than opinion???
C70R said:
CoolHands said:
Its all bullst until they get rid of fking disgusting black cabs and buses; which they aren't.
Almost a third of all TfL buses are hybrid (or hydrogen/electric), with a much higher proportion running the central routes; and every London taxi made since 2007 has been Euro4 compliant (the required level for the ULEZ).t until they get rid of fking disgusting black cabs and buses; which they aren't.C70R said:
If you think the bolded bit is true, I'm wasting my time replying to you.
The whole premise of this thread is that London is an old city which is inherently unsuited to having to cart multiples of millions of people around all/every day. As a consequence, the road network is jam-packed, and the air quality is poor. To solve this, the people who are contributing most to the issue (single-drivers in more heavily polluting cars) are being financially disincentivised. Freeing up this space (of the supposedly "loads" of people who are "forced" to travel by car) will improve travel and health for the vast vast majority of Londoners.
Oddly, in the grand scheme of London, car owners (like me) are in a minority. There are a third as many cars as there are people in London, yet they prohibit the movement and health of everyone.
With this in mind, saying "I will drive my car until my dying day because the bus smells" feels incredibly selfish.
C70, do you work in Sadiq’s press office? You write like a politicians lacky.The whole premise of this thread is that London is an old city which is inherently unsuited to having to cart multiples of millions of people around all/every day. As a consequence, the road network is jam-packed, and the air quality is poor. To solve this, the people who are contributing most to the issue (single-drivers in more heavily polluting cars) are being financially disincentivised. Freeing up this space (of the supposedly "loads" of people who are "forced" to travel by car) will improve travel and health for the vast vast majority of Londoners.
Oddly, in the grand scheme of London, car owners (like me) are in a minority. There are a third as many cars as there are people in London, yet they prohibit the movement and health of everyone.
With this in mind, saying "I will drive my car until my dying day because the bus smells" feels incredibly selfish.
I note you didn’t address any of my points about the capacity of public transport issues; much rather willy wave about how selfless you are.
I don’t see where I said public transport is bad; I merely said it’s barely able to cope *now*.
Do you think all of the people who drive in a gridlocked city do so out of selfishness? Yes, you might be right on as much as a quarter of those who drive - I’ll grant you that - but has it not escaped your reasoning that perhaps public transport is very costly, inconvenient or practically unworkable for them? You think people drive in horrific traffic for the fun of it?
Edited by bgunn on Tuesday 24th October 13:37
C70R said:
As for the fully-electric delivery vehicle thing, I would imagine that incentivisation will come once the infrastructure is in place. At present, there is no way that London could support that, so an ICE-hybrid would be the best solution all round.
C70R said:
Almost a third of all TfL buses are hybrid (or hydrogen/electric), with a much higher proportion running the central routes; and every London taxi made since 2007 has been Euro4 compliant (the required level for the ULEZ).
Always worth doing some research before ranting.
I've never got why London buses especially weren't one of the first vehicles to be electrified. Where do they go at the end of the day? or do they run 24/7? If there is a bus depo surely having charging points like Tesla have a motorway service stations or Shell are bringing out for their filling stations would be an easy thing to implement?Always worth doing some research before ranting.
Willy Nilly said:
egor110 said:
Older cars are far simpler and far easier to keep going than modern cars as they weren't required to jump thru the current emission hoops.
Of course the car makers would love you to think that cars die after 11 years and even better you need to get a new one every 3 years.
No machine I have ever used has got better with age. The older cars that are now simpler than the current cars, were once modern cars and more complex than cars 10 years older. The fact remains, that by 11 years of age, most cars are in the last 3rd or quarter of their lives. They are no longer the high mileage hacks pounding the nations highways because they are too old and too high maintainance. Of course the car makers would love you to think that cars die after 11 years and even better you need to get a new one every 3 years.
My current fun car is a 1928 vintage Humber which has about 2/3 thousand miles clocked up each year.
The Humber is fairly high maintenance but the Skoda is simply MOT and engine oil/filter change each year. I check other important bits as well, no problem, in fact my wife refuses to scrap it.
C70R said:
swisstoni said:
C70R said:
Wuzzle said:
NomduJour said:
It’s basic playing-to-the-crowd politics.
How utterly unexpected from the man who came up with the U-Lez, Boris Johnson.Some people just can't miss an opportunity for a political cheap-shot.
Campaigning for clean air is hard to argue with (stymies your opponents) and it makes you look useful.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't...
But if it’s a matter of life and death like it’s being portrayed, fiddling about with a few old cars is actually doing very little to help.
Where are the big brave projects?
C70R said:
crankedup said:
C70R said:
crankedup said:
C70R said:
gavsdavs said:
C70R said:
You realise that taxis (including Private Hires) worked before Uber arrived.
The people who say it "won't work" for them are those who don't want it to work.
I want an effective deterrent to reduce unneccessary journeys, but there's a flip side - if i want to take my non-compliant car out (i.e. head straight out of the enlarged charging zone at 6am on a sunday) - should I have to pay £10 to start my car ?The people who say it "won't work" for them are those who don't want it to work.
Monday to friday 7am-7pm I totally get. Weekends less so. I also think enlarging the charging zone to the north and south circulars has it's own set of problems.
London is a densely populated city. By choosing to live in a densely populated city, you make the decision that you're willing to share your space with lots of other people. Part of this concession is that you might have to do something vaguely selfless, for the benefit of everyone else.
Personally it makes no difference to me but it’s plainly obvious that dirty cars are soon to be off the road completely.
On the basis that we can't build any more London roads...
Should we prioritise the minority (a third as many private cars as people in London) to punish the majority?
Should we just let more and more private vehicles use the road until it's constant gridlock?
Should we just let more and more older vehicles use the road until the air quality is worse than third-world countries?
Seems a strange place to come and wave your self righteous flag against cars, a motoring forum.
98% of the UK is going to remain completely unrestricted, but we need to address one of the world's most densely populated cities.
Given that air quality and congestion are likely to be major issues for London on the coming years, how do you suggest we solve them?
ETA - Just checked your profile, and you don't live anywhere near the proposed zone (you're practically in Ipswich FFS). Why so vociferous about something which will likely never affect you? As someone who actually lives here, inside the proposed zone, and travels here every day, I feel like I'm a bit closer to the issue than you.
Edited by C70R on Tuesday 24th October 09:00
You suggest because I live in Suffolk the issues will not affect me!! Bit of blinkered thought process me thinks, how about I have family who live and work in London, I suggest you consider more or ask questions of a poster before jumping to wrong conclusions. This issue will greatly affect me and my family.
You do realise that dirty cars contribute just 1% of the total pollutant in terms of not and particulate?
Having said that I do agree that action needs to be taken to address the polluted air in London, other. katie’s soon to follow. Unfortunately, as is often the case with Government, the easy solution is to tax the problem and remove the less well off from the equation. As a positive note perhaps the Government could force car manufacturers, especially the German brands, to provide cleaning software onto the dirty engines. VW recently proved that this is possible to clean up emissions, although I am not an engineer I feel sure that enough brain power exists for some modifications made to older cars. Likely won’t happen because the big manufacturers are so much a more difficult animal to tame than the little man in the street.
mygoldfishbowl said:
crankedup said:
Bit OTT reaction again. Our Governments recommended oil burners to the buying public, now these people are to be penalised! If oil burners of a certain age are to be penalised then all oil burners should be treated the same. As always it’s a financial penalty that will solve the problem, tax the buggers, that’al work. Equal in Society and all that. Look at the bigger boys who pollute, like the aviation industry for example, how much crap is blown into our cities when these things take to the air and land.
Seems a strange place to come and wave your self righteous flag against cars, a motoring forum.
Yep London is surrounded by five airports, pollution & unburnt fuel fall back to earth while aircraft are within three miles of the ground. Another large source of pollution in London is air conditioning units running 24hrs per day in office blocks yet the mayor's answer to this is to ban residential log burners in some areas. Seems a strange place to come and wave your self righteous flag against cars, a motoring forum.
I used to earn a lot of money driving in & out of London but don't do it anymore & quite honestly wouldn't care if London shriveled up & blew away. What these green people don't seem to get is that London's air is cleaner now than it has ever been yet in 10, 20, 30 years time reports will still say it's filthy & we will all have to dig a little deeper in taxes to get it cleaner.
up yes I certainly agree there is a problem we must solve, but all stick and no carrot is not the way forward in the longer term imo.
swisstoni said:
C70R said:
swisstoni said:
C70R said:
Wuzzle said:
NomduJour said:
It’s basic playing-to-the-crowd politics.
How utterly unexpected from the man who came up with the U-Lez, Boris Johnson.Some people just can't miss an opportunity for a political cheap-shot.
Campaigning for clean air is hard to argue with (stymies your opponents) and it makes you look useful.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't...
But if it’s a matter of life and death like it’s being portrayed, fiddling about with a few old cars is actually doing very little to help.
Where are the big brave projects?
CoolHands said:
C70R said:
CoolHands said:
Its all bullst until they get rid of fking disgusting black cabs and buses; which they aren't.
Almost a third of all TfL buses are hybrid (or hydrogen/electric), with a much higher proportion running the central routes; and every London taxi made since 2007 has been Euro4 compliant (the required level for the ULEZ).t until they get rid of fking disgusting black cabs and buses; which they aren't.Always worth doing some research before ranting.
t being chucked out daily. Maybe I should believe marketing bumf from the town hall ehYou can check your registration here for the T charge to see if your car is exempt
https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/emissions-surchar...
https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/emissions-surchar...
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