ULEZ charge in 2021
Discussion
Biggest issues are time, convenience and hygiene.
People are time starved, every extra minute at home/in bed is valuable. How could doubling a daily travel time be seen as a reasonable step?
Public transport is unreliable, overcrowded and expensive - hence why I ride a motorbike (also set to be caught up from 2021) to work in the City. Buses and trains don't have the capacity to take in everybody, beyond that they rarely run to schedule, with travel times that require you to build in a barrier of error, you can't just take the normal bus/train in the knowledge that 1/10 times you'll be late. You'd lose your job pretty quickly....
For me and my bike I have no other option and am loathed to buy a newer one as insurance is only affordable on a TPO basis and it'd just be stolen. My hours require me to be at my desk between 6am and 6:45am and I leave any time from 17:30 and 1am - public transport wouldn't work.
Buses and trains are dirty and you're surrounded by chav's, people that seem to think they don't need to wash and those that try their active best to spread whatever cold they tend to have that week. The seats are often covered in gum, the floors are sticky and the windows well licked....no thanks!
The biggest issue for pollution are buses and taxi's (said as a biker and cyclist), ban buses and taxi's from diesel (even hybrid diesel) and watch the pollution fall overnight - just like the bus strike days....
People are time starved, every extra minute at home/in bed is valuable. How could doubling a daily travel time be seen as a reasonable step?
Public transport is unreliable, overcrowded and expensive - hence why I ride a motorbike (also set to be caught up from 2021) to work in the City. Buses and trains don't have the capacity to take in everybody, beyond that they rarely run to schedule, with travel times that require you to build in a barrier of error, you can't just take the normal bus/train in the knowledge that 1/10 times you'll be late. You'd lose your job pretty quickly....
For me and my bike I have no other option and am loathed to buy a newer one as insurance is only affordable on a TPO basis and it'd just be stolen. My hours require me to be at my desk between 6am and 6:45am and I leave any time from 17:30 and 1am - public transport wouldn't work.
Buses and trains are dirty and you're surrounded by chav's, people that seem to think they don't need to wash and those that try their active best to spread whatever cold they tend to have that week. The seats are often covered in gum, the floors are sticky and the windows well licked....no thanks!
The biggest issue for pollution are buses and taxi's (said as a biker and cyclist), ban buses and taxi's from diesel (even hybrid diesel) and watch the pollution fall overnight - just like the bus strike days....
This whole issue is hysteria. There is a nice link
https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/emissions-surchar...
Which tells you if your car is exempt or not. Of my previous cars only a '03 Polo TDI would need to pay more. My old '01 Fabia is exempt as is my dads '03 Volvo 2.4i
People are trotting this beleaguered poor people but honestly wtf are the poor or poor buisnesses doing operating in central london when peoples health is at risk just to save a few mins or because they have equipment?
If its a buisness its tax deductable, if personal use wtf are you doing driving into zone 1?
Perhaps if current zone extended maybe the cost would be less but still. I cycle or take tube to work most days, its near impossible to park unless you pay several £/day anyway. So really don't see what fuss is about.
Am I'm missing something
https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/emissions-surchar...
Which tells you if your car is exempt or not. Of my previous cars only a '03 Polo TDI would need to pay more. My old '01 Fabia is exempt as is my dads '03 Volvo 2.4i
People are trotting this beleaguered poor people but honestly wtf are the poor or poor buisnesses doing operating in central london when peoples health is at risk just to save a few mins or because they have equipment?
If its a buisness its tax deductable, if personal use wtf are you doing driving into zone 1?
Perhaps if current zone extended maybe the cost would be less but still. I cycle or take tube to work most days, its near impossible to park unless you pay several £/day anyway. So really don't see what fuss is about.
Am I'm missing something
kiethton said:
Public transport is unreliable, overcrowded and expensive ... they rarely run to schedule, with travel times that require you to build in a barrier of error, you can't just take the normal bus/train in the knowledge that 1/10 times you'll be late. You'd lose your job pretty quickly....
With the greatest of respect, that's absolute b*llocks. I take bus/train/tube every morning, and my arrival time is +/-5mins.kiethton said:
Buses and trains are dirty and you're surrounded by chav's, people that seem to think they don't need to wash and those that try their active best to spread whatever cold they tend to have that week. The seats are often covered in gum, the floors are sticky and the windows well licked....no thanks!
Well, it took 3pgs, but your true motivations are outed. With the greatest of respect, you're coming across as a massive snob.shost said:
This whole issue is hysteria. There is a nice link
https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/emissions-surchar...
Which tells you if your car is exempt or not. Of my previous cars only a '03 Polo TDI would need to pay more. My old '01 Fabia is exempt as is my dads '03 Volvo 2.4i
People are trotting this beleaguered poor people but honestly wtf are the poor or poor buisnesses doing operating in central london when peoples health is at risk just to save a few mins or because they have equipment?
If its a buisness its tax deductable, if personal use wtf are you doing driving into zone 1?
Perhaps if current zone extended maybe the cost would be less but still. I cycle or take tube to work most days, its near impossible to park unless you pay several £/day anyway. So really don't see what fuss is about.
Am I'm missing something
This. So much this.https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/emissions-surchar...
Which tells you if your car is exempt or not. Of my previous cars only a '03 Polo TDI would need to pay more. My old '01 Fabia is exempt as is my dads '03 Volvo 2.4i
People are trotting this beleaguered poor people but honestly wtf are the poor or poor buisnesses doing operating in central london when peoples health is at risk just to save a few mins or because they have equipment?
If its a buisness its tax deductable, if personal use wtf are you doing driving into zone 1?
Perhaps if current zone extended maybe the cost would be less but still. I cycle or take tube to work most days, its near impossible to park unless you pay several £/day anyway. So really don't see what fuss is about.
Am I'm missing something
Every time one of these threads comes up, with people laying into how rubbish public transport is, and needlessly defending their right to drive like it's an American Amendment.
C70R said:
kiethton said:
Public transport is unreliable, overcrowded and expensive ... they rarely run to schedule, with travel times that require you to build in a barrier of error, you can't just take the normal bus/train in the knowledge that 1/10 times you'll be late. You'd lose your job pretty quickly....
With the greatest of respect, that's absolute b*llocks. I take bus/train/tube every morning, and my arrival time is +/-5mins.kiethton said:
Buses and trains are dirty and you're surrounded by chav's, people that seem to think they don't need to wash and those that try their active best to spread whatever cold they tend to have that week. The seats are often covered in gum, the floors are sticky and the windows well licked....no thanks!
Well, it took 3pgs, but your true motivations are outed. With the greatest of respect, you're coming across as a massive snob.My 5:40am train (if I have to take it) is pretty hit and miss, especially on a Monday - countless times I've been stuck at London Bridge/Cannon st with issues too....
Far from a snob, if you had to take buses around our way you'd soon realise why....
They ban UBER for being a danger to the public yet allow the disgusting black cabs to continue their 26% NOx (of the total contributers in London) into the London atmosphere. Charge joe public so they can replace the fleet and continue to charge the Londoner rediculous fee's for their taxi journey's..... I love London but seriously hate how f
king backwards TFL and our Mayor is on this subject.
king backwards TFL and our Mayor is on this subject. C70R said:
You realise that taxis (including Private Hires) worked before Uber arrived.
The people who say it "won't work" for them are those who don't want it to work.
I want an effective deterrent to reduce unneccessary journeys, but there's a flip side - if i want to take my non-compliant car out (i.e. head straight out of the enlarged charging zone at 6am on a sunday) - should I have to pay £10 to start my car ?The people who say it "won't work" for them are those who don't want it to work.
Monday to friday 7am-7pm I totally get. Weekends less so. I also think enlarging the charging zone to the north and south circulars has it's own set of problems.
C70R said:
So you're effectively saying that your currently scenario was a complete smokescreen, (which failed) to highlight the issue?
As for the "huge number of people", TfL isn't proposing a reduction in public transport or cutting their legs off - they still have all of the same options that I've spent the past two pages highlighting.
As for the taxi thing, we were talking about your imaginary, mandatory, once-weekly shopping trip - where you couldn't possibly carry everything you needed on public transport. A tenner a week (assuming your imaginary schedule - remember, you can take the bus there!) is the same as just taxing a 2006 car, without even thinking about petrol, insurance etc.
You still haven't made a single compelling argument.
Good luck in using the already completely over stretched public transport network in 2021 when another glut of people forced out of their cars start using it (plus natural growth that takes a generation before a new train route is built to cope with, etc).As for the "huge number of people", TfL isn't proposing a reduction in public transport or cutting their legs off - they still have all of the same options that I've spent the past two pages highlighting.
As for the taxi thing, we were talking about your imaginary, mandatory, once-weekly shopping trip - where you couldn't possibly carry everything you needed on public transport. A tenner a week (assuming your imaginary schedule - remember, you can take the bus there!) is the same as just taxing a 2006 car, without even thinking about petrol, insurance etc.
You still haven't made a single compelling argument.
Edited by C70R on Monday 23 October 14:38
Maybe your idealistic view with your perfect route fails to take account of the fact that even anecdotally amongst my peer group, it’s quite obvious that London’s transport network is *significantly* busier than it was years ago. I’ve been in London 17 years and there’s been no meaningful improvement in the time it takes to get across the city *using public transport*
I’m all for efficient ways to get across the city, but you fail to see that the network is crammed full, if you wish to travel at the peak. It’s all very well saying “take umbrage with your employer”, but why should I? Why can’t I just get across this supposed twenty first century city when I need to without:
A) being punitively charged for the privilege
B) being forced to use hopelessly overcrowded public transport
Or C) walking.
Your argument seems rather bombastic and lacking the understanding of why people feel the *need* (not desire) to drive.
Two weeks ago we were told that UBER's license will not be renewed due to public safety yet the black cab is considered safe.... black cabs are accountable for 26% Particulate Matter contribution in London.
Given the significance here surely TFL should be looking into replacing their fleet through legislation (not simply incentivising drivers of black cabs with £5k) or alternatively reducing the fleet and partnering with UBER/alternatives for a much cleaner transport solution?
As of Jan 16 12,429 Toyota Prius minicabs were registered in London. Whilst there are plans in place to replace black cabs with greener alternatives its incredible to think that the potential air pollution benefits UBER/alternative bring are disregarded due to an apparant public safety issue.
If the government is truly concerned with London air quality surely they should be leveraging alternative options and building relationships with progressive forward thinking firms like UBER.
That was going to go on Linkedin but I couldnt be bothered with debates about black cabs and brexit...... basically its simply another way to make money, they clearly couldnt give a st as they have a fleet of cancerous death machines on the roads (the black cab) which they arent removing forcefully.
Given the significance here surely TFL should be looking into replacing their fleet through legislation (not simply incentivising drivers of black cabs with £5k) or alternatively reducing the fleet and partnering with UBER/alternatives for a much cleaner transport solution?
As of Jan 16 12,429 Toyota Prius minicabs were registered in London. Whilst there are plans in place to replace black cabs with greener alternatives its incredible to think that the potential air pollution benefits UBER/alternative bring are disregarded due to an apparant public safety issue.
If the government is truly concerned with London air quality surely they should be leveraging alternative options and building relationships with progressive forward thinking firms like UBER.
That was going to go on Linkedin but I couldnt be bothered with debates about black cabs and brexit...... basically its simply another way to make money, they clearly couldnt give a s
t as they have a fleet of cancerous death machines on the roads (the black cab) which they arent removing forcefully. kiethton said:
What time are you taking the service at?
My 5:40am train (if I have to take it) is pretty hit and miss, especially on a Monday - countless times I've been stuck at London Bridge/Cannon st with issues too....
Far from a snob, if you had to take buses around our way you'd soon realise why....
So you are telling me that despite having no choice to drive directly into central london you also choose to do this in a car at least 10 years old?My 5:40am train (if I have to take it) is pretty hit and miss, especially on a Monday - countless times I've been stuck at London Bridge/Cannon st with issues too....
Far from a snob, if you had to take buses around our way you'd soon realise why....
What about drive park and take tube?
gavsdavs said:
C70R said:
You realise that taxis (including Private Hires) worked before Uber arrived.
The people who say it "won't work" for them are those who don't want it to work.
I want an effective deterrent to reduce unneccessary journeys, but there's a flip side - if i want to take my non-compliant car out (i.e. head straight out of the enlarged charging zone at 6am on a sunday) - should I have to pay £10 to start my car ?The people who say it "won't work" for them are those who don't want it to work.
Monday to friday 7am-7pm I totally get. Weekends less so. I also think enlarging the charging zone to the north and south circulars has it's own set of problems.
London is a densely populated city. By choosing to live in a densely populated city, you make the decision that you're willing to share your space with lots of other people. Part of this concession is that you might have to do something vaguely selfless, for the benefit of everyone else.
kiethton said:
C70R said:
kiethton said:
Public transport is unreliable, overcrowded and expensive ... they rarely run to schedule, with travel times that require you to build in a barrier of error, you can't just take the normal bus/train in the knowledge that 1/10 times you'll be late. You'd lose your job pretty quickly....
With the greatest of respect, that's absolute b*llocks. I take bus/train/tube every morning, and my arrival time is +/-5mins.kiethton said:
Buses and trains are dirty and you're surrounded by chav's, people that seem to think they don't need to wash and those that try their active best to spread whatever cold they tend to have that week. The seats are often covered in gum, the floors are sticky and the windows well licked....no thanks!
Well, it took 3pgs, but your true motivations are outed. With the greatest of respect, you're coming across as a massive snob.My 5:40am train (if I have to take it) is pretty hit and miss, especially on a Monday - countless times I've been stuck at London Bridge/Cannon st with issues too....
Far from a snob, if you had to take buses around our way you'd soon realise why....
bgunn said:
C70R said:
So you're effectively saying that your currently scenario was a complete smokescreen, (which failed) to highlight the issue?
As for the "huge number of people", TfL isn't proposing a reduction in public transport or cutting their legs off - they still have all of the same options that I've spent the past two pages highlighting.
As for the taxi thing, we were talking about your imaginary, mandatory, once-weekly shopping trip - where you couldn't possibly carry everything you needed on public transport. A tenner a week (assuming your imaginary schedule - remember, you can take the bus there!) is the same as just taxing a 2006 car, without even thinking about petrol, insurance etc.
You still haven't made a single compelling argument.
Good luck in using the already completely over stretched public transport network in 2021 when another glut of people forced out of their cars start using it (plus natural growth that takes a generation before a new train route is built to cope with, etc).As for the "huge number of people", TfL isn't proposing a reduction in public transport or cutting their legs off - they still have all of the same options that I've spent the past two pages highlighting.
As for the taxi thing, we were talking about your imaginary, mandatory, once-weekly shopping trip - where you couldn't possibly carry everything you needed on public transport. A tenner a week (assuming your imaginary schedule - remember, you can take the bus there!) is the same as just taxing a 2006 car, without even thinking about petrol, insurance etc.
You still haven't made a single compelling argument.
Edited by C70R on Monday 23 October 14:38
Maybe your idealistic view with your perfect route fails to take account of the fact that even anecdotally amongst my peer group, it’s quite obvious that London’s transport network is *significantly* busier than it was years ago. I’ve been in London 17 years and there’s been no meaningful improvement in the time it takes to get across the city *using public transport*
I’m all for efficient ways to get across the city, but you fail to see that the network is crammed full, if you wish to travel at the peak. It’s all very well saying “take umbrage with your employer”, but why should I? Why can’t I just get across this supposed twenty first century city when I need to without:
A) being punitively charged for the privilege
B) being forced to use hopelessly overcrowded public transport
Or C) walking.
Your argument seems rather bombastic and lacking the understanding of why people feel the *need* (not desire) to drive.
The whole premise of this thread is that London is an old city which is inherently unsuited to having to cart multiples of millions of people around all/every day. As a consequence, the road network is jam-packed, and the air quality is poor. To solve this, the people who are contributing most to the issue (single-drivers in more heavily polluting cars) are being financially disincentivised. Freeing up this space (of the supposedly "loads" of people who are "forced" to travel by car) will improve travel and health for the vast vast majority of Londoners.
Oddly, in the grand scheme of London, car owners (like me) are in a minority. There are a third as many cars as there are people in London, yet they prohibit the movement and health of everyone.
With this in mind, saying "I will drive my car until my dying day because the bus smells" feels incredibly selfish.
shost said:
So you are telling me that despite having no choice to drive directly into central london you also choose to do this in a car at least 10 years old?
What about drive park and take tube?
Motorbike that's 14 years old.....also planned to be caught up in this next wave of bWhat about drive park and take tube?
kskiethton said:
shost said:
So you are telling me that despite having no choice to drive directly into central london you also choose to do this in a car at least 10 years old?
What about drive park and take tube?
Motorbike that's 14 years old.....also planned to be caught up in this next wave of bWhat about drive park and take tube?
ks
You're really trying hard to look for the problems here.
The motorbike legislation will limit you to Euro 3 compliant bikes only - so basically any bike built in the last 12 years. Such hardship. How will you ever cope?
C70R said:
TheAngryDog said:
C70R said:
Rovinghawk said:
C70R said:
What is this spurious "equipment" you're talking about?
In my case a theodolite, tripod, survey staff, coupla cans of spraypaint, sledgehammer & a few steel pins plus a laptop & a packed lunch.It's your employer you should take umbrage with, not TfL.
My point is that not everyone can do without a vehicle for their work; in the words of Boris Johnson, we can't all just sell each other cappuccino over the internet. Those of us who do real, physical stuff need vehicles & this ULEZ makes our work massively more difficult unless we upgrade the vehicle fleets. Another reason to avoid London unless payscales (ie costs to clients) increase significantly.
bgunn said:
Maybe your idealistic view with your perfect route fails to take account of the fact that even anecdotally amongst my peer group, it’s quite obvious that London’s transport network is *significantly* busier than it was years ago. I’ve been in London 17 years and there’s been no meaningful improvement in the time it takes to get across the city *using public transport*
17 years ago the jubilee line stopped at Charing Cross- if you wanted to go east of tower gateway you were going out via fenchurch street or over the DLR. It is now one of the major cross london arteries.Ditto the "east london line extension" - this has hugely opened up southeast london to north east london. (I live at canada water and it's made a massive difference to how busy that is)
Maybe we shouln't mention cross rail - the biggest piece of civil engineering in europe, either.
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