ULEZ charge in 2021

[Guvernator]

C70R said:

What does bitterness have to do with improving air quality? The answer, absolutely nothing. Therefore, what's the purpose of being consumed by anger at something which has ultimately good intentions?

If you absolutely must have a diesel (for reasons that I'm not clear on), then you have your pick of almost anything produced since 2016. Not really the same as having "no viable alternative", is it? Please drop the melodrama - it doesn't help discussion.

It's pretty simple. If you live in, or make your living in London, you have a duty to the 8.8m people who live here and breath the air. Everything else is irrelevant.

I don't have to have diesel, this isn't about me justifying my car, just pointing out the simple fact that many people won't be able to afford to change to a 2016 vehicle, this will hit tradesmen in particular rather hard, there are examples on this very thread. It's easy to pontificate about improving air quality when it's not your money or livelihood on the line. The financial implications of this for some people will be rather severe, not sure why me pointing that out or that it was another similar government policy that forced most people down this dead end seems to offend you so much.

[DonkeyApple]

The end consumer ultimately pays as per the CC. It is a cost of doing business and it is borne by the end consumer, who is also typically the recipient of the upside.

[Schmoopy]

C70R said:

Nobody is telling you to scrap it.
Would you prefer that every car was stopped and tested on entry? Or should they do something which is actually manageable?

But it will be worth fk all now. If they wanted to they could use the MOT emissions data, the blanket age ban is wrong. it would also give people the opportunity to keep their cars like school busses and lorries etc that have been allowed into the low emissions zone if they were modified to comply.

[bad company]

C70R said:

bad company said:

C70R said:

What does bitterness have to do with improving air quality? The answer, absolutely nothing. Therefore, what's the purpose of being consumed by anger at something which has ultimately good intentions?

If you absolutely must have a diesel (for reasons that I'm not clear on), then you have your pick of almost anything produced since 2016. Not really the same as having "no viable alternative", is it? Please drop the melodrama - it doesn't help discussion.

It's pretty simple. If you live in, or make your living in London, you have a duty to the 8.8m people who live here and breath the air. Everything else is irrelevant.

What about the poor sods who bought diesels a few years ago thinking they were doing the right thing?

They can swap them for any petrol car produced since 2004. You're still being melodramatic.

And what value will there be in the diesels they have to sell? I'm not being melodramatic, this is very wrong.

[Schmoopy]

My local garage have a recovery truck they use for occasional recoveries, its pre 2004 but meets all the low emissions zone criteria. It does 5000 miles or less, but is obviously useful to have and saves customers money. To change that to a 2016 or newer would cost the best part of £20,000.

The local builder who bought a 2015 transit van a few months ago , has now seen their van devalued by thousands and again they will need to find a lot more money to replace the perfectly good van they've just bought.

Now I'm a good few miles away from the ultra low emissions zone, I'm not even in greater london. Yet it will affect them.

I am also an environmentalist, so believe me i agree that something needs to be done. But it needs to make sense, and this doesn't.

[DonkeyApple]

Schmoopy said:

C70R said:

Nobody is telling you to scrap it.
Would you prefer that every car was stopped and tested on entry? Or should they do something which is actually manageable?

But it will be worth fk all now. If they wanted to they could use the MOT emissions data, the blanket age ban is wrong. it would also give people the opportunity to keep their cars like school busses and lorries etc that have been allowed into the low emissions zone if they were modified to comply.

It really won’t be. There is a whole world outside of Greater London that will still pay for a pre 2004 car.

I don’t mean to be rude but a car that old probably isn’t worth all that much these days and that does tend to mean the regional price variances are not that big.

More to the point the ULEZ really is about curbing commuting into Town from the sticks by car. Even if you buy a complaint car today you will be doing so knowing that it probably will not remain compliant for long.

[bad company]

Seriously guys, sign the petition. It's all most of us can do:-

https://www.change.org/p/sadiq-khan-stop-mayor-kha...

Anyone living in London area it's probably also worth a letter to their MP.

[Schmoopy]

But it will be worth less as thats 8.8 million potential buyers now not interested, not to mention anyone within sneezing distance of a big town as they will be worried about it happening to them.
Theres also going to be the glut of pre 2004 cars for sale making them worth even less. So they are expected to pluck the money out of thin air to buy a post 2004 car (which has now gone up slightly in value).

All whilst that 2004 car emits more? Where is the logic?

[DonkeyApple]

Schmoopy said:

My local garage have a recovery truck they use for occasional recoveries, its pre 2004 but meets all the low emissions zone criteria. It does 5000 miles or less, but is obviously useful to have and saves customers money. To change that to a 2016 or newer would cost the best part of £20,000.

The local builder who bought a 2015 transit van a few months ago , has now seen their van devalued by thousands and again they will need to find a lot more money to replace the perfectly good van they've just bought.

Now I'm a good few miles away from the ultra low emissions zone, I'm not even in greater london. Yet it will affect them.

I am also an environmentalist, so believe me i agree that something needs to be done. But it needs to make sense, and this doesn't.

Re the chap with the van: why is he worse off? How do you know he isn’t better off? What’s changed about what he can write off against tax? What’s actually changed about the value of the van? What’s the differential between paying the charge and paying to buy a new van? How did he pay for the new van anyway? Or is it a lease? How regularly does he cross into London and for what purpose?

[egor110]

Guvernator said:

You seem to fail to grasp the problem. Yes there are petrol cars available but a high percentage of people drive diesel cars now as a direct result of being heavily incentivised to do so by the government. Also a huge majority of commercial VAN's and cars etc are diesel with no real viable alternative.

Of course poor air quality is a real issue, everyone knows this but it was one that was largely caused by bad government policy in the first place, therefore can you not understand why people might be a just a bit bitter about the fact that we have to pay for the governments cock up both in terms of poor air quality and directly from our pockets to fix a problem they themselves created.

Peugeot make petrol vans so there are alternatives,

[Schmoopy]

Whats changed is that he bought the van not knowing that had he should have stretched to a 1 year newer. He buys and fully owns his van and keeps them until they are no longer economical to run anymore. Typical builders van, well maintained mechanically as he needs it to work. He goes onto the north circular enough to know that he will need to change his van to a 16 plate when it comes in. His van will be worth less then last week as people are now aware making the gap between the 16 plate and his bigger, although there is a market outside london there are now x more 15 plate vans for sale around the south east and X fewer people who can take them on.

[C70R]

gavsdavs said:

C70R said:

The ULEZ is only actually limited to the VERY centre of London - the bit with all the congestion, which is generally painful to drive in.

Edited by C70R on Wednesday 12th December 10:58

Not quite true - here's a map:

The CCZ is the very centre of london. The ULEZ is the south to north circulars. That's a much bigger area and catches a (by comparison) massively larger number of residents.

That's exactly the bit I was referring to. It's a small % of the overall M25 area, but the emissions here impact the majority of the 8.8m Londoners.

[C70R]

bad company said:

C70R said:

bad company said:

C70R said:

What does bitterness have to do with improving air quality? The answer, absolutely nothing. Therefore, what's the purpose of being consumed by anger at something which has ultimately good intentions?

If you absolutely must have a diesel (for reasons that I'm not clear on), then you have your pick of almost anything produced since 2016. Not really the same as having "no viable alternative", is it? Please drop the melodrama - it doesn't help discussion.

It's pretty simple. If you live in, or make your living in London, you have a duty to the 8.8m people who live here and breath the air. Everything else is irrelevant.

What about the poor sods who bought diesels a few years ago thinking they were doing the right thing?

They can swap them for any petrol car produced since 2004. You're still being melodramatic.

And what value will there be in the diesels they have to sell? I'm not being melodramatic, this is very wrong.

To people outside of London? Roughly the same as it was before the ULEZ proposal. HTH.

[C70R]

Schmoopy said:

My local garage have a recovery truck they use for occasional recoveries, its pre 2004 but meets all the low emissions zone criteria. It does 5000 miles or less, but is obviously useful to have and saves customers money. To change that to a 2016 or newer would cost the best part of £20,000.

The local builder who bought a 2015 transit van a few months ago , has now seen their van devalued by thousands and again they will need to find a lot more money to replace the perfectly good van they've just bought.

Now I'm a good few miles away from the ultra low emissions zone, I'm not even in greater london. Yet it will affect them.

I am also an environmentalist, so believe me i agree that something needs to be done. But it needs to make sense, and this doesn't.

You keep talking about this idea that vans are being "devalued by thousands", but that's only relevant if that buyer wants to drive into London. I just don't buy your melodramatic schtick.

[C70R]

bad company said:

Seriously guys, sign the petition. It's all most of us can do:-

https://www.change.org/p/sadiq-khan-stop-mayor-kha...

Anyone living in London area it's probably also worth a letter to their MP.

Political activism in London, coming to you live from Bury St Edmunds everybody.

[DonkeyApple]

Schmoopy said:

Whats changed is that he bought the van not knowing that had he should have stretched to a 1 year newer. He buys and fully owns his van and keeps them until they are no longer economical to run anymore. Typical builders van, well maintained mechanically as he needs it to work. He goes onto the north circular enough to know that he will need to change his van to a 16 plate when it comes in. His van will be worth less then last week as people are now aware making the gap between the 16 plate and his bigger, although there is a market outside london there are now x more 15 plate vans for sale around the south east and X fewer people who can take them on.

He only bought it a few months ago so obviously ran the maths and worked out it was cheaper to take advantage of the discount on a non compliant van than to pay the premium on the compliant one.

He also fully understands that all van driving competitors have exactly the same cost scenario so there’s no competitive advantage or disadvantage. Even those awful Mungoslavians who steal customers by undercutting have to cough up.

He also knows that the end consumer ultimately pays.

Or are you saying that he is some kind of semi functioning fktard who wants everyone else to pay to have his arse wiped? Or just another whinger down the pub who hasn’t bothered to actually work anything out but take the easy route of blaming everyone else?

[Schmoopy]

Defenders are a good example to show the devaluation, those able to go into the low emissions zone are worth more then those that can't. I am not disputing theres a market out there other then London / the south east, but your limiting the number of people hugely by

a) Those willing and able to travel to the south east to buy a car.
b) People who aren't worried about it happening to their local town.

Not to mention the sheer number of cars / vans for sale within the area.

[bad company]

C70R said:

bad company said:

Seriously guys, sign the petition. It's all most of us can do:-

https://www.change.org/p/sadiq-khan-stop-mayor-kha...

Anyone living in London area it's probably also worth a letter to their MP.

Political activism in London, coming to you live from Bury St Edmunds everybody.

Bury St Edmunds, really?

[C70R]

Schmoopy said:

Defenders are a good example to show the devaluation, those able to go into the low emissions zone are worth more then those that can't. I am not disputing theres a market out there other then London / the south east, but your limiting the number of people hugely by

Are you aware of the tiny % of the total UK landmass which the ULEZ actually makes up?
Do you really think that is going to have a noticeable impact on the value of a car sold anywhere other than in Greater London?

Stop being so hysterical. It's not helping debate.

[Schmoopy]

DonkeyApple said:

He only bought it a few months ago so obviously ran the maths and worked out it was cheaper to take advantage of the discount on a non compliant van than to pay the premium on the compliant one.

He also fully understands that all van driving competitors have exactly the same cost scenario so there’s no competitive advantage or disadvantage. Even those awful Mungoslavians who steal customers by undercutting have to cough up.

He also knows that the end consumer ultimately pays.

Or are you saying that he is some kind of semi functioning fktard who wants everyone else to pay to have his arse wiped? Or just another whinger down the pub who hasn’t bothered to actually work anything out but take the easy route of blaming everyone else?

He didn't get a discount of a non compliant van as most people weren't aware of it a few months ago, so the van prices were strong. He didn't know about the extension of the ultra low emissions zone, he knew it was low emission zone compliant and thought it was fairly future proof given its age. Bar those involved in the extension consultation information has been a bit sketchy and you have to physically look for it - but you would need to know to look for it.