ULEZ charge in 2021
Discussion
Interesting weekend. Started off Friday night with my mates being knocked off bicycle by some twunt in a E Class. He was in the bike box, and the merc was stopped behind him, but for whatever reason the merc decided to set off with the lights still red.
Then I drove to Heathrow. Oh sweet lord, the traffic. Then on Saturday I drove the M40. Know I know why the London trolls are so sad. I'll very much take London City commutes over any of that.
Then I drove to Heathrow. Oh sweet lord, the traffic. Then on Saturday I drove the M40. Know I know why the London trolls are so sad. I'll very much take London City commutes over any of that.
NomduJour said:
Conversely, I regularly drive in Zone 1 at the weekend (even if I don’t actually cover a great distance) - tube/bus/rail would be hugely inconvenient by comparison, and cabs cost a lot and still don’t offer anything like the same convenience.
Where are you driving in Z1 which wouldn't be quicker/easier by public transport? And how can Uber, who can drive in places you can't (bus lanes etc.), be less convenient?The only argument I could see would be if you were doing multiple drop-offs with lots of heavy/bulky items. And who the heck is doing that on a weekend in London?
cb1965 said:
C70R said:
bristolracer said:
If the powers that be want us out of cars,they have to provide alternatives that people can realistically use.
Probably the stupidest thing written in this thread. Car ownership in London is already minuscule (<30%) because the available alternatives work so well.
Also car ownership is low compared to other parts of the country not just because people don't want one, but because they cannot afford one when they factor in their living costs and the cost of car ownership in London being much higher than elsewhere.
I've got a client meeting later this morning. I'll use the tube for that too. I could expense a taxi but can't see the point as it'll cost more and take longer.
I might have to to to the head office later this week. That's 5 stops the other way on the Overland train. I could drive if I wanted but I don't bother. The train is quicker, especially in the evening rush hour.
cb1965 said:
C70R said:
cb1965 said:
C70R said:
They do a great job of moving several million people every day (in spite of their obvious limitations.
Leaving aside you being utterly in love with London and all who sail in her they really don't, you like so many others are just accepting mediocre as being acceptable which is why we are heading backwards in terms of real progress. You will no doubt post otherwise, but this isn't limited to London (although it's worse than most) so save another round of the C70R pro London rhetoric for someone who gives a s
t what you think!Edited by C70R on Sunday 16th December 19:31
AC43 said:
cb1965 said:
C70R said:
bristolracer said:
If the powers that be want us out of cars,they have to provide alternatives that people can realistically use.
Probably the stupidest thing written in this thread. Car ownership in London is already minuscule (<30%) because the available alternatives work so well.
Also car ownership is low compared to other parts of the country not just because people don't want one, but because they cannot afford one when they factor in their living costs and the cost of car ownership in London being much higher than elsewhere.
I've got a client meeting later this morning. I'll use the tube for that too. I could expense a taxi but can't see the point as it'll cost more and take longer.
I might have to to to the head office later this week. That's 5 stops the other way on the Overland train. I could drive if I wanted but I don't bother. The train is quicker, especially in the evening rush hour.
For balance, my "awful experience" this morning was travelling 7 miles South-North through the heart of London at peak time, changing twice. I got a seat on every leg, the longest I waited for a train was 2min, and my total journey time (including 10min of walking) was ~45min.
How "awful".
AC43 said:
I came into the City on the tube this morning and it was just fine. Easy quick & stress free with a podcast to keep me amused. 50 minutes door to door with the added bonus of 4,000 steps thrown in for free.
I've got a client meeting later this morning. I'll use the tube for that too. I could expense a taxi but can't see the point as it'll cost more and take longer.
I might have to to to the head office later this week. That's 5 stops the other way on the Overland train. I could drive if I wanted but I don't bother. The train is quicker, especially in the evening rush hour.
A scooter/motorbike would've quicker still.I've got a client meeting later this morning. I'll use the tube for that too. I could expense a taxi but can't see the point as it'll cost more and take longer.
I might have to to to the head office later this week. That's 5 stops the other way on the Overland train. I could drive if I wanted but I don't bother. The train is quicker, especially in the evening rush hour.
The ability of some people to bang on about how "good" London public transport is, never ceases to amaze. Where is this magical land of denial ? Public transport in London is st. It is continually late, delayed, overcrowded, cancelled, non air conditioned, and quite frankly dangerous. Trains are also bloody expensive in my view, this is the real reason everybody drives. Cut the damn fares and increase capacity and maybe you have an alternative. Currently you do not.
t. It is continually late, delayed, overcrowded, cancelled, non air conditioned, and quite frankly dangerous. Trains are also bloody expensive in my view, this is the real reason everybody drives. Cut the damn fares and increase capacity and maybe you have an alternative. Currently you do not.DonkeyApple said:
1 You always dismiss any data or science that doesn’t support your quite extreme stances on subjects. But this particular bit of science is just too easy to understand for someone to logically attempt to dismiss. It’s just fact. When you exercise your alveoli open wider and you draw greater volumes of air into the lungs and deeper.
2 again, you are ignoring the science that does not fit your agenda. Plus, you have the very simplistic view that because something is better today there is no need to carry on trying to make it better tomorrow.
3 Yes. Vehicles are cleaner. Not hugely relevant if there are more of them and doing more short journeys. But you know this as you argue thisnon other threads where the different view supports that different argument.
4 EVs are coming. Thanks to govt legislation and taxation incentives. uLEZ being part of that.
5 stepping back in time and reversing Sunday hours or banging on about litter, along with forcing workers back into bicycles are just all a bit ‘old man ukippy’ to be honest. In previous posts you keenly point to Europe while totally ignoring the topography, geography, population density and demographic, wealth, urban layout or meteorology differences between cities but instead just blankly day we should just be like that city and those people. The world doesn’t work like that. Each city is an individual entity and requires bespoke solutions that move it forward.
6 Feel free to not accept another bit of proven science that you had never understood or heard of but would allow you to shape your view more realistically and to understand the actual relevance of issues being discussed. That is a shocking head in the sand type of thinking and frankly it all adds up to strongly suggest to me that you are not actually interesting in an open discussion but rather just have a fixed view and will randomly argue with ever weirder responses against anything that doesn’t agree, regardless of fact.
1. Show the date showing that people who do exercise suffer as result (beyond falls and injuries etc) or that overall, people who exercise outdoors suffer materially compared to those exercising indoors. I don't think any such data exists. All I've ever encountered is that overall, people who exercise live considerably longer than people who don't. Do they lose days of their life due to what they've ingested, on the years they've gained by exercising? I'm 60 years old and I've never heard of people who exercise suffering materially overall by doing so, all I've ever heard and experienced is the complete opposite.2 again, you are ignoring the science that does not fit your agenda. Plus, you have the very simplistic view that because something is better today there is no need to carry on trying to make it better tomorrow.
3 Yes. Vehicles are cleaner. Not hugely relevant if there are more of them and doing more short journeys. But you know this as you argue thisnon other threads where the different view supports that different argument.
4 EVs are coming. Thanks to govt legislation and taxation incentives. uLEZ being part of that.
5 stepping back in time and reversing Sunday hours or banging on about litter, along with forcing workers back into bicycles are just all a bit ‘old man ukippy’ to be honest. In previous posts you keenly point to Europe while totally ignoring the topography, geography, population density and demographic, wealth, urban layout or meteorology differences between cities but instead just blankly day we should just be like that city and those people. The world doesn’t work like that. Each city is an individual entity and requires bespoke solutions that move it forward.
6 Feel free to not accept another bit of proven science that you had never understood or heard of but would allow you to shape your view more realistically and to understand the actual relevance of issues being discussed. That is a shocking head in the sand type of thinking and frankly it all adds up to strongly suggest to me that you are not actually interesting in an open discussion but rather just have a fixed view and will randomly argue with ever weirder responses against anything that doesn’t agree, regardless of fact.
2. Eh? I've said all along that it is going to be better, significantly better, without politicians interfering who have a track record of making things worse. WLTP came in this year, electric vehicles are coming, it is going to be much better tomorrow already as it is.
3. Sorry, I'm going to have to say again: Eh?
4. Hmm. Not sure about the UK govt, who have just withdrawn tax incentives.
5. Step back in time? It happened yesterday, all over Europe (unless possibly there was a leeway for Xmas) and will be happening every Sunday next year and for decades to come. It's a current and future practice not old, and I don't know what's ukippy about following Europe (or perhaps I should say, choosing to be different from Europe especially when doing so seems to cause us problems.
Taking the view "forcing workers back into bicycles" sounds very uniquely British to me. "topography, geography, population density and demographic, wealth, urban layout or meteorology differences between cities" - Germany is very similar to us imo in all those regards, and they have a far higher rate of using a far greener method of exercising that lets them exercise at the same time, and is also brilliant for those short journeys you mentioned. I don't have figures to hand, but I'm told Germans are getting into electric bikes big time.
6. What a load of nonsense. Why lower the tone in this way and hurl insults? How about about we just debate this calmly? I'm not aware of having an "agenda" beyond what's right and fair. I don't agree at all that we're having a major health crisis caused by air quality in the UK, but a) I'm happy to talk about it and b) probably would agree with you were the future not looking so good in this regard. If there are any major health crises about it's far more likely to be regarding obesity, or whether the NHS is getting it right, and so on. Our cancer treatment record is not great and I believe lags well behind other countries in this quarter of the globe.
Who knows, maybe the air quality issue is something of a "smoke screen" for a lot worse going on. Plus it lets them tax us more. The Birmingham scheme appears to be all about selling more cars.
C70R said:
Where are you driving in Z1 which wouldn't be quicker/easier by public transport? And how can Uber, who can drive in places you can't (bus lanes etc.), be less convenient?
The only argument I could see would be if you were doing multiple drop-offs with lots of heavy/bulky items. And who the heck is doing that on a weekend in London?
Perhaps you could just accept that not everyone shares your view? My own car vs the No.11 bus on a wet winter weekend isn’t really a tough choice for me. The only argument I could see would be if you were doing multiple drop-offs with lots of heavy/bulky items. And who the heck is doing that on a weekend in London?
I like using my own car, I like going exactly where I want to exactly when I want to, I don’t like the hassle and expense of booking/hailing/paying for cabs (although I will obviously do so when going out for the evening is involved).
More than any of that - I like cars, I like my cars and I like driving my cars, and, as far as I’m aware, the communists haven’t yet won so I’ll continue to do so for as long as I possibly can.
NomduJour said:
C70R said:
Where are you driving in Z1 which wouldn't be quicker/easier by public transport? And how can Uber, who can drive in places you can't (bus lanes etc.), be less convenient?
The only argument I could see would be if you were doing multiple drop-offs with lots of heavy/bulky items. And who the heck is doing that on a weekend in London?
Perhaps you could just accept that not everyone shares your view? My own car vs the No.11 bus on a wet winter weekend isn’t really a tough choice for me. The only argument I could see would be if you were doing multiple drop-offs with lots of heavy/bulky items. And who the heck is doing that on a weekend in London?
I like using my own car, I like going exactly where I want to exactly when I want to, I don’t like the hassle and expense of booking/hailing/paying for cabs (although I will obviously do so when going out for the evening is involved).
More than any of that - I like cars, I like my cars and I like driving my cars, and, as far as I’m aware, the communists haven’t yet won so I’ll continue to do so for as long as I possibly can.
Your answer is basically what I expected. And a synopsis is: "Well, it's not actually quicker or easier, that was a lie. But I prefer it."
That's an absolutely fine defence and beyond reproach, and nobody (not even "the communists") is stopping you from doing that, even if your car doesn't comply with the ULEZ standards. You'll just pay to pollute if that's your choice.
ZX10R NIN said:
AC43 said:
I came into the City on the tube this morning and it was just fine. Easy quick & stress free with a podcast to keep me amused. 50 minutes door to door with the added bonus of 4,000 steps thrown in for free.
I've got a client meeting later this morning. I'll use the tube for that too. I could expense a taxi but can't see the point as it'll cost more and take longer.
I might have to to to the head office later this week. That's 5 stops the other way on the Overland train. I could drive if I wanted but I don't bother. The train is quicker, especially in the evening rush hour.
A scooter/motorbike would've quicker still.I've got a client meeting later this morning. I'll use the tube for that too. I could expense a taxi but can't see the point as it'll cost more and take longer.
I might have to to to the head office later this week. That's 5 stops the other way on the Overland train. I could drive if I wanted but I don't bother. The train is quicker, especially in the evening rush hour.
Sod riding in the rain, though...
Schmed said:
The ability of some people to bang on about how "good" London public transport is, never ceases to amaze. Where is this magical land of denial ? Public transport in London is st. It is continually late, delayed, overcrowded, cancelled, non air conditioned, and quite frankly dangerous. Trains are also bloody expensive in my view, this is the real reason everybody drives. Cut the damn fares and increase capacity and maybe you have an alternative. Currently you do not.
I live in Forest Gate (East London for non-Londoners) and fall just inside the ULEZ. At least once a week my TFL train is outright cancelled, it's also delayed more often than not, and any kind of public transport going anywhere but into town is abysmal. The network also doesn't support travelling away from the centre of London, our public transport is built solely around the concept of funnelling commuters from the suburbs into the centre.t. It is continually late, delayed, overcrowded, cancelled, non air conditioned, and quite frankly dangerous. Trains are also bloody expensive in my view, this is the real reason everybody drives. Cut the damn fares and increase capacity and maybe you have an alternative. Currently you do not.Schmed said:
The ability of some people to bang on about how "good" London public transport is, never ceases to amaze. Where is this magical land of denial ? Public transport in London is st. It is continually late, delayed, overcrowded, cancelled, non air conditioned, and quite frankly dangerous. Trains are also bloody expensive in my view, this is the real reason everybody drives. Cut the damn fares and increase capacity and maybe you have an alternative. Currently you do not.
It sounds like you’re talking more about the overland service from the regions rather than the actual transport system in London though? t. It is continually late, delayed, overcrowded, cancelled, non air conditioned, and quite frankly dangerous. Trains are also bloody expensive in my view, this is the real reason everybody drives. Cut the damn fares and increase capacity and maybe you have an alternative. Currently you do not.Got a nice letter from TFL just now.
Basically saying that me and my car can bog off
I wonder how many people are going to receive these and be totally flummoxed.
Inner zone starts this April folks. Looking at my commute on my compliant but always wanted by the thieves motorbike, there is going to be a lot of frantic selling and buying over the winter months.
Never a good time to sell.
Basically saying that me and my car can bog off
I wonder how many people are going to receive these and be totally flummoxed.
Inner zone starts this April folks. Looking at my commute on my compliant but always wanted by the thieves motorbike, there is going to be a lot of frantic selling and buying over the winter months.
Never a good time to sell.
Schmed said:
The ability of some people to bang on about how "good" London public transport is, never ceases to amaze. Where is this magical land of denial ? Public transport in London is st. It is continually late, delayed, overcrowded, cancelled, non air conditioned, and quite frankly dangerous. Trains are also bloody expensive in my view, this is the real reason everybody drives. Cut the damn fares and increase capacity and maybe you have an alternative. Currently you do not.
Hyperbolic, much?t. It is continually late, delayed, overcrowded, cancelled, non air conditioned, and quite frankly dangerous. Trains are also bloody expensive in my view, this is the real reason everybody drives. Cut the damn fares and increase capacity and maybe you have an alternative. Currently you do not."Continually late/cancelled/delayed": My commute is 2 changes right through Z1, and it's rare than I have more than +/-5min variance.
"Overcrowded": Show me a major world city where public transport isn't overcrowded.
"Non air conditioned": Some lines are, but it's not a big deal aside from a couple of weeks in summer.
"Dangerous": I can only imagine that you were running out of things to moan about, but I'm keen to know what's so dangerous compared with other public transport systems.
"Bloody expensive": Relative to other big cities, London really isn't that expensive.
I've travelled in a lot of cities with extensive public transport networks, and none are without their issues. Keen to see what your benchmark of "good" for the above are, if you rate London as "sh*t".
If you're talking about suburban commuter trains, then you might have a point. But that's not London transport, and this is a thread about central London and the people who live there.
j_4m said:
The network also doesn't support travelling away from the centre of London, our public transport is built solely around the concept of funnelling commuters from the suburbs into the centre.
Of course it is!Why on earth would TfL focus their time/energy/money on a usage which doesn't account for >95% of journeys?
C70R said:
Of course it is!
Why on earth would TfL focus their time/energy/money on a usage which doesn't account for >95% of journeys?
The clue is in the name, 'Transport For London' and not 'Transport Solely For The Profit Of Shareholders'. The rail network is more and more just serving people who want to work here, not people who want to live here, which wouldn't be that much of a problem if we could use our cars without punitive congestion/parking/whatever charges that are clear attempts to stop people driving.Why on earth would TfL focus their time/energy/money on a usage which doesn't account for >95% of journeys?
j_4m said:
The clue is in the name, 'Transport For London' and not 'Transport Solely For The Profit Of Shareholders'. The rail network is more and more just serving people who want to work here, not people who want to live here, which wouldn't be that much of a problem if we could use our cars without punitive congestion/parking/whatever charges that are clear attempts to stop people driving.
I think you fill find that people that live in London are very happy that Transport for London are making clear attempts for people to stop driving in London. Why shouldn't they be?j_4m said:
C70R said:
Of course it is!
Why on earth would TfL focus their time/energy/money on a usage which doesn't account for >95% of journeys?
The clue is in the name, 'Transport For London' and not 'Transport Solely For The Profit Of Shareholders'. The rail network is more and more just serving people who want to work here, not people who want to live here, which wouldn't be that much of a problem if we could use our cars without punitive congestion/parking/whatever charges that are clear attempts to stop people driving.Why on earth would TfL focus their time/energy/money on a usage which doesn't account for >95% of journeys?
Must be TfL's fault.
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