Toshiba battery 6 minute charge 200 mile range soon...
Discussion
CrutyRammers said:
I believe that my petrolhead credentials are in order. I've built and restored cars, there's a classic in the garage right now in pieces. I love the sound and fury of an historic racer, spitting out fuel on the overrun. I love manual gear shifts. I love the sound and the smell and the oil.
BUT
You have to ask yourself that if you were to design a vehicle from a clean sheet of paper in a perfect world, would it really have a gearbox, or a clutch? Mechanical pumps driven by belts? Carry around gallons of fluids - including 15 gallons of highly flammable stuff? With 20 or 30 kilos of piping and silencing boxes on it?
All the things I love about ICE are really hacks and workarounds to make the things usable. Objectively, an electric car is a better solution, just as an ICE car is better than a steam car.
Frankly, modern petrol cars are so insulated and sanitised anyway, that moving to electric will barely be noticeable.
Nail on head. Good post which should be framed on page 1 of all EV v ICE threadsBUT
You have to ask yourself that if you were to design a vehicle from a clean sheet of paper in a perfect world, would it really have a gearbox, or a clutch? Mechanical pumps driven by belts? Carry around gallons of fluids - including 15 gallons of highly flammable stuff? With 20 or 30 kilos of piping and silencing boxes on it?
All the things I love about ICE are really hacks and workarounds to make the things usable. Objectively, an electric car is a better solution, just as an ICE car is better than a steam car.
Frankly, modern petrol cars are so insulated and sanitised anyway, that moving to electric will barely be noticeable.
Akirk said:
Stuff.
It's not just that the nations power stations can't meet our forecast demands without banning petrol and diesel (only?) cars. That's just half the problem, if we built enough power generation, there's still the issue of distribution, the grid itself would need some quite serious upgrades.As would every consumer unit - unless the owner is happy with overnight charging.
Oh wait, the Blair govt. stopped councils from approving developements with a parking space (or more) per domicile. Can't charge it if you can't park by your charger...
CrutyRammers said:
I believe that my petrolhead credentials are in order. I've built and restored cars, there's a classic in the garage right now in pieces. I love the sound and fury of an historic racer, spitting out fuel on the overrun. I love manual gear shifts. I love the sound and the smell and the oil.
BUT
You have to ask yourself that if you were to design a vehicle from a clean sheet of paper in a perfect world, would it really have a gearbox, or a clutch? Mechanical pumps driven by belts? Carry around gallons of fluids - including 15 gallons of highly flammable stuff? With 20 or 30 kilos of piping and silencing boxes on it?
All the things I love about ICE are really hacks and workarounds to make the things usable. Objectively, an electric car is a better solution, just as an ICE car is better than a steam car.
Frankly, modern petrol cars are so insulated and sanitised anyway, that moving to electric will barely be noticeable.
Well said!BUT
You have to ask yourself that if you were to design a vehicle from a clean sheet of paper in a perfect world, would it really have a gearbox, or a clutch? Mechanical pumps driven by belts? Carry around gallons of fluids - including 15 gallons of highly flammable stuff? With 20 or 30 kilos of piping and silencing boxes on it?
All the things I love about ICE are really hacks and workarounds to make the things usable. Objectively, an electric car is a better solution, just as an ICE car is better than a steam car.
Frankly, modern petrol cars are so insulated and sanitised anyway, that moving to electric will barely be noticeable.
Stu08 said:
I have driven PHEV in electric mode only and a Nissan Leaf - didn't enjoy it.
I think this is an important point^^^ You didn't "enjoy" driving a PHEV and a Leaf. Fair enough. But, would you actually enjoy driving say the ICE version of the PHEV, or say a Nissan Micra ?
A Nissan Leaf isn't a very fun car to drive, but, and this is important, neither is a Nissan Micra. I wouldn't expect someone driving an Elise to find a Leaf very exciting or fun to drive, but that is, largely irrelevant.
The UK's best selling PHEV is the Mitsubishi Outlander. A decent enough car, but not really a fun or inspiring drive, in either pure diesel or PHEV form.
Right now, there is no real electric replacement for our fun cars, our Elises, our 911's, etc, but, there will be and while we wait for those, the 28 million odd boring commuter cars, like all those Micras and Outlanders, can move to being 'lecy powered without any issue!
Max_Torque said:
Stu08 said:
I have driven PHEV in electric mode only and a Nissan Leaf - didn't enjoy it.
I think this is an important point^^^ You didn't "enjoy" driving a PHEV and a Leaf. Fair enough. But, would you actually enjoy driving say the ICE version of the PHEV, or say a Nissan Micra ?
A Nissan Leaf isn't a very fun car to drive, but, and this is important, neither is a Nissan Micra. I wouldn't expect someone driving an Elise to find a Leaf very exciting or fun to drive, but that is, largely irrelevant.
The UK's best selling PHEV is the Mitsubishi Outlander. A decent enough car, but not really a fun or inspiring drive, in either pure diesel or PHEV form.
Right now, there is no real electric replacement for our fun cars, our Elises, our 911's, etc, but, there will be and while we wait for those, the 28 million odd boring commuter cars, like all those Micras and Outlanders, can move to being 'lecy powered without any issue!
Pesty said:
Can't see this in here yet,
Looks very promising
TNO anodes are claimed to double the energy capacity of Toshiba’s current offerings. Initial testing has revealed the new cells maintain “over 90 percent” of their capacity after 5000 cycles with the ability to be rapidly charged, even in cooler temperatures as cool as 14 degrees Fahrenheit (where the charge time increases slightly, to 10 minutes). Perhaps most important is that Toshiba promises that these lithium-ion cells with the TNO anode will be available in 2019.
https://blog.caranddriver.com/toshiba-on-the-cusp-...
When I see it, that's when I'll believe it.Looks very promising
TNO anodes are claimed to double the energy capacity of Toshiba’s current offerings. Initial testing has revealed the new cells maintain “over 90 percent” of their capacity after 5000 cycles with the ability to be rapidly charged, even in cooler temperatures as cool as 14 degrees Fahrenheit (where the charge time increases slightly, to 10 minutes). Perhaps most important is that Toshiba promises that these lithium-ion cells with the TNO anode will be available in 2019.
https://blog.caranddriver.com/toshiba-on-the-cusp-...
PositronicRay said:
Max_Torque said:
Stu08 said:
I have driven PHEV in electric mode only and a Nissan Leaf - didn't enjoy it.
I think this is an important point^^^ You didn't "enjoy" driving a PHEV and a Leaf. Fair enough. But, would you actually enjoy driving say the ICE version of the PHEV, or say a Nissan Micra ?
A Nissan Leaf isn't a very fun car to drive, but, and this is important, neither is a Nissan Micra. I wouldn't expect someone driving an Elise to find a Leaf very exciting or fun to drive, but that is, largely irrelevant.
The UK's best selling PHEV is the Mitsubishi Outlander. A decent enough car, but not really a fun or inspiring drive, in either pure diesel or PHEV form.
Right now, there is no real electric replacement for our fun cars, our Elises, our 911's, etc, but, there will be and while we wait for those, the 28 million odd boring commuter cars, like all those Micras and Outlanders, can move to being 'lecy powered without any issue!
Max_Torque said:
I think this is an important point^^^
You didn't "enjoy" driving a PHEV and a Leaf. Fair enough. But, would you actually enjoy driving say the ICE version of the PHEV, or say a Nissan Micra ?
A Nissan Leaf isn't a very fun car to drive, but, and this is important, neither is a Nissan Micra. I wouldn't expect someone driving an Elise to find a Leaf very exciting or fun to drive, but that is, largely irrelevant.
The UK's best selling PHEV is the Mitsubishi Outlander. A decent enough car, but not really a fun or inspiring drive, in either pure diesel or PHEV form.
Right now, there is no real electric replacement for our fun cars, our Elises, our 911's, etc, but, there will be and while we wait for those, the 28 million odd boring commuter cars, like all those Micras and Outlanders, can move to being 'lecy powered without any issue!
Funnily enough my wife had a 2004 Micra 1.2 petrol. Whilst it wasn't fast there was something fun about taking it to the limiter as it did rev relatively freely. Again it's only my opinion - but the mechanical experience of hearing the engine revs increase (even on a little 1.2) and quickly changing gear on the pretty short throw and notchy gearbox was fun. Even though it took 13 seconds to get to 60 MPH - it just got under my skin. That's what the EV will always miss to me; unless they can find a way to replicate that.You didn't "enjoy" driving a PHEV and a Leaf. Fair enough. But, would you actually enjoy driving say the ICE version of the PHEV, or say a Nissan Micra ?
A Nissan Leaf isn't a very fun car to drive, but, and this is important, neither is a Nissan Micra. I wouldn't expect someone driving an Elise to find a Leaf very exciting or fun to drive, but that is, largely irrelevant.
The UK's best selling PHEV is the Mitsubishi Outlander. A decent enough car, but not really a fun or inspiring drive, in either pure diesel or PHEV form.
Right now, there is no real electric replacement for our fun cars, our Elises, our 911's, etc, but, there will be and while we wait for those, the 28 million odd boring commuter cars, like all those Micras and Outlanders, can move to being 'lecy powered without any issue!
However, I do completely understand that I am in the minority and gearboxes etc. don't make sense with a full EV - and the majority as stated won't really want that; so I can't see it being invested in.
I do completely see you point regarding the mundane daily cars; and that we have yet to see an EV 911 etc. to measure against. But I am not keeping my hopes up for the involvement of the driver in EV's.
Hybrids make more sense to me in that scenario - as you can use electric through towns etc. and then open it up to ICE + battery on the open roads and enjoy the sound, boost / high revs of a petrol engine with a manual gearbox (or even some of the better autos).
However, I also get that hybrids have drawbacks in the manufacturing process due to two power plants etc.
It's funny as I'm a Continuous Improvement Manager whereby I drive and love change to happen on a daily basis at work; and yet I cannot seem to enjoy the thought of EV's even if they are an improvement.
EDIT - I'll get back on topic as there is another thread for this - It would be great if they can reduce charging time for batteries
Edited by Stu08 on Tuesday 24th October 14:55
^^^ but even most "fun" petrol cars now are so quiet, so sanitised, they've lost much of their character. My daily is a Guilietta hatchback, it has a comedy dump valve noise which you can hear with the window open if you drive next to a hedge, but otherwise it's so quiet I'm not sure that I'd miss much if it was electric.
I agree that at least part of the involvement is the noise, I guess I just feel that we've already lost it...
I agree that at least part of the involvement is the noise, I guess I just feel that we've already lost it...
HannsG said:
I saw a Tesla on a charge point today.
I walked past thinking... What's the f
king point?
Gimmick at best. Charging my work phone is a pain in the arse. God knows where you electric driving muppets find the time to wait for a mode of transport to charge up.
200 mile range? Oh yeah baby... Lol. Do you even Venture out of your back yard? Or do you all own a second car fueled by satans fuel for long haul trips?
Anyone heard of Petrol or diesel?????
Oxford Services? It is little more than a pop up car showroom if so.I walked past thinking... What's the f
king point? Gimmick at best. Charging my work phone is a pain in the arse. God knows where you electric driving muppets find the time to wait for a mode of transport to charge up.
200 mile range? Oh yeah baby... Lol. Do you even Venture out of your back yard? Or do you all own a second car fueled by satans fuel for long haul trips?
Anyone heard of Petrol or diesel?????
Edited by HannsG on Monday 23 October 22:38
Mr2Mike said:
Krikkit said:
TheDrBrian said:
Max_Torque said:
TooMany2cvs said:
32kWh in six minutes...
Do the maths.
320kW
415v three-phase, that's 770A.
What sort of cable are you going to be carrying in the boot for that?
320kW is easy.Do the maths.
320kW
415v three-phase, that's 770A.
What sort of cable are you going to be carrying in the boot for that?
I have a 600kW supply i use every day, no problems what so ever.
And who says it needs to be 415V? 680Vac drops that current to under 500A, which is easily for a pair of 70mm2 conductors.
Edited by Mr2Mike on Tuesday 24th October 13:20
Putting 3 x 500 A cables in close proximity with adequate protection will necessitate a much larger cross section per cable, there will be some British Standard to work it out, my guess would be 300mm2 per cable as mentioned above.
GT119 said:
The original calculation by toomany2cvs is wrong, it would be under 500 Amps for 415V 3-phase, i.e. 230V x 3ph x 500 A.
Putting 3 x 500 A cables in close proximity with adequate protection will necessitate a much larger cross section per cable, there will be some British Standard to work it out, my guess would be 300mm2 per cable as mentioned above.
Almost as thick as the hose from a petrol pump.Putting 3 x 500 A cables in close proximity with adequate protection will necessitate a much larger cross section per cable, there will be some British Standard to work it out, my guess would be 300mm2 per cable as mentioned above.
babatunde said:
wack said:
I have no interest in electric cars until I'm forced into one because we all know 95% of us will be in a leaf or some other POS so the days of the enthusiast will be over but my technical question is , will the national grid be able to handle the amount of cars that are likely to be charged every day once it takes off and with very few new power stations being built how will we generate the electricity required.
Surely only nuclear can provide that kind of sustained power, sorry I'm late it wasn't windy so I couldn't charge my car up will be the new excuse
If I could be bothered I would put together a debunk special about all the common fallacies regarding EVs, in fact I'm sure a google would discover that someone already has.... However there is no debating pure ignorance so I won't. Surely only nuclear can provide that kind of sustained power, sorry I'm late it wasn't windy so I couldn't charge my car up will be the new excuse
I seriously doubt the government will build the infrastructure required before they start introducing daily charges for petrol and diesel vehicles in more cities thus starting the decline, then how will they generate the huge revenue derived from fuel sales at 80% tax, you think it'll be £2 a day to charge a car up , think on, they'll want that money from somewhere
The only difference with electric is nobody will be running one cheap at 10-15 years old as the batteries will be knackered so all those people on minimum wage will be priced out of driving.
Max_Torque said:
Wuzzle said:
Max_Torque said:
320kW is easy.
I have a 600kW supply i use every day, no problems what so ever
And how much would it cost everybody to have one of these installed at home?I have a 600kW supply i use every day, no problems what so ever
at home?
No? Then why would you need an EV fast charger at home??
7kw Schneider home EV charger on Ebay currently.
£3,500!
And that is just for the box of stuff.
Jonny_ said:
770A would be the current draw for 415v single phase, for 3 phase it'd be 445A.
Aha. Thank you for that. I didn't quite pass A-level physics, and while I've done plenty of mucking about with 230v, I've never gone bigger, because I quite like not smouldering gently to myself.Jonny_ said:
That's assuming power factor of 1; in reality it'll be more like 0.9 which brings the current draw up to 495A. Then there's the inherent inefficiency of the charger and the charging process of the battery, so to deliver that 32kWh charge in 6 minutes we're probably looking at something in the region of (lick finger and stick it in the air) 520ish amps.
Still a lot of amps!
Yup.Still a lot of amps!
Jonny_ said:
Impressive technology though. Even if production version charging rates are throttled to a third of that, it's a big leap - and still a serious problem for the electricity distribution network if these high power chargers become commonplace.
...and THAT is the showstopper that the EV zealots miss. The grid simply would not cope.I've done a round trip of about 370 miles today. There's nowhere to plug an EV in at the destination, and the car wasn't stationary for more than about an hour all day, anyway. It was done in a 20yo car that cost me £250 18mo/20k ago, and used just over 30 litres of fuel for the trip, with most of the motorway miles at mildly illegal cruise altitude, and the trips out-and-about from the destination were mostly done with the rear seats flat and the boot full to the window line.
Dog Star said:
I wonder what the state of the market for cars with fuel cells would have been if it had been given the investment and positive spin that EVs have been given?
They seem to have fallen from grace, but I can't see why - they seemed the perfect solution to me.
It's been debated many times.They seem to have fallen from grace, but I can't see why - they seemed the perfect solution to me.
Hydrogen is expensive and inefficient energy store (battery), needing 3x the energy of BEV. It leaks through everything and needs to be stored at 10,000 psi. It's also very expensive to build a fuel cell car.
The on!y advantage is it can be refilled quickly. I would still take slow charging a BEV at home.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff