What is happening at EVO magazine?

[cerb4.5lee]

s m said:

I don’t think people pay much real attention to the majority of car journos …. Usually only a select few they prefer ….but even then they can be at odds or disagree with those opinions.

Hardly surprising really as we all like subtly different things in a car - I do enjoy reading them and find they are a useful guide as to which cars I might like to try

Always best to get in a car yourself ( if you can ) to try it……otherwise it’s someone else’s view

Spot on s m, and I have exactly the same view.

[5 In a Row]

cerb4.5lee said:

Also, Chris Harris did nothing but absolutely slate the 370Z, whereas I'm 5 years in with mine and I still love it. So basically all that proves it that we're all individual, and we all like different things. Plus the only way to get to know a car is to live with it. So reading a review of a car, or listening to someones opinion is a waste of time really, because only "you" can make your own mind up about a car I think.

I think most reviews of the 370Z had an air of 'but' about them.
They usually managed to mention the 'coarse' engine that strained past 6k revs but mine was sweet up to the redline (7500rpm).
Maybe a few extra thousand miles were beneficial as I imagine most road test cars are below 5k miles.

[GeniusOfLove]

cerb4.5lee said:

I used to listen to car journos quite a lot years ago, and I'd generally go with their opinions. Although I've changed my mind on that since though.

I'm a big fan of Chris Harris for example, and he absolutely sung the praises of his E92 M3, and that pushed me into wanting/getting one. However I personally thought that it was pretty crap as a daily driver though, because it felt heavy at low speeds, lacked performance at low revs, and it got through fuel at the same rate whether you went fast or slow in it. Plus the brakes were garbage even just on the road for example for me.

Also, Chris Harris did nothing but absolutely slate the 370Z, whereas I'm 5 years in with mine and I still love it. So basically all that proves it that we're all individual, and we all like different things. Plus the only way to get to know a car is to live with it. So reading a review of a car, or listening to someones opinion is a waste of time really, because only "you" can make your own mind up about a car I think.

I've got to the point where I don't believe a word I read from the motoring press. From slating objectively far superior Japanese cars in the 80s and 90s for ridiculous reasons like "boring interior" in comparison to such scintillating cars as the Ford Sierra, to claiming every new Audi A4 has "closed the gap" with the 3 series (it hasn't), to slating cars just for a cheap lazy joke almost everything they write is drivel.

Once they stopped doing the instrumented tests UK magazines became no use for anything, the US motoring press is far more objective.

The same is true for UK Hi-Fi magazines, subjective marketing lead drivel, it's easy to write "I reckon" reviews and takes no real education vs properly instrumented objective testing. Staffed by 3rd rate humanities graduates who wouldn't know where to being in both cases. Once again the US press is vastly superior.

[Stick Legs]

GeniusOfLove said:

cerb4.5lee said:

I used to listen to car journos quite a lot years ago, and I'd generally go with their opinions. Although I've changed my mind on that since though.

I'm a big fan of Chris Harris for example, and he absolutely sung the praises of his E92 M3, and that pushed me into wanting/getting one. However I personally thought that it was pretty crap as a daily driver though, because it felt heavy at low speeds, lacked performance at low revs, and it got through fuel at the same rate whether you went fast or slow in it. Plus the brakes were garbage even just on the road for example for me.

Also, Chris Harris did nothing but absolutely slate the 370Z, whereas I'm 5 years in with mine and I still love it. So basically all that proves it that we're all individual, and we all like different things. Plus the only way to get to know a car is to live with it. So reading a review of a car, or listening to someones opinion is a waste of time really, because only "you" can make your own mind up about a car I think.

I've got to the point where I don't believe a word I read from the motoring press. From slating objectively far superior Japanese cars in the 80s and 90s for ridiculous reasons like "boring interior" in comparison to such scintillating cars as the Ford Sierra, to claiming every new Audi A4 has "closed the gap" with the 3 series (it hasn't), to slating cars just for a cheap lazy joke almost everything they write is drivel.

Once they stopped doing the instrumented tests UK magazines became no use for anything, the US motoring press is far more objective.

The same is true for UK Hi-Fi magazines, subjective marketing lead drivel, it's easy to write "I reckon" reviews and takes no real education vs properly instrumented objective testing. Staffed by 3rd rate humanities graduates who wouldn't know where to being in both cases. Once again the US press is vastly superior.

This very excellent YouTube channel has an episode about the once mighty British music press and how they could literally make or break a band.

TrashTheory said:

https://youtu.be/fV3tg3KeGo0?si=AqJJSC0wPvMD0oqW

[greenarrow]

cerb4.5lee said:

s m said:

I don’t think people pay much real attention to the majority of car journos …. Usually only a select few they prefer ….but even then they can be at odds or disagree with those opinions.

I used to listen to car journos quite a lot years ago, and I'd generally go with their opinions. Although I've changed my mind on that since though.

I'm a big fan of Chris Harris for example, and he absolutely sung the praises of his E92 M3, and that pushed me into wanting/getting one. However I personally thought that it was pretty crap as a daily driver though, because it felt heavy at low speeds, lacked performance at low revs, and it got through fuel at the same rate whether you went fast or slow in it. Plus the brakes were garbage even just on the road for example for me.

Also, Chris Harris did nothing but absolutely slate the 370Z, whereas I'm 5 years in with mine and I still love it. So basically all that proves it that we're all individual, and we all like different things. Plus the only way to get to know a car is to live with it. So reading a review of a car, or listening to someones opinion is a waste of time really, because only "you" can make your own mind up about a car I think.

This is true and you have to remember Chris loves his BMWs because he does a lot of track work and in that environment they sing and can be drifted endlessly. I remember watching Tiff Needell take people out in an E92 M3 at Thruxton when I did my track day. Car was amazing. He basically thrashed the living daylights out of it each day going sideways everywhere and the thing just took it.

On a more bread and butter level, I have been wondering about motoring journos myself. My daughter and I ran a Ford Focus MK1 which we both loved and which is great to drive and obviously deserved all the praise heaped on it. Thing is, I then got her an Astra H, 1.6, a car which received no better than luke warm reviews, 3.5 stars out of 5 at best. However, having driven that car all over the country in the last 6 months I have grown to really love it. Its light, nimble and chuckable, corners flat and can take apart a back road just as well as my Focus did. But the press never reported any of that.....they just continued hating on Vauxhalls...

[CABC]

greenarrow said:

cerb4.5lee said:

s m said:

I don’t think people pay much real attention to the majority of car journos …. Usually only a select few they prefer ….but even then they can be at odds or disagree with those opinions.

I used to listen to car journos quite a lot years ago, and I'd generally go with their opinions. Although I've changed my mind on that since though.

I'm a big fan of Chris Harris for example, and he absolutely sung the praises of his E92 M3, and that pushed me into wanting/getting one. However I personally thought that it was pretty crap as a daily driver though, because it felt heavy at low speeds, lacked performance at low revs, and it got through fuel at the same rate whether you went fast or slow in it. Plus the brakes were garbage even just on the road for example for me.

Also, Chris Harris did nothing but absolutely slate the 370Z, whereas I'm 5 years in with mine and I still love it. So basically all that proves it that we're all individual, and we all like different things. Plus the only way to get to know a car is to live with it. So reading a review of a car, or listening to someones opinion is a waste of time really, because only "you" can make your own mind up about a car I think.

This is true and you have to remember Chris loves his BMWs because he does a lot of track work and in that environment they sing and can be drifted endlessly. I remember watching Tiff Needell take people out in an E92 M3 at Thruxton when I did my track day. Car was amazing. He basically thrashed the living daylights out of it each day going sideways everywhere and the thing just took it.

On a more bread and butter level, I have been wondering about motoring journos myself. My daughter and I ran a Ford Focus MK1 which we both loved and which is great to drive and obviously deserved all the praise heaped on it. Thing is, I then got her an Astra H, 1.6, a car which received no better than luke warm reviews, 3.5 stars out of 5 at best. However, having driven that car all over the country in the last 6 months I have grown to really love it. Its light, nimble and chuckable, corners flat and can take apart a back road just as well as my Focus did. But the press never reported any of that.....they just continued hating on Vauxhalls...

CH also slated the mx5. maybe that was for the controversy, but I still raised a serious eyebrow at that!
he loves BMWs for the reasons you give yet seems oblivious to their weaknesses.
TG turbocharged the whole trope thing from Alfas, Yank tanks and Jaaaags. Now that chat GPT is writing so much it's now wonder these tired cliches are perpetuated. Evo boys aren't TG, but they are possibly guilty of groupthink.

[highway]

Remember, in the early 90’s, the forerunner of Evo- Performance Car, along with the other car magazines, all had the Fiat Tipo Sedicovalvo (something like that) as the best hot hatch you could buy. I’m sure no money changed hands.
No one, ever, talks about that car now. No one is interested.
I swapped out of my mint 205 1.9 for a new Clio Williams 3 in 1995. The Clio was new and cost me more than double the amount I’d paid for the 1 owner 205, which had covered 14k at the time and was 3 years old.
Magazines led me to believe the Clio was a giant step forward for hot hatches. Performance Car ran a cover suggesting it would live with a 512TR on a B Road.
Williams were hard to come by and I wasn’t able to try one before ordering. I thought it was a massive disappointment. Preferred the 205, which was a rare car with ABS and power steering.
Magazines also slated the 993RS when new. All changing their minds down the road.
I have little confidence in their opinions anymore. I also think it was possible to buy good reviews in the past.

[NathanChadwick]

highway said:

Remember, in the early 90’s, the forerunner of Evo- Performance Car, along with the other car magazines, all had the Fiat Tipo Sedicovalvo (something like that) as the best hot hatch you could buy. I’m sure no money changed hands.
No one, ever, talks about that car now. No one is interested.
I swapped out of my mint 205 1.9 for a new Clio Williams 3 in 1995. The Clio was new and cost me more than double the amount I’d paid for the 1 owner 205, which had covered 14k at the time and was 3 years old.
Magazines led me to believe the Clio was a giant step forward for hot hatches. Performance Car ran a cover suggesting it would live with a 512TR on a B Road.
Williams were hard to come by and I wasn’t able to try one before ordering. I thought it was a massive disappointment. Preferred the 205, which was a rare car with ABS and power steering.
Magazines also slated the 993RS when new. All changing their minds down the road.
I have little confidence in their opinions anymore. I also think it was possible to buy good reviews in the past.

I think you’re looking at car journalism through the prism of car journalism now; it’s really only in the past 20 years that hardcore road cars have become acceptable from new, from hot hatches through to supercars - that’s the effect Evo has had, and what makes it special; in the earliest days it carried on where PC left off. However, it soon started to be open to more extreme track biased cars from Ferrari, Porsche, RenaultSport et al.

When you look to the 80s and 90s, cars were judged on their refinement and useability, even in Performance Car and Fast Lane. Look at the type of person buying fast cars then - a somewhat different type of person to now. Remember, front wheel drive was seen as cutting edge and desirable over seemingly antiquated rear wheel drive for anything other than outright performance cars. Cars like the Lotus Elan M100, Alfa GTV and 156, Peugeot 405 Mi16, Nissan Primera eGT all scored better than rear wheel drive equivalents for their handling. Yes, an E36 3 series was deemed not as good as an Alfa 156.
At the time, though track tests happened and there was always an end of year thrash, the important barometer for any car was on road use as track days didn’t really become a thing until the end of the 90s for the majority of people.
Through that prism it’s easy to see why the 993 RS was slagged off - for most people, most of the time, it was simply unusable because most people didn’t do track days, and the review reflected that.
Similarly, the 205 GTI is a car I love but as a liveable experience it’s hardly refined. Again, something like the Clio Williams, which isn’t quite as harsh but light and fun, would review well because it was judged on its overall abilities, and not just its handling. It’s also interesting to note that an EK9 Civic Type R wasn’t looked on favourably by PC, whereas an Alfa 145 QV was. Now I own and love a 145 QV, and I’d certainly put it nowhere near the EK9’s abilities, but the 145 is much more easy to live with.
Unfortunately the 1990s FWD hot hatches before the Clio Williams or 306 GTi6 have been forgotten - the Renault 19 16v, Tipo Sedicivalvole, the Mk5 Escort RS2000 all reviewed well but revisionism, lack of examples on manufacturer heritage fleets and the general leap forward spearheaded by French hot hatches at the end of the 90s (and yes, that includes the Saxo…) means the early hatches have been forgotten. You also have to factor that fashions had changed, small coupes such as the aforementioned GTV, Audi TT, Fiat Coupe, Integra Type R and so on had done much of the same FWD practical performance in a slight flatter body.


I do fail to understand why so many can’t believe the Tipo was actually good - Lampredi twin cam engine (an unturbocharged Integrale engine…), galvanised body (it was actually fairly heavy for the time) and the base Tipo was among the top selling cars of the period. The reason why nobody talks about them anymore is because, in their infinite wisdom, Fiat chose to only import 500 of them.
It isn’t a thrashy Fiat either - stung by criticism of the fun but flaky Strada Abarth, the Tipo had much higher standard of interior. It reviewed well at the time because it was more like the Golf GTI 16v, and that’s probably another reason why it isn’t heralded as even its close neighbour, the Alfa 145 Cloverleaf, which is markedly more sporty (quicker steering rack, higher revving more powerful engine) and thus appealing to mod. Simply, Fiat only imported 500, the Golf had a readymade tuning scene and that means it faded from view, while those wanting an Italian hot hatch went for a 145.

But of course Tipos are terrible because no-one (other than me) has bothered to try one out for a magazine since, ooh, maybe Pistonheads in 2010 or so?

Edited by NathanChadwick on Friday 29th March 14:52

Edited by NathanChadwick on Friday 29th March 14:55

Edited by NathanChadwick on Friday 29th March 14:56

[5 In a Row]

One of the journo things that has always stuck in my mind was the reaction to the Merc A and ML class when they moved on to the Mk2 versions.
At that point the journos told us how much of an improvement they were over the Mk1s which had been quite rubbish.
However, at no point during the Mk1s being current were the readers told they were rubbish.

Gavin Green in CAR was bad for it as he wrote a column saying how crap his privately owned Merc C Class had been but only after he handed it back at the end of the 3 year lease.

That was still at a time when German cars could do no wrong, ever.

[havoc]

5 In a Row said:

That was still at a time when German cars could do no wrong, ever.

They still can't in many quarters - a lot of people are more forgiving of failures* in their premium exec machinery than they would be of a (cheaper) French/Italian car, or of a ("tinny, cheap") Japanese car.




* Not just German...I mean, how else can you explain the continued existence of JLR?

[epom]

Have a few copies myself

[Gompo]

highway said:

Magazines also slated the 993RS when new. All changing their minds down the road.
I have little confidence in their opinions anymore. I also think it was possible to buy good reviews in the past.

Agree with most of which you've said, although thought it was the considered trope that it was the 964 RS the magazines all slated?

I wonder if SM can help us?

[Techno9000]

5 In a Row said:

One of the journo things that has always stuck in my mind was the reaction to the Merc A and ML class when they moved on to the Mk2 versions.
At that point the journos told us how much of an improvement they were over the Mk1s which had been quite rubbish.
However, at no point during the Mk1s being current were the readers told they were rubbish....

That's certainly a point that can be made against evo journalists. Its only when they do a review on a car long out of production that you'll see them criticise characteristics in a way that never made print during the time they were in production.

Little doubt that they are keeping their real thoughts to themselves on current cars lest they are black balled by the manufacturer.

[greenarrow]

Gompo said:

highway said:

Magazines also slated the 993RS when new. All changing their minds down the road.
I have little confidence in their opinions anymore. I also think it was possible to buy good reviews in the past.

Agree with most of which you've said, although thought it was the considered trope that it was the 964 RS the magazines all slated?

I wonder if SM can help us?

Magazines did not slate the 993 RS when new, it was as you say the 964 RS they didn't like. The track ready ride quality was too much back then, the car literally being about a decade ahead of its time!

[andrew]

Techno9000 said:

Little doubt that they are keeping their real thoughts to themselves on current cars lest they are black balled by the manufacturer.

regional newspapers were the worst for this
their "road tests" read like adverts
sometimes if you re-read the road test, then it was clear that they hadn't actually driven the car at all !

[highway]

The 993 RS definitely got a lukewarm reception when new. As did the 964 version.

[Red 5]

Techno9000 said:

That's certainly a point that can be made against evo journalists. Its only when they do a review on a car long out of production that you'll see them criticise characteristics in a way that never made print during the time they were in production.

Little doubt that they are keeping their real thoughts to themselves on current cars lest they are black balled by the manufacturer.

I’ve learned to listen out for the tiny throw away comments, between otherwise more grand statements.
‘I’d prefer if the seat was a little lower’ = Passing pedestrians can see my knees through the side window!
‘Enthusiastic tugging at the wheel’ = Ruinous UNDERsteer below 4th gear!
‘Traction can be an issue in the wet’ = There is never much traction, even in the dry!
‘Sure footed and secure’ = Nailed down and boring to the point of ZZZzzzzzz!

When you regularly drive a car and understand the ‘characteristics’, you recognise how they are often subtly mentioned.
The things that can dominate and ruin the ownership experience, all delivered in an offhand manner, with a smile.

[s m]

greenarrow said:

Gompo said:

highway said:

Magazines also slated the 993RS when new. All changing their minds down the road.
I have little confidence in their opinions anymore. I also think it was possible to buy good reviews in the past.

Agree with most of which you've said, although thought it was the considered trope that it was the 964 RS the magazines all slated?

I wonder if SM can help us?

Magazines did not slate the 993 RS when new, it was as you say the 964 RS they didn't like. The track ready ride quality was too much back then, the car literally being about a decade ahead of its time!

I must admit, I’m like you greenarrow… only really remember the positivity for the 993RS …. that was in CAR, Performance Car and Autocar though - maybe other mags did the slating? Perhaps a bit like the Golf VR6 thread - most people seem to remember the troublesome long term car that CAR had in 94 ……. rather than the positive early reviews in CAR, Performance Car, Fast Lane and Autocar when it first arrived. Then it often seems the case that a car that is widely accessible to the public is there to be sampled and people can form their own opinion and disregard press reviews….. whereas with a lot of supercar stuff reviewed by EVO there is very little opportunity for Joe Public to sample it and the journo’s opinion is held by many as the definitive reality.

[andrew]

please come back, early car magazine

[s m]

911 ‘special issue’ for a change …..