RE: BMW M135i: PH Fleet
Discussion
Toed64 said:
If you'd like to go quicker and save yourself some money: get a proper job done by Jason at BW Chiptune in Hayes.
The Quaife is a massive improvement over the OE open diff with nannies, but a Wavetrac is better, especially if you want to use a decent rear ARB:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4wY2NoJ6f8
Guess you're using a much stiffer ARB than perhaps you could with a Torsen/Quaife.The Quaife is a massive improvement over the OE open diff with nannies, but a Wavetrac is better, especially if you want to use a decent rear ARB:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4wY2NoJ6f8
Edited by Toed64 on Thursday 2nd November 23:30
Edited by Toed64 on Thursday 2nd November 23:31
If you don't mind me asking, roughly what did your Wavetrac come in at fitted?
A word of caution for some BMW applications - if you're thinking of doing a LSD conversion, don't change the final drive ratio. Modern manual BMW's have the gear ratios preprogrammed to the ECU, so things like cruise control and (less importantly) gear shift indicator won't work if you play with the ratios. In the case of diesels the car will hold back on power too (without going all 'safe mode') as it doesn't recognise it's in a gear.
Back on the core subject of LSD's, I had one fitted to my Saab 9-5 Aero a few years back, and the difference was night & day. More confident/planted in corners, meaning you could carry so much more speed, and wouldn't lift & spin one of the front wheels like it did before (the car had 300bhp). That's front wheel drive tough, as per the previous comment from the Alfa driver & his Q2 conversions. I've driven several cars (& owned one) with RWD & LSD, and everyday driving doesn't use the LSD the way a FWD car does.
Back on the core subject of LSD's, I had one fitted to my Saab 9-5 Aero a few years back, and the difference was night & day. More confident/planted in corners, meaning you could carry so much more speed, and wouldn't lift & spin one of the front wheels like it did before (the car had 300bhp). That's front wheel drive tough, as per the previous comment from the Alfa driver & his Q2 conversions. I've driven several cars (& owned one) with RWD & LSD, and everyday driving doesn't use the LSD the way a FWD car does.
Edited by BFleming on Friday 3rd November 11:07
nickfrog said:
Guys you're both reasonable blokes so it's possible you're both right.
I sit exactly in the middle (on the gear stick probably).
The M135i is better in the wet with the LSD. But I am not sure it's that relevant or at least not in my case living in SE England where the main cause of frustration on the open road is far from being tractive limitations!
On the other hand, in the dry, the traction is surprisingly good with the open diff courtesy of the SS and the soft suspension ; sometimes upgrading the suspension actually removes that traction enhancing softness so suddenly the LSD looks like a good idea.
At Spa on a stock car I was only (slightly) traction limited through the bust stop chicane in second. Short shifting would solve that without much detriment and still allow a 3:00 dead which is astounding for a stock road car / shopping trolley on road tyres.
I'd keep quiet about sitting on the gearstick if I were you............... I sit exactly in the middle (on the gear stick probably).
The M135i is better in the wet with the LSD. But I am not sure it's that relevant or at least not in my case living in SE England where the main cause of frustration on the open road is far from being tractive limitations!
On the other hand, in the dry, the traction is surprisingly good with the open diff courtesy of the SS and the soft suspension ; sometimes upgrading the suspension actually removes that traction enhancing softness so suddenly the LSD looks like a good idea.
At Spa on a stock car I was only (slightly) traction limited through the bust stop chicane in second. Short shifting would solve that without much detriment and still allow a 3:00 dead which is astounding for a stock road car / shopping trolley on road tyres.
Xjays original post simply stated that the lsd was pointless on a road car but didn't really qualify his statement. This is an enthusiasts' site for people who (more often than not?) drive performance cars on the road. Fitting an LSD to a road car WILL improve it. Full stop. It is a simple objective fact. People stating it is pointless because of where and how they drive is far more subjective but this still cannot escape the fact that their car would be, technically and objectively improved if it had an LSD fitted.
Jimbo
You must have missed the post where I said "normal people driving normally".
IE driving to work
Or out for a casual drive to the beach
not blasting round a track.
My own car has 340hp and 625nm. I am having it rebuilt for 400hp
It is front wheel drive.
It's only been recently when I have fitted high end coilovers and semi slick tyres that the need for an LSD has arisen given that I am doing more trackdays in it now. Hence why I'm getting one fitted .
90% of the time it would make no difference for me unless pushing on on the road , or on track.
IE driving to work
Or out for a casual drive to the beach
not blasting round a track.
My own car has 340hp and 625nm. I am having it rebuilt for 400hp
It is front wheel drive.
It's only been recently when I have fitted high end coilovers and semi slick tyres that the need for an LSD has arisen given that I am doing more trackdays in it now. Hence why I'm getting one fitted .
90% of the time it would make no difference for me unless pushing on on the road , or on track.
Scottie - NW said:
Fairly amazing really that it came without a LSD as standard.
Even 20 years ago rwd cars with decent power came with them standard.
AFAIK the move away from adding LSDs to everything that 'needed' them was due to traction control becoming compulsory for safety reasons - this happened around 1996 hence why the E36 328i Sport coming with LSD as standard until the facelift when it was replaced with traction control which most drivers never switched off hence leaving an LSD on would have been redundant for most drivers so money was saved by leaving it off.Even 20 years ago rwd cars with decent power came with them standard.
It does strike me as a little odd that it wasn't at least left available as an optional extra. Saying that, round the same time, 15% LSD was made standard on 6-cyl Z3 models... although received wisdom states 15% wasn't enough and 25% would have been much better.
xjay1337 said:
90% of the time it would make no difference for me unless pushing on on the road
10% of the time is worth it to some, if not yourself, to have the pleasure of an LSD. In a FWD you might not notice as it will just fritter away excess power with wheelspin and understeer.Edited by fido on Friday 3rd November 13:05
There are a lot of people asking why the m135i doesn't have an lsd as standard.
It's a numbers game.
Any slightly niche or lower volume vehicle has to satisfy accounts long before it
Ever makes the production line.
If the numbers don't stack it simply wouldn't be made in the first place.
There are a lot of "powerful" cars these days with open diff (3-400hp...sometimes more)
I think folk are forgetting that probably 80/85% of drivers don't switch DSC fully off
Nor do they exit wet roundabouts routinely with half a turn of opposite lock on.
We are the remaining 10-15% so yes we DO want an lsd in our cars and yes we
Do pop the occasional skid
But understand it's a cost reason these cars don't leave the factory with them as stock.
I find the m135i pretty satisfactory out of the crate.
Learn how it behaves & get to know it (from 3rd upwards the rear brakes "lock" the diff
So some nice "exits" can be had....)
A full lsd is on my wish list but please, no more keyboard warriors yelling
That it must be crap without lsd.
It isn't, it's cracking & good enough for 85% of people 85% of the time.
It's a numbers game.
Any slightly niche or lower volume vehicle has to satisfy accounts long before it
Ever makes the production line.
If the numbers don't stack it simply wouldn't be made in the first place.
There are a lot of "powerful" cars these days with open diff (3-400hp...sometimes more)
I think folk are forgetting that probably 80/85% of drivers don't switch DSC fully off
Nor do they exit wet roundabouts routinely with half a turn of opposite lock on.
We are the remaining 10-15% so yes we DO want an lsd in our cars and yes we
Do pop the occasional skid
But understand it's a cost reason these cars don't leave the factory with them as stock.
I find the m135i pretty satisfactory out of the crate.
Learn how it behaves & get to know it (from 3rd upwards the rear brakes "lock" the diff
So some nice "exits" can be had....)
A full lsd is on my wish list but please, no more keyboard warriors yelling
That it must be crap without lsd.
It isn't, it's cracking & good enough for 85% of people 85% of the time.
BlackFlag said:
Anyone using one of these to haul around a small family (1 kid)? Coming from a mid-size estate. How is space in the rear?
Never been big BMW fan, but the 140/135 is looking like the perfect all-rounder.
I looked at a 1 series (potential company car) and found it very small inside and cramped in the front and rear. I am 6 foot 3 mind but just couldn't get comfortable behind the wheel. Never been big BMW fan, but the 140/135 is looking like the perfect all-rounder.
Surprisingly I tried a 2 series and it actually seemed a lot more spacious inside and appeared to have a bigger boot!
james_gt3rs said:
The average driver will have traction control on though so in normal driving you'd not really feel the difference...
Oh, you do, especially on poor road surfaces or n the wet. The difference you feel is that you can use a lot more power in a given situation without the TC activating and cutting the power. BlackFlag said:
Anyone using one of these to haul around a small family (1 kid)? Coming from a mid-size estate. How is space in the rear?
Never been big BMW fan, but the 140/135 is looking like the perfect all-rounder.
I posted these photos when I had mine: http://www.babybmw.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=69366Never been big BMW fan, but the 140/135 is looking like the perfect all-rounder.
It's fine for one, trickier for two just because of space behind the driver's seat (less of an issue if the older one is forward facing by then). Had no issues with going away for holiday with pushchair, travel cot, highchair, etc in the back although we did spill over on to the rest of the back seat.
sjg said:
I posted these photos when I had mine: http://www.babybmw.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=69366
It's fine for one, trickier for two just because of space behind the driver's seat (less of an issue if the older one is forward facing by then). Had no issues with going away for holiday with pushchair, travel cot, highchair, etc in the back although we did spill over on to the rest of the back seat.
Helpful, thanks. The wee man is 3, and using a Recaro Monza Nova. My major concern is longish road trips and him not having any leg space. Decisions, decisions ...It's fine for one, trickier for two just because of space behind the driver's seat (less of an issue if the older one is forward facing by then). Had no issues with going away for holiday with pushchair, travel cot, highchair, etc in the back although we did spill over on to the rest of the back seat.
greggy50 said:
Surprisingly I tried a 2 series and it actually seemed a lot more spacious inside and appeared to have a bigger boot!
The 2 (the coupe, not the ghastly mini MPV thing) is four inches longer than the 1, all at the back. So yes, the boot is deeper from front to rear, and they may well have moved the rear seatback aft a little. Pal of mine has a 2 convertible and even with the well to make the roof disappear it's a lot roomier and more practical inside than I expected.greggy50 said:
BlackFlag said:
Anyone using one of these to haul around a small family (1 kid)? Coming from a mid-size estate. How is space in the rear?
Never been big BMW fan, but the 140/135 is looking like the perfect all-rounder.
I looked at a 1 series (potential company car) and found it very small inside and cramped in the front and rear. I am 6 foot 3 mind but just couldn't get comfortable behind the wheel. Never been big BMW fan, but the 140/135 is looking like the perfect all-rounder.
Surprisingly I tried a 2 series and it actually seemed a lot more spacious inside and appeared to have a bigger boot!
The F20 will be replacing a Mini Countryman, which none of us will miss.
wormus said:
BFleming said:
replacing a Mini Countryman, which none of us will miss.
Why on earth did you buy that?Considering BMW are known for liking to have epic optional extras lists, it does seem to me that they are missing a trick by not at least making LSDs available as a cost option, or at the very least, retrofittable as part of a performance package along side M Performance exhausts and the like.
Adding LSD to a mid-range model that has M-sport suspension and similar goodies would create some fun enthusiast cars with lower power and more exploitable limits...
Adding LSD to a mid-range model that has M-sport suspension and similar goodies would create some fun enthusiast cars with lower power and more exploitable limits...
vsonix said:
Considering BMW are known for liking to have epic optional extras lists, it does seem to me that they are missing a trick by not at least making LSDs available as a cost option, or at the very least, retrofittable as part of a performance package along side M Performance exhausts and the like.
Adding LSD to a mid-range model that has M-sport suspension and similar goodies would create some fun enthusiast cars with lower power and more exploitable limits...
You can have a LSD on the M140i as a dealer-fit item, just like the M-Performance exhaust and other stick-on bits. You can even roll that cost into the finance if you wished (£56pm added to a 36 month PCP for the diff).Adding LSD to a mid-range model that has M-sport suspension and similar goodies would create some fun enthusiast cars with lower power and more exploitable limits...
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