RE: Porsche 911 GT2 RS: Driven
Discussion
cardigankid said:
No, it isn't, but the journalists should make it clear that they are dealing with sports department specials and that they are not available to the ordinary punter. They should not, like Autocar recently did, have a British Sports Car of the Year group test, which lo and behold, the 991.2 GT3 wins, against more honest competition like the McLaren 570S and Aston DB11. As I recall it also had ceramic brakes and probably a special set of competition tyres. To test these cars in an open competition against vehicles you can buy is just fraudulent advertising by Porsche, and journalists indulging themselves rather than doing their job, which in the immediate post-Clarkson era is a general problem.
Once a car gets to a price level I couldn't conceivably afford, I totally lose interest in reading road tests, and now that I think of it I haven't read tests of the McLaren P1, Porsche 918, and of the GT cars, Bugatti Veyron or Chiron. When I was a boy I read all the Aston Martin road tests. I grew up, and one day I bought one. There's a difference.
I don't agree with all of your points, I can certainly understand your reasoning behind it.Once a car gets to a price level I couldn't conceivably afford, I totally lose interest in reading road tests, and now that I think of it I haven't read tests of the McLaren P1, Porsche 918, and of the GT cars, Bugatti Veyron or Chiron. When I was a boy I read all the Aston Martin road tests. I grew up, and one day I bought one. There's a difference.
Your point being you cannot go and buy a 911.2 GT3/RS as a "normal" person. Unless you want to buy it privately at double the "new retail" price.
Porsche GT cars have been forever consigned to the history books as collectors special editions.
xjay1337 said:
Unless you want to buy it privately at double the "new retail" price.
Porsche GT cars have been forever consigned to the history books as collectors special editions.
Porsche underpriced their halo GT cars in the name of brand filtering. Add to that the sheer ability of these cars beyond the competition coupled with restricted supply and this creates the premiums.Porsche GT cars have been forever consigned to the history books as collectors special editions.
But who is to say that the £500k plus for a flipped GT2RS is not the actual market value.
No different to anyone paying a similar amount for imo an overpriced McLaren which will inevitably show huge depreciation in a short period.
It's a free market and the market accordingly dictates the price.
Yes, but what they are doing is producing special editions that their mates can buy at a low price and the rest of us are supposed to ooh and aah over them. They should not be included in group tests because they are not available to the normal buyer, any more than a bespoke Rolls-Royce like the Sweptail. Let’s face it, Porsche’s are aimed at image conscious wealthy tossers, or more often their wives, who think that they are cool driving about in Cayennes, Macans or Panameras, and the rest of us are supposed to believe in the legend because of bribed journos reports about GT2RS’s etc which none of us are going to get near.
What sort of w
ker crowds around the latest GT2 release at Geneva? Porsche turn out a solid, but often not wonderful product, a lot of which are poorer than their direct competitors. I’ve had 3 and they are never as good as you hope they will be, but I’ll never oil their money printing factory by buying another one. Because I don’t own a hair salon. And Preuninger can stuff his GT products up his scrawny arse. Pay £70k for a 15 year old 996 GT3? Not when I can get a proper sports car, that is actually trying to deliver, brand new, for £45k.
What sort of w
ker crowds around the latest GT2 release at Geneva? Porsche turn out a solid, but often not wonderful product, a lot of which are poorer than their direct competitors. I’ve had 3 and they are never as good as you hope they will be, but I’ll never oil their money printing factory by buying another one. Because I don’t own a hair salon. And Preuninger can stuff his GT products up his scrawny arse. Pay £70k for a 15 year old 996 GT3? Not when I can get a proper sports car, that is actually trying to deliver, brand new, for £45k.Edited by cardigankid on Friday 16th March 21:48
New my dad would have seriously considered a new cayman GT4 if buying next year. iirc I heard somewhere the new one should be released sometime this year/next year and if near the price of the previous CGT4 of around ~£65k he would probably buy one HOWEVER he isn't on "the list" so obviously isn't worthy of owning a new special porsche. fk em
k emcardigankid said:
Yes, but what they are doing is producing special editions that their mates can buy at a low price and the rest of us are supposed to ooh and aah over them. They should not be included in group tests because they are not available to the normal buyer, any more than a bespoke Rolls-Royce like the Sweptail. Let’s face it, Porsche’s are aimed at image conscious wealthy tossers, or more often their wives, who think that they are cool driving about in Cayennes, Macans or Panameras, and the rest of us are supposed to believe in the legend because of bribed journos reports about GT2RS’s etc which none of us are going to get near.
What sort of wker crowds around the latest GT2 release at Geneva? Porsche turn out a solid, but often not wonderful product, a lot of which are poorer than their direct competitors. I’ve had 3 and they are never as good as you hope they will be, but I’ll never oil their money printing factory by buying another one. Because I don’t own a hair salon. And Preuninger can stuff his GT products up his scrawny arse. Pay £70k for a 15 year old 996 GT3? Not when I can get a proper sports car, that is actually trying to deliver, brand new, for £45k.
Sour grapes.What sort of w
ker crowds around the latest GT2 release at Geneva? Porsche turn out a solid, but often not wonderful product, a lot of which are poorer than their direct competitors. I’ve had 3 and they are never as good as you hope they will be, but I’ll never oil their money printing factory by buying another one. Because I don’t own a hair salon. And Preuninger can stuff his GT products up his scrawny arse. Pay £70k for a 15 year old 996 GT3? Not when I can get a proper sports car, that is actually trying to deliver, brand new, for £45k.Edited by cardigankid on Friday 16th March 21:48
av185 said:
cardigankid said:
Yes, but what they are doing is producing special editions that their mates can buy at a low price and the rest of us are supposed to ooh and aah over them. They should not be included in group tests because they are not available to the normal buyer, any more than a bespoke Rolls-Royce like the Sweptail. Let’s face it, Porsche’s are aimed at image conscious wealthy tossers, or more often their wives, who think that they are cool driving about in Cayennes, Macans or Panameras, and the rest of us are supposed to believe in the legend because of bribed journos reports about GT2RS’s etc which none of us are going to get near.
What sort of wker crowds around the latest GT2 release at Geneva? Porsche turn out a solid, but often not wonderful product, a lot of which are poorer than their direct competitors. I’ve had 3 and they are never as good as you hope they will be, but I’ll never oil their money printing factory by buying another one. Because I don’t own a hair salon. And Preuninger can stuff his GT products up his scrawny arse. Pay £70k for a 15 year old 996 GT3? Not when I can get a proper sports car, that is actually trying to deliver, brand new, for £45k.
Sour grapes.What sort of w
ker crowds around the latest GT2 release at Geneva? Porsche turn out a solid, but often not wonderful product, a lot of which are poorer than their direct competitors. I’ve had 3 and they are never as good as you hope they will be, but I’ll never oil their money printing factory by buying another one. Because I don’t own a hair salon. And Preuninger can stuff his GT products up his scrawny arse. Pay £70k for a 15 year old 996 GT3? Not when I can get a proper sports car, that is actually trying to deliver, brand new, for £45k.Edited by cardigankid on Friday 16th March 21:48
cardigankid said:
Yes, but what they are doing is producing special editions that their mates can buy at a low price and the rest of us are supposed to ooh and aah over them. They should not be included in group tests because they are not available to the normal buyer, any more than a bespoke Rolls-Royce like the Sweptail. Let’s face it, Porsche’s are aimed at image conscious wealthy tossers, or more often their wives, who think that they are cool driving about in Cayennes, Macans or Panameras, and the rest of us are supposed to believe in the legend because of bribed journos reports about GT2RS’s etc which none of us are going to get near.
What sort of wker crowds around the latest GT2 release at Geneva? Porsche turn out a solid, but often not wonderful product, a lot of which are poorer than their direct competitors. I’ve had 3 and they are never as good as you hope they will be, but I’ll never oil their money printing factory by buying another one. Because I don’t own a hair salon. And Preuninger can stuff his GT products up his scrawny arse. Pay £70k for a 15 year old 996 GT3? Not when I can get a proper sports car, that is actually trying to deliver, brand new, for £45k.
You're making an awful scene for someone who doesn't want one of their cars.What sort of w
ker crowds around the latest GT2 release at Geneva? Porsche turn out a solid, but often not wonderful product, a lot of which are poorer than their direct competitors. I’ve had 3 and they are never as good as you hope they will be, but I’ll never oil their money printing factory by buying another one. Because I don’t own a hair salon. And Preuninger can stuff his GT products up his scrawny arse. Pay £70k for a 15 year old 996 GT3? Not when I can get a proper sports car, that is actually trying to deliver, brand new, for £45k.Edited by cardigankid on Friday 16th March 21:48
Rawwr said:
cardigankid said:
Yes, but what they are doing is producing special editions that their mates can buy at a low price and the rest of us are supposed to ooh and aah over them. They should not be included in group tests because they are not available to the normal buyer, any more than a bespoke Rolls-Royce like the Sweptail. Let’s face it, Porsche’s are aimed at image conscious wealthy tossers, or more often their wives, who think that they are cool driving about in Cayennes, Macans or Panameras, and the rest of us are supposed to believe in the legend because of bribed journos reports about GT2RS’s etc which none of us are going to get near.
What sort of wker crowds around the latest GT2 release at Geneva? Porsche turn out a solid, but often not wonderful product, a lot of which are poorer than their direct competitors. I’ve had 3 and they are never as good as you hope they will be, but I’ll never oil their money printing factory by buying another one. Because I don’t own a hair salon. And Preuninger can stuff his GT products up his scrawny arse. Pay £70k for a 15 year old 996 GT3? Not when I can get a proper sports car, that is actually trying to deliver, brand new, for £45k.
You're making an awful scene for someone who doesn't want one of their cars.What sort of w
ker crowds around the latest GT2 release at Geneva? Porsche turn out a solid, but often not wonderful product, a lot of which are poorer than their direct competitors. I’ve had 3 and they are never as good as you hope they will be, but I’ll never oil their money printing factory by buying another one. Because I don’t own a hair salon. And Preuninger can stuff his GT products up his scrawny arse. Pay £70k for a 15 year old 996 GT3? Not when I can get a proper sports car, that is actually trying to deliver, brand new, for £45k.Edited by cardigankid on Friday 16th March 21:48
It is a fraud to allow these cars to be tested in competition with cars you can buy in the open market. Porsche is just a cynical money machine, most of their cars are badge engineering and for the most part their dealers are
s. It's a dream I am fed up chasing.I like cars and I respect car manufacturers with integrity who are trying to deliver the best cars they can to their customers, like McLaren. I feel entitled to criticise those who publicise quality but sell rubbish. Rubbish is relative. There are few bad cars these days. Does that explain my position?
Edited by cardigankid on Sunday 18th March 23:24
Rawwr said:
cardigankid said:
Yes, but what they are doing is producing special editions that their mates can buy at a low price and the rest of us are supposed to ooh and aah over them. They should not be included in group tests because they are not available to the normal buyer, any more than a bespoke Rolls-Royce like the Sweptail. Let’s face it, Porsche’s are aimed at image conscious wealthy tossers, or more often their wives, who think that they are cool driving about in Cayennes, Macans or Panameras, and the rest of us are supposed to believe in the legend because of bribed journos reports about GT2RS’s etc which none of us are going to get near.
What sort of wker crowds around the latest GT2 release at Geneva? Porsche turn out a solid, but often not wonderful product, a lot of which are poorer than their direct competitors. I’ve had 3 and they are never as good as you hope they will be, but I’ll never oil their money printing factory by buying another one. Because I don’t own a hair salon. And Preuninger can stuff his GT products up his scrawny arse. Pay £70k for a 15 year old 996 GT3? Not when I can get a proper sports car, that is actually trying to deliver, brand new, for £45k.
You're making an awful scene for someone who doesn't want one of their cars.What sort of w
ker crowds around the latest GT2 release at Geneva? Porsche turn out a solid, but often not wonderful product, a lot of which are poorer than their direct competitors. I’ve had 3 and they are never as good as you hope they will be, but I’ll never oil their money printing factory by buying another one. Because I don’t own a hair salon. And Preuninger can stuff his GT products up his scrawny arse. Pay £70k for a 15 year old 996 GT3? Not when I can get a proper sports car, that is actually trying to deliver, brand new, for £45k.Edited by cardigankid on Friday 16th March 21:48
It is a fraud to allow these cars to be tested in competition with cars you can buy in the open market. Porsche is just a cynical money machine, most of their cars are badge engineering and for the most part their dealers are
s. It's a dream I am fed up chasing.I like cars and I respect car manufacturers with integrity who are trying to deliver the best cars they can to their customers, like McLaren. I feel entitled to criticise those who publicise quality but sell rubbish. Rubbish is relative. There are few bad cars these days. Does that explain my position?
Edited by cardigankid on Tuesday 20th March 22:11
I dunno, I can see how it would leave a bitter taste in the mouth to essentially be told that you're not elite enough to buy one of these cars, even if you're already a Porsche customer, or a fan who has saved up enough money to buy one.
GT cars aren't something you can just buy anymore, they're essentially gifts from Porsche to a very elite few.
GT cars aren't something you can just buy anymore, they're essentially gifts from Porsche to a very elite few.
A Porsche GT car is a great car, good value and doesn't depreciate. What people want is free motoring, and they're jealous they can't have it.
It wasn't that difficult to get a previous generation GT3 or GT4 if you were patient. And if not, you paid a bit over list. So what? They are relatively cheap for their abilities; still under the money you'd pay for a technically inferior Ferrari.
It's pretty simply, if a GT3 depreciated by 50% over a couple of years then people would stop ranting about the whole allocation thing.
It is very fair that those who buy previous Porsches get the nod over people who waltz into a dealership want free motoring. It's not outrageous that Porsche limit supply to ensure they remain special.
And, for people that KEEP moaning, you can still buy a 997 GT3 or older for reasonable money. If you're really into driving and not just free motoring, I'd argue they're better than the newer stuff anyway.
It wasn't that difficult to get a previous generation GT3 or GT4 if you were patient. And if not, you paid a bit over list. So what? They are relatively cheap for their abilities; still under the money you'd pay for a technically inferior Ferrari.
It's pretty simply, if a GT3 depreciated by 50% over a couple of years then people would stop ranting about the whole allocation thing.
It is very fair that those who buy previous Porsches get the nod over people who waltz into a dealership want free motoring. It's not outrageous that Porsche limit supply to ensure they remain special.
And, for people that KEEP moaning, you can still buy a 997 GT3 or older for reasonable money. If you're really into driving and not just free motoring, I'd argue they're better than the newer stuff anyway.
Why are you assuming that everyone who wants to buy one of these cars wants "free motoring"? You're using that assertion as the foundation for your entire argument.
How about people who just want to buy and drive the car, who aren't particularly concerned about the depreciation?
I know of a few Speciale owners who felt obliged to sell even though they loved the car because the overs were impossible to ignore. I'm sure given the choice they would've held onto them, and enjoyed driving them, but faced with the prospect of every mile shaving value off of the car, and £100k+ overs, unless you were loaded then you didn't have much of a choice.
I would say your argument is predicated on the notion that Porsche can only build a finite number of these cars, and therefore the inevitable furore and bad feelings over allocations is unavoidable. Porsche (and others) are choosing to make these cars get treated like investment products.
How about people who just want to buy and drive the car, who aren't particularly concerned about the depreciation?
I know of a few Speciale owners who felt obliged to sell even though they loved the car because the overs were impossible to ignore. I'm sure given the choice they would've held onto them, and enjoyed driving them, but faced with the prospect of every mile shaving value off of the car, and £100k+ overs, unless you were loaded then you didn't have much of a choice.
I would say your argument is predicated on the notion that Porsche can only build a finite number of these cars, and therefore the inevitable furore and bad feelings over allocations is unavoidable. Porsche (and others) are choosing to make these cars get treated like investment products.
Durzel said:
Porsche (and others) are choosing to make these cars get treated like investment products.
Not really.The market decides, not Porsche.
It is partly the longstanding low interest rate environment which has driven the limited run halo car demand starting with the gen 1 GT3 as being another asset class to park money. Whilst rates increase slightly this is having an affect hence why top end prices have eased latterly.
What I find laughable are those who say they can't afford to pay or won't pay in principle market value or premium money for say a lightly used newish GT4 at 10k overs and yet would happily buy say a rapidly depreciating Mclaren instead.
I think there's certainly a case for publications not allowing intentionally limited production vehicles in their group tests. It's a mockery to allow the mighty GT3 to win every group test when you or I can't walk into an OPC and buy one. If publications all did this it might stop all this nonsense.
unpc said:
I think there's certainly a case for publications not allowing intentionally limited production vehicles in their group tests. It's a mockery to allow the mighty GT3 to win every group test when you or I can't walk into an OPC and buy one. If publications all did this it might stop all this nonsense.
But that takes away from those of us who are interested in cars but not interested in ownership.Rawwr said:
cardigankid said:
They have zero interest in selling them to the likes of you and me because that would get in the way of their money making machine.
Read that back to yourself.I omitted to add that the profitability of the whole operation is massively enhanced because they spend so little on product development. Every product is just a few gentle tweaks on the near identical previous one, or a VW group item which have facelifted and lightly enhanced. Sure, they have a great badge, and there is a lot of money to be made from it, but it is sad to see the baby go straight out of the window with the bath water.
hondansx said:
A Porsche GT car is a great car, good value and doesn't depreciate. What people want is free motoring, and they're jealous they can't have it.
It wasn't that difficult to get a previous generation GT3 or GT4 if you were patient. And if not, you paid a bit over list. So what? They are relatively cheap for their abilities; still under the money you'd pay for a technically inferior Ferrari.
It's pretty simply, if a GT3 depreciated by 50% over a couple of years then people would stop ranting about the whole allocation thing.
It is very fair that those who buy previous Porsches get the nod over people who waltz into a dealership want free motoring. It's not outrageous that Porsche limit supply to ensure they remain special.
And, for people that KEEP moaning, you can still buy a 997 GT3 or older for reasonable money. If you're really into driving and not just free motoring, I'd argue they're better than the newer stuff anyway.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. It's not about free motoring or flipping, its about getting the real rear engined, high pitched NA flat six driving experience which is what some of us enjoy. I don't want it for free and I don't plan to sell it on. And it certainly was that difficult to get allocated a GT3 or GT4, impossible actually, whether you have bought Porsches before or not. Have you tried it? Go into Porsche Mayfair for example. "I'm very sorry but we have an allocation of ten cars this year and there are already fifty people on the waiting list." As for Porsche Glasgow, they will just laugh and tell you to fIt wasn't that difficult to get a previous generation GT3 or GT4 if you were patient. And if not, you paid a bit over list. So what? They are relatively cheap for their abilities; still under the money you'd pay for a technically inferior Ferrari.
It's pretty simply, if a GT3 depreciated by 50% over a couple of years then people would stop ranting about the whole allocation thing.
It is very fair that those who buy previous Porsches get the nod over people who waltz into a dealership want free motoring. It's not outrageous that Porsche limit supply to ensure they remain special.
And, for people that KEEP moaning, you can still buy a 997 GT3 or older for reasonable money. If you're really into driving and not just free motoring, I'd argue they're better than the newer stuff anyway.
k off. And what was that rubbish about the GT3 Touring Pack about - "Porsche have listened to their customers and the supply of the Touring Pack will not be limited." That's what the journos said. Another lie. It's not limited provided that you already have a GT3 allocation which is, er, impossible.
How much are you supposed to spend on cars you don't want before they finally sell you one you do? Would it not be fairer to price the cars honestly and let people buy them. because I am not that enthusiastic about paying £110k for a Cayman GT4 which listed at £65k and has done a few thousand probably pretty hard miles in the hands the first owner (who is likely as not the dealer principal).
Anyway, I don't mind the cars being tested. I mind them being fraudulently tested by corrupt journos in a group against cars you can buy, as if you actually could buy a GT3 for £115k.
cardigankid said:
Look, could you read it a little more carefully. They have no interest in selling you or me GT products because the point of their moneymaking scam is not to sell you GT products, it is to sell you the vanilla stuff which they pretend is almost the same thing, but is where they make their money. That is what they want us to buy, meanwhile, only journos, celebs and people they regard as opinion formers get the GT product.
But that's patently not true? I know of someone who's getting a GT2RS. He's a long-standing Porsche customer and it's right that he should get first dibs on one. I know of people who have bought GT3s and RSs from dealers without too much of a problem. None of those people are in the categories you have in your imagination. In fact, they're all just ugly nerds who struggle to use the Internet.Porsche spend 'an amount of money' to develop a GTx car. All they need to do is sell a specific amount of units at a specific price to cover that 'an amount of money' and that's their special car sorted. If you're not lucky enough to get one, too bad. If you really want one, pay a speculator. If you don't really want one, what's the problem?
I collect trainers. Last month, the limited Jordan 1 Breds were released and I didn't get a pair. I really wanted them but they were limited supply and I missed out. If I wanted them badly enough, I could've gone on eBay and paid a £200 premium for a pair. I liked them but I didn't like them +£200. So I just bought something else instead. Maybe in the future, once the fuss has died down, I'll get a pair for a sensible price. In the meantime there are so many more other pairs that are available. Do I think Nike should stop announcing new trainers? Do I think people should stop talking about new releases? Do I feel angry that someone else got something I couldn't? No. That would be mental.
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