Bmw 4 series spun out of control m25
Discussion
Jader1973 said:
How did it happen?
You were driving like an idiot.
Learn to drive to the conditions.
+1You were driving like an idiot.
Learn to drive to the conditions.
Goes to show that driving for X amount of years does not make one a good driver, nor does it bestow relevant driving experience. Not that I am implying the OP is not a good driver, but the evidence suggests....
Anyway, driving that fast, in a car like a BMW 4 series (presumably over-tyred fat/wide tyres), in those conditions as explained in the OP is an absolute rookie mistake. I would expect that from someone who has been driving < 1 year, not someone with a claimed 7+ years of driving experience.
Still, now you've learned. Wont be making that mistake again
Over a long period of time you see trends in the kinds of threads that are posted. Most have been done several times before and you can predict how it's going to run before you've even started reading it.
But this is the first one I've seen where someone is asking how a car has spun out when doing 90mph on a wet road.
Ironically the BMW drivers manual shows a hint a German humour when it says the cars electronics can't break the laws of physics. To any other person totally unaware of the limits of traction a continuously flashing ESP light would be all the information they need to get them to slow down a bit.
The reason we have such draconian speed enforcement is for people like the OP who cannot drive to conditions, they look to blame anything but themselves and give the excuse that some autobahns are derestricted so driving quickly is always safe.
Do us all a favour and take some time off the roads.
But this is the first one I've seen where someone is asking how a car has spun out when doing 90mph on a wet road.
Ironically the BMW drivers manual shows a hint a German humour when it says the cars electronics can't break the laws of physics. To any other person totally unaware of the limits of traction a continuously flashing ESP light would be all the information they need to get them to slow down a bit.
The reason we have such draconian speed enforcement is for people like the OP who cannot drive to conditions, they look to blame anything but themselves and give the excuse that some autobahns are derestricted so driving quickly is always safe.
Do us all a favour and take some time off the roads.
Chestrockwell said:
When I say I’ve been driving 7 years, I’m not trying to say, 7 years is a long time and I’m experienced, no I’m just saying that’s how long I have been driving. In those 7 years I’ve had 2 e46 330is, a Lexus is200, clk430 and an ep3 civic type r, bar the Lexus, you could say they’re all ‘fast’ cars and I’m not going to lie by saying I haven’t gone over the speed limit in all of those cars, yet not once did I ever find myself in that position where I think I’m going to lose my life.
Somebody mentioned the steering in the 4 series is electric therefore hides how the car feels through the wheel? In my type r, at any speed I could feel everything through the steering wheel, I know it’s fwd but is this a contributing factor? The 4 series being too smooth for its own good by hiding the fact that it’s struggling to keep stable at 90 mph?
Thanks again for all your input, this is what I love about pistonheads, I literally learn something new everyday
It want really hiding the fact that it was struggling to keep stable. It wad telling you via the medium of a flashing traction control light.Somebody mentioned the steering in the 4 series is electric therefore hides how the car feels through the wheel? In my type r, at any speed I could feel everything through the steering wheel, I know it’s fwd but is this a contributing factor? The 4 series being too smooth for its own good by hiding the fact that it’s struggling to keep stable at 90 mph?
Thanks again for all your input, this is what I love about pistonheads, I literally learn something new everyday
I assume you hit the brakes when the car started to aquaplane, then the less worn tire found some grip first, causing the car to spin.
The problem with the current tech is that it can only respond to things that have already happened, not read the road ahead and anticipate. This is where the driver comes in.
Yipper said:
BMWs are not safe in the wet.
Atrocious handling and prone to aquaplaning and skidding.
Just watch the Clarkson video, where he spins in a straight line on a rainy day in a 1 Series.
Amazed people still buy them, given it rains every other day in Britain.
Are you Agent XXX in disguise haha! He says stupid things like that too. Atrocious handling and prone to aquaplaning and skidding.
Just watch the Clarkson video, where he spins in a straight line on a rainy day in a 1 Series.
Amazed people still buy them, given it rains every other day in Britain.
Of course BMWs are safe. Clarkson spinning is television. Even if it wasnt deliberate, he aquaplanes at 120mph. The Golf would have done the same if it had run over standing water at that speed!
The OP aquaplaned, which can happen in any car. Only time I ever experienced it was in a diesel FWD hatch. Only a minor wiggle on a dual carriageway, but that was more than enough to learn a valuable lesson.
Chestrockwell said:
Somebody mentioned the steering in the 4 series is electric therefore hides how the car feels through the wheel? In my type r, at any speed I could feel everything through the steering wheel, I know it’s fwd but is this a contributing factor? The 4 series being too smooth for its own good by hiding the fact that it’s struggling to keep stable at 90 mph?
Stop trying to blame the car and thank god you didn't come of age in the past when cars were harder to drive fast and less safe. f1nn said:
Yipper said:
BMWs are not safe in the wet.
Atrocious handling and prone to aquaplaning and skidding.
Just watch the Clarkson video, where he spins in a straight line on a rainy day in a 1 Series.
Amazed people still buy them, given it rains every other day in Britain.
Not sure if serious?Atrocious handling and prone to aquaplaning and skidding.
Just watch the Clarkson video, where he spins in a straight line on a rainy day in a 1 Series.
Amazed people still buy them, given it rains every other day in Britain.
I've covered 10's of thousands of miles in wet conditions in multiple RWD BMW's with power outputs from 140bhp to in excess of 400bhp, without incident.
They are perfectly safe.
I like to press on like any PHer but always take great care in the wet.
I am Glad you are here to tell the story!
Apart from Brown trousers, you have learned too much speed can have serious consequences.
Luckily you and no one else nor your car were hurt/damaged.
Aqua planning is horrible and dangerous.
Lucky you are still able to walk/talk and type about it.
No one was hurt in the end, and you I am sure will drive slower and at speeds considering the conditions a little more.
Apart from Brown trousers, you have learned too much speed can have serious consequences.
Luckily you and no one else nor your car were hurt/damaged.
Aqua planning is horrible and dangerous.
Lucky you are still able to walk/talk and type about it.
No one was hurt in the end, and you I am sure will drive slower and at speeds considering the conditions a little more.
I was travelling westbound on the M25 near the M11 some years ago on the nearside lane, and it was raining, I noticed a car coming up very fast in the outermost lane, which turned to be a big Merc. Unfortunately for the Merc both the outer and middle lanes had cars in them, with the car in the middle lane being some 25 metres ahead of the one in the outer lane. This seemed to prompt the Merc driver to try an undertake by switching to the middle lane, which in turn prompted the driver in the outer lane to move to the centre lane, to get out of the Mercs way (although if he had been using his mirrors properly, he would have seen the Merc coming up much earlier)
So now we had a situation with the Merc in the middle lane behind the car which had moved into that lane. The Merc driver must have floored it then, because the next second the Merc did a series of complete 360`s where the rear of the car, (which was brand new by the way!), just missed hitting the concrete center barriers by mere millimeters!
Somehow the driver of the Merc got it back under control (luck or what?), and then proceeded to gingerly move off the M25 onto the M11 slip road, I surmised that he was probably going to take a change of underpants. It certainly was a memorable incident rom where I was sitting
So now we had a situation with the Merc in the middle lane behind the car which had moved into that lane. The Merc driver must have floored it then, because the next second the Merc did a series of complete 360`s where the rear of the car, (which was brand new by the way!), just missed hitting the concrete center barriers by mere millimeters!
Somehow the driver of the Merc got it back under control (luck or what?), and then proceeded to gingerly move off the M25 onto the M11 slip road, I surmised that he was probably going to take a change of underpants. It certainly was a memorable incident rom where I was sitting
It’s absolutely nothing to do with the car, this is a red herring, it’s just inappropriate speed in poor conditions. Look at the video, this is a Q7 and it lets go pretty easily.
https://youtu.be/nS1WpvA4E2U
https://youtu.be/nS1WpvA4E2U
Chestrockwell said:
I checked the tyres, there rears are on at least 3 mil, maybe more, the front left one is on also 3 And the other is on at least 6 as I replaced it a few months ago.
As today is an educational day for you, some more “wisdom” (for what it’s worth) - you should generally replace tyres in pairs, rather than just doing one, particularly if there’s going to be a large difference in tread depth between one and the other. It’s easy to Google for this, and you’ll find varying advice. Still, you may want to read this article, which could relate to your situation.https://www.cars.com/articles/do-i-need-to-replace...
“A car with four tires that behave the same — whether accelerating, braking or cornering — is balanced and predictable. If any of these factors are different at one or more wheels, traction characteristics can vary and performance will be unbalanced.”
swerni said:
Utter b
ks.
We are more than capable of leaning without experiencing it ourself.
What has he learned? Don't drive so fast in the wet? Must of us realise that without having to spin on the M25
I don't need to crash a car at 150mph to understand the likely outcome.
Not bks.We are more than capable of leaning without experiencing it ourself.
What has he learned? Don't drive so fast in the wet? Must of us realise that without having to spin on the M25
I don't need to crash a car at 150mph to understand the likely outcome.
ks at all, if he's done that for the 7 years he's been driving and never spun, how is he to know that it isn't safe if he's had only positive reinforcement that its ok to do so because its never bitten him. And its not just the headline speed - you telling me no one ever speeds, wet or dry? I've seen loads of people doing way over 30 in a 30 zone in the rain this morning....My point isn't everyone should crash - obviously as I didn't say that - but that both good and bad experiences contribute to our understanding of a situation, contribute to our skillset (as long as the right mental approach to accepting and dealing with it is present, and appears to be) and help our outcomes.
You can have a perfectly scary moment that you learn from all on your own, doesn't have to involve other cars (as I did in the woods and on a wet roundabout with the supra) - this is his one.
Its a life lesson - just like when you electrocute yourself changing a wall socket, or burn your fingers under a running tap when you are a kid, or speeding in a 50 zone, getting a ticket, going on a driver awareness course and learning about dangers you hadn't considered before.
Of course, so many people on this thread are perfect angels and never do anything wrong. I've f
ked up loads of times in life and hopefully learnt from it without hurting other people.Chestrockwell said:
Thank you for the positive responses and negative ones, like I said I admit fault and was not aware of this aquaplaning, never heard of it until now.
You're going to take a bit of a kicking from some people on here, because what happened was your fault, 100%. Having said that, the quote above to me is the single most important thing you have said on here.In no way trying to be patronising, you know that the speed was an issue, and you now know you aquaplained. But by your own admission you don't know what that actually is, which is in part what put you in the situation in the first place.
Below is a link to a horribly American video explains what it is, why it happens, and the theory about what to do when it happens. Notice that the speeds they are talking about are more like 40mph, not 90.
https://youtu.be/TdwuftIUwYY
You got away with it, and if the result is that you spend some time making sure you take steps not to end up in the same situation again, then it's a win.
Just remember the title of the thread is wrong. Your 4 series didn't randomly spin, you span the car. If you come away accepting that and understanding why, you're on to a winner.
Also, 3mm on the back is legal but pretty worn. It's never going to be helpful in situations like this. But you could absolutely make safe progress in the rain on those tyres, if you cut the speed.
Yipper said:
BMWs are not safe in the wet.
Atrocious handling and prone to aquaplaning and skidding.
Just watch the Clarkson video, where he spins in a straight line on a rainy day in a 1 Series.
Amazed people still buy them, given it rains every other day in Britain.
Not again Yipper. Not funny anymore. Annoying. Every day, every thread. Atrocious handling and prone to aquaplaning and skidding.
Just watch the Clarkson video, where he spins in a straight line on a rainy day in a 1 Series.
Amazed people still buy them, given it rains every other day in Britain.
It's worth noting that, generally speaking, a car looses directional stability after aqua-planning because of the drivers excessive inputs .
An object with mass (your car), with a low friction connection (its tyres sliding along on a film of water above the road surface) does not suddenly start to spin all of it's own. What happens is the driver tends to wind on excessive steering as they suddenly start to feel the car slide, and at 90mph, excessive steering can be as little as 10 or 15 deg handwheel input (next time you change lane on the mway, notice how little you turn the handwheel to do so!)
Then the car regains gip just as suddenly as it lost it, but the front wheels are now at a large angle to the road. And on modern cars, they have such grippy types, and such huge lateral stiffness (in the suspension) the resulting yaw acceleration is un-tenable, and sends the car into a high rate of turn spin from which even the stability control cannot recover.
In some cases, the aquaplaning only happens on one side of the car, because the road has puddles or is cambered, here, there can be an external yaw force, but it always feels more than it is to the driver, especially if they weren't expecting or ready for it. Braking, sudden throttle or excessive handwheel inputs will all then contribute to an inevitable spin.
Very, very few drivers have the necessary intrinsic skill (you haven't got time to think about it) or experience to control very high speed slides, (I would class high speed as being about about 40mph btw), especially if they also haven't got the experience and skill to realise that they might have to apply such skills (ie they haven't even noticed that the car is getting close to the stability limit)
As an example, watch this video, from about 2:30 onwards:
bridgetogantry_125i_wet_nring
Notice the handwheel inputs required to keep directional stability! (The high rate of input, but critically, in both directions. ie, the corrective lock comes off very rapidly, before the car builds excessive yaw)
An object with mass (your car), with a low friction connection (its tyres sliding along on a film of water above the road surface) does not suddenly start to spin all of it's own. What happens is the driver tends to wind on excessive steering as they suddenly start to feel the car slide, and at 90mph, excessive steering can be as little as 10 or 15 deg handwheel input (next time you change lane on the mway, notice how little you turn the handwheel to do so!)
Then the car regains gip just as suddenly as it lost it, but the front wheels are now at a large angle to the road. And on modern cars, they have such grippy types, and such huge lateral stiffness (in the suspension) the resulting yaw acceleration is un-tenable, and sends the car into a high rate of turn spin from which even the stability control cannot recover.
In some cases, the aquaplaning only happens on one side of the car, because the road has puddles or is cambered, here, there can be an external yaw force, but it always feels more than it is to the driver, especially if they weren't expecting or ready for it. Braking, sudden throttle or excessive handwheel inputs will all then contribute to an inevitable spin.
Very, very few drivers have the necessary intrinsic skill (you haven't got time to think about it) or experience to control very high speed slides, (I would class high speed as being about about 40mph btw), especially if they also haven't got the experience and skill to realise that they might have to apply such skills (ie they haven't even noticed that the car is getting close to the stability limit)
As an example, watch this video, from about 2:30 onwards:
bridgetogantry_125i_wet_nring
Notice the handwheel inputs required to keep directional stability! (The high rate of input, but critically, in both directions. ie, the corrective lock comes off very rapidly, before the car builds excessive yaw)
I don't have tips or advice to give and I don't want to scream at you about road conditions and all that stuff.
But I would like to thank you for posting this. I have a german rwd (it's also my first rwd car) and do somewhat subscribe to the incorrect attitude of "German engineering is an extra layer of protection". Maybe not to the extent of doing 90 on a wet motorway, but this reminder of physics > engineering has made me reevaluate my driving in all conditions.
But I would like to thank you for posting this. I have a german rwd (it's also my first rwd car) and do somewhat subscribe to the incorrect attitude of "German engineering is an extra layer of protection". Maybe not to the extent of doing 90 on a wet motorway, but this reminder of physics > engineering has made me reevaluate my driving in all conditions.
Alucidnation said:
You can say all you like, but most of the driving population don't really drive around thinking they are now invincible because their car has safety features.
You may very well think that. A book entitled 'Man and Motor Car' by Dr Stephen Black written in c.1966 covered that very subject. He took a number of typical drivers and made suggestions under hypnosis regarding the driving and handling characteristics of two cars: a Sunbeam Alpine as typical of a sporty saloon of the day, and a Jensen Interceptor FF with Ferguson Formula four wheel drive and Dunlop Maxaret anti-lock brakes. He described to the subjects how the Sunbeam might behave on a slalom course in wet conditions culminating in an emergency braking and avoidance scenario. The Sunbeam would variously slew off the road in the slalom or lock up in the avoidance event with no directional control with all wheels locked. Then he repeated the exercise for the Jensen and told them how it would manage the slalom more certainly because of the Ferguson Formula 4WD system, and how it would not skid under heavy braking allowing the driver to steer around an obstacle. You would expect the subjects to react along the lines of "Wow that's wonderful!" "How much safer the roads would be if we all had those!" However their reaction was diametrically opposite of what was expected. This sums it up: "Fantastic! God, I could get away with murder in one of those! I would really show them how to drive!" In short the focus was on how much faster the driver could go not on the improved safety in normal conditions. Edited by Alucidnation on Saturday 11th November 12:27
Max_Torque said:
As an example, watch this video, from about 2:30 onwards:
bridgetogantry_125i_wet_nring
Notice the handwheel inputs required to keep directional stability! (The high rate of input, but critically, in both directions. ie, the corrective lock comes off very rapidly, before the car builds excessive yaw)
I'm not an expert but the 'handwheel' inputs seemed more for dramatic effect.bridgetogantry_125i_wet_nring
Notice the handwheel inputs required to keep directional stability! (The high rate of input, but critically, in both directions. ie, the corrective lock comes off very rapidly, before the car builds excessive yaw)
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