Rip off garages alive and well.
Discussion
Mound Dawg said:
We have more problems with people buying their own parts for garages to fit than anything else because they either know Fanny Adams about cars of just guess when faced with alternatives.
Recent example (yesterday). Owner bought a carb gasket set and asked us to send it to the garage doing the work. Garage rings, this carburettor gasket set you've sent is wrong, checked part number, yup it's a Weber carb set. Yeah, but this car's got Dellortos.
Problem now is he's opened it and the gaskets have got oily paw prints on them so I don't want them back. So he's going to have to buy the correct set as he's the one who assumed that they were Webers.
100% mark up right there.
And who pays for the mechanic's wasted time if he rocks up and can't do the job because you bought the wrong oil filter?
That reminds me of a customer of mine, he had a Porsche 911 and had diagnised a faulty oil level sender and bought a new one for me to fit. Ive never seen one fail before but ok. Checked it myself and found the sender wiring had been eaten by a mouse...Recent example (yesterday). Owner bought a carb gasket set and asked us to send it to the garage doing the work. Garage rings, this carburettor gasket set you've sent is wrong, checked part number, yup it's a Weber carb set. Yeah, but this car's got Dellortos.
Problem now is he's opened it and the gaskets have got oily paw prints on them so I don't want them back. So he's going to have to buy the correct set as he's the one who assumed that they were Webers.
100% mark up right there.
And who pays for the mechanic's wasted time if he rocks up and can't do the job because you bought the wrong oil filter?
Edited by Mound Dawg on Wednesday 15th November 07:26
Andyjc86 said:
I love a good garage bashing thread, it’s makes us feel like such valued members of society.
Most mechanics I know are as honest as the day is long. The problem we find is expectations have changed, everyone expects something for nothing.
That might be what some pepole expect but I think most of us just don't expect nothing for something Most mechanics I know are as honest as the day is long. The problem we find is expectations have changed, everyone expects something for nothing.
As has been pointed out, there are bad garages and there are bad customers, but also there is less money floating about these days (obviously not on PH but in the real world) so people are having to try and save money where they can and some companies are making up the shortfall by making the most out of every 'opportunity'.
Just how are young people supposed to run a car these days when they earn less, get raped by the insurance companies and cars just aren't designed to be tinkered with at home without specialist equipment so every problem is a trip to the garage which costs them a weeks wages for even the most basic little job!
Andyjc86 said:
I love a good garage bashing thread, it’s makes us feel like such valued members of society.
Most mechanics I know are as honest as the day is long. The problem we find is expectations have changed, everyone expects something for nothing.
I started this thread. I certainly don't expect anyone to work for nothing, but when a Garage wants to charge more for a 'diagnosis' of a broken drive shaft, than my Mechanic charged to replace it, then there's something wrong. Most mechanics I know are as honest as the day is long. The problem we find is expectations have changed, everyone expects something for nothing.
I fully accept that bigger Garages also have higher overheads, but to quote almost £900 for a job that was completed for a little over 10% of that is taking the piss.
Tim
Shuvi McTupya said:
That might be what some pepole expect but I think most of us just don't expect nothing for something
As has been pointed out, there are bad garages and there are bad customers, but also there is less money floating about these days (obviously not on PH but in the real world) so people are having to try and save money where they can and some companies are making up the shortfall by making the most out of every 'opportunity'.
Just how are young people supposed to run a car these days when they earn less, get raped by the insurance companies and cars just aren't designed to be tinkered with at home without specialist equipment so every problem is a trip to the garage which costs them a weeks wages for even the most basic little job!
Its an interesting statement the last paragraph. My view (being over 40 years old) is that young people expect more, too quickly. At 25 I was driving around in a 1.4L Ford Orion which I paid the princely sum of £800 for, nowadays at 25 most people I meet at car events and the like want to be in V6s or turbo performance cars. Hell kids nowadays want to be in them at 18. As has been pointed out, there are bad garages and there are bad customers, but also there is less money floating about these days (obviously not on PH but in the real world) so people are having to try and save money where they can and some companies are making up the shortfall by making the most out of every 'opportunity'.
Just how are young people supposed to run a car these days when they earn less, get raped by the insurance companies and cars just aren't designed to be tinkered with at home without specialist equipment so every problem is a trip to the garage which costs them a weeks wages for even the most basic little job!
OK I admit insurance is up and even at 18 a pokey little Corsa insurance runs into four figures (my first car at 18 was a beat up old VW polo and cost £600 insurance and that was in the early 90s so not cheap either). But yes certainly truth in more modern cars requiring specialist equipment.
That said, to my point, there seems to be a lot of 'I need this now' from the younger car buyer group rather than a save up, wait until an age when insurance is affordable and buy it then...
/Flame suit on
coldel said:
Its an interesting statement the last paragraph. My view (being over 40 years old) is that young people expect more, too quickly. At 25 I was driving around in a 1.4L Ford Orion which I paid the princely sum of £800 for, nowadays at 25 most people I meet at car events and the like want to be in V6s or turbo performance cars. Hell kids nowadays want to be in them at 18.
OK I admit insurance is up and even at 18 a pokey little Corsa insurance runs into four figures (my first car at 18 was a beat up old VW polo and cost £600 insurance and that was in the early 90s so not cheap either). But yes certainly truth in more modern cars requiring specialist equipment.
That said, to my point, there seems to be a lot of 'I need this now' from the younger car buyer group rather than a save up, wait until an age when insurance is affordable and buy it then...
/Flame suit on
You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own truth.OK I admit insurance is up and even at 18 a pokey little Corsa insurance runs into four figures (my first car at 18 was a beat up old VW polo and cost £600 insurance and that was in the early 90s so not cheap either). But yes certainly truth in more modern cars requiring specialist equipment.
That said, to my point, there seems to be a lot of 'I need this now' from the younger car buyer group rather than a save up, wait until an age when insurance is affordable and buy it then...
/Flame suit on
It is an objective fact to say that things are financially, and significantly, more difficult for the current generation than their parents.
If you don't believe that, then read into it.
coldel said:
Its an interesting statement the last paragraph. My view (being over 40 years old) is that young people expect more, too quickly. At 25 I was driving around in a 1.4L Ford Orion which I paid the princely sum of £800 for, nowadays at 25 most people I meet at car events and the like want to be in V6s or turbo performance cars. Hell kids nowadays want to be in them at 18.
OK I admit insurance is up and even at 18 a pokey little Corsa insurance runs into four figures (my first car at 18 was a beat up old VW polo and cost £600 insurance and that was in the early 90s so not cheap either). But yes certainly truth in more modern cars requiring specialist equipment.
That said, to my point, there seems to be a lot of 'I need this now' from the younger car buyer group rather than a save up, wait until an age when insurance is affordable and buy it when then...
/Flame suit on
I am over 40 as well and I have never owned a new car or leased one.OK I admit insurance is up and even at 18 a pokey little Corsa insurance runs into four figures (my first car at 18 was a beat up old VW polo and cost £600 insurance and that was in the early 90s so not cheap either). But yes certainly truth in more modern cars requiring specialist equipment.
That said, to my point, there seems to be a lot of 'I need this now' from the younger car buyer group rather than a save up, wait until an age when insurance is affordable and buy it when then...
/Flame suit on
When I was a new driver in the late 80's I don't know anyone that even entertained the idea of buying a new car on credit, these days that seems to be a normal way of life and I guess it starts with phones. Life seems to be about how much debt you can handle rather than how much can you put aside to save for stuff. People driving around in brand new cars but can't afford to buy lunch
Nanook said:
Calm down, every problem isn't a trip to the garage that's going to cost a weeks wages.
There are still plenty of jobs that can be carried out at home on your driveway, and the sort of home mechanic that can't diagnose a fuel injection issue is likely to be the sort of home mechanic that wasn't able to diagnose, strip, and rebuild a carb either.
I've just looked, you can't lease a Dacia Sandero for £700 deposit, and 47 monthly payments of £116.77.
So your choices are, learn how to fix a car, earn more money, or lease something.
Those were always , and always will be the choices, unless of course mummy and daddy can help. There are still plenty of jobs that can be carried out at home on your driveway, and the sort of home mechanic that can't diagnose a fuel injection issue is likely to be the sort of home mechanic that wasn't able to diagnose, strip, and rebuild a carb either.
I've just looked, you can't lease a Dacia Sandero for £700 deposit, and 47 monthly payments of £116.77.
So your choices are, learn how to fix a car, earn more money, or lease something.
That lease deal actually doesn't sound too horrific , I don't know how much that gets bumped up with insurance costs, I know I sold a 1.4 fiesta to a girl who had just passed her test at 25 and her insurance was going to be approx £2k a year, on a car worth half a bag!
Prof Prolapse said:
You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own truth.
It is an objective fact to say that things are financially, and significantly, more difficult for the current generation than their parents.
If you don't believe that, then read into it.
I never said that. But can see how you quickly read my post and read something different.It is an objective fact to say that things are financially, and significantly, more difficult for the current generation than their parents.
If you don't believe that, then read into it.
I said that expectations of a younger generation seem to be different to that of when I was at that age. The idea of owning a car 4 or 5 years old at the age of 18, let alone one with an engine larger than 1L was unheard of, unless you had wealthy parents or some other benefactor. I go to shows and meets now and see teenagers in performance cars en-masse.
Now I ask, why?
Finance seems to be much more readily available, back in the 90s you physically had to go to a bank, speak with an advisor, go through a fair amount of hoops and get a loan. Now I can do it in 5 minutes online.
Social media? Well if we are talking facts, its a fact that social media drives a need for people to display success, wealth, attainment as well as seeing what everyone else is doing. Seeing your peers in say a V6 will instigate a want to do the same, regardless of the cost.
Nanook said:
You say "completed". The garage would have been providing you with a new part, with a warranty.
You've sourced a second hand part, and had someone else fit it.
You're comparing apples with oranges. Your mechanic hasn't completed the same job, or provided you with the same service as the first garage would have.
That's not to say the first place wasn't a bit overpriced, without seeing a breakdown of the invoice, who knows.
Where did I say that I bought a second hand part? It was brand new with a two year guarantee. If I can buy a perfectly acceptable part for less than £50, then the garage are quoting what, £750 for the same thing?You've sourced a second hand part, and had someone else fit it.
You're comparing apples with oranges. Your mechanic hasn't completed the same job, or provided you with the same service as the first garage would have.
That's not to say the first place wasn't a bit overpriced, without seeing a breakdown of the invoice, who knows.
coldel said:
Prof Prolapse said:
You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own truth.
It is an objective fact to say that things are financially, and significantly, more difficult for the current generation than their parents.
If you don't believe that, then read into it.
I never said that. But can see how you quickly read my post and read something different.It is an objective fact to say that things are financially, and significantly, more difficult for the current generation than their parents.
If you don't believe that, then read into it.
I said that expectations of a younger generation seem to be different to that of when I was at that age. The idea of owning a car 4 or 5 years old at the age of 18, let alone one with an engine larger than 1L was unheard of, unless you had wealthy parents or some other benefactor. I go to shows and meets now and see teenagers in performance cars en-masse.
Now I ask, why?
Finance seems to be much more readily available, back in the 90s you physically had to go to a bank, speak with an advisor, go through a fair amount of hoops and get a loan. Now I can do it in 5 minutes online.
Social media? Well if we are talking facts, its a fact that social media drives a need for people to display success, wealth, attainment as well as seeing what everyone else is doing. Seeing your peers in say a V6 will instigate a want to do the same, regardless of the cost.
Young people are expected to be fully self sufficient from the moment they drop out of their Mums noony.
The minute you turn 18 you are generally expected to be in work or further education. s
People enjoy cars I wouldn't say that loans are any "easier" to get in the most part, if anything, they are harder. It's just that they are easier to ACCESS. Why would anyone WANT to go down to the bank and spend 30 minutes getting there, pay a few quid to park, sit down for 30 minutes and then drive home when you can do it in 5 minutes?
Cars are safer than they were 15+ years ago.
Ergo car insurance is cheaper
The cars that were incredibly expensive and shiny and new then are now very affordable.
Likewise you can either spend £5k on a used car privately that may break (and make it hard to get to work/school etc) or you can pay a nominal fee each month to get a brand new car with breakdown, full warranty, etc
Likewise back in the day everyone wanted to be in an Escort Cosworth or 300ZX or whatever it's nothing new.
xjay1337 said:
The reason?
Young people are expected to be fully self sufficient from the moment they drop out of their Mums noony.
The minute you turn 18 you are generally expected to be in work or further education. s
People enjoy cars I wouldn't say that loans are any "easier" to get in the most part, if anything, they are harder. It's just that they are easier to ACCESS. Why would anyone WANT to go down to the bank and spend 30 minutes getting there, pay a few quid to park, sit down for 30 minutes and then drive home when you can do it in 5 minutes?
Cars are safer than they were 15+ years ago.
Ergo car insurance is cheaper
The cars that were incredibly expensive and shiny and new then are now very affordable.
Likewise you can either spend £5k on a used car privately that may break (and make it hard to get to work/school etc) or you can pay a nominal fee each month to get a brand new car with breakdown, full warranty, etc
Likewise back in the day everyone wanted to be in an Escort Cosworth or 300ZX or whatever it's nothing new.
Are you saying insurance is cheaper now than 15 years ago, or cheaper for cars that are 15 years old? I wasn't entirely clear what you were saying there as if it were the former then that would contradict previous posts by other people?Young people are expected to be fully self sufficient from the moment they drop out of their Mums noony.
The minute you turn 18 you are generally expected to be in work or further education. s
People enjoy cars I wouldn't say that loans are any "easier" to get in the most part, if anything, they are harder. It's just that they are easier to ACCESS. Why would anyone WANT to go down to the bank and spend 30 minutes getting there, pay a few quid to park, sit down for 30 minutes and then drive home when you can do it in 5 minutes?
Cars are safer than they were 15+ years ago.
Ergo car insurance is cheaper
The cars that were incredibly expensive and shiny and new then are now very affordable.
Likewise you can either spend £5k on a used car privately that may break (and make it hard to get to work/school etc) or you can pay a nominal fee each month to get a brand new car with breakdown, full warranty, etc
Likewise back in the day everyone wanted to be in an Escort Cosworth or 300ZX or whatever it's nothing new.
On the finance side, I was talking less about the logistics and more about the actual award of a loan. If you went to a bank and wanted a loan years ago and you were a student working part time you would be turned away in a flash. Now you can apply online, even if unemployed, and get an unsecured loan. This I think makes it easier for younger people to get into cars which in years gone by might not have been available to them.
Anyway, I guess my original comment was around why there is this need for young people to get into performance cars - possibly sooner than they can afford to run them. It could be a social thing, ease of purchase etc. but was genuinely interested in what people thought as personally I feel the mentality has changed quite significantly.
catman said:
Nanook said:
You say "completed". The garage would have been providing you with a new part, with a warranty.
You've sourced a second hand part, and had someone else fit it.
You're comparing apples with oranges. Your mechanic hasn't completed the same job, or provided you with the same service as the first garage would have.
That's not to say the first place wasn't a bit overpriced, without seeing a breakdown of the invoice, who knows.
Where did I say that I bought a second hand part? It was brand new with a two year guarantee. If I can buy a perfectly acceptable part for less than £50, then the garage are quoting what, £750 for the same thing?You've sourced a second hand part, and had someone else fit it.
You're comparing apples with oranges. Your mechanic hasn't completed the same job, or provided you with the same service as the first garage would have.
That's not to say the first place wasn't a bit overpriced, without seeing a breakdown of the invoice, who knows.
dme123 said:
Probably because they are using an OEM quality part like the original one that lasted a decade, and if my experience of aftermarket parts is anything to go by your £50 driveshaft has a 95% chance of being total crap and may well not make it out of the warranty period. If you're happy with something that may well last 1/5th as long then that's your choice, but the dealer isn't going to want to touch that with a barge pole and I can't blame them.
If (in the unlikely event) it did only last 1/5 as long, he can replace it five times and will still be quids in! dme123 said:
Probably because they are using an OEM quality part like the original one that lasted a decade, and if my experience of aftermarket parts is anything to go by your £50 driveshaft has a 95% chance of being total crap and may well not make it out of the warranty period. If you're happy with something that will probably last 1/5th as long then that's your choice, but the dealer isn't going to want to touch that with a barge pole and I can't blame them.
Yes. Its not unusual to see huge differences in prices for OEM vs aftermarket. A dealer will likely go OEM official parts which are generally expensive but you get the warranty, you get a part that was made and tested to death for your car. You can get really good quality aftermarket parts but generally they are not discounted to massive levels, they can be cheaper (or more expensive!) than OEM. You can also get rubbish parts, stuff made on the cheap that are in no way tested to the levels of the above two.
Its called allocation of risk, if you go cheap, then you carry the savings to your side in terms of running a likely lower quality part.
coldel said:
Are you saying insurance is cheaper now than 15 years ago, or cheaper for cars that are 15 years old? I wasn't entirely clear what you were saying there as if it were the former then that would contradict previous posts by other people?
On the finance side, I was talking less about the logistics and more about the actual award of a loan. If you went to a bank and wanted a loan years ago and you were a student working part time you would be turned away in a flash. Now you can apply online, even if unemployed, and get an unsecured loan. This I think makes it easier for younger people to get into cars which in years gone by might not have been available to them.
Anyway, I guess my original comment was around why there is this need for young people to get into performance cars - possibly sooner than they can afford to run them. It could be a social thing, ease of purchase etc. but was genuinely interested in what people thought as personally I feel the mentality has changed quite significantly.
Car insurance groups are lower than they were previously given the cost/value/performance and specialist insurers are around now that perhaps weren't to cover certain groups On the finance side, I was talking less about the logistics and more about the actual award of a loan. If you went to a bank and wanted a loan years ago and you were a student working part time you would be turned away in a flash. Now you can apply online, even if unemployed, and get an unsecured loan. This I think makes it easier for younger people to get into cars which in years gone by might not have been available to them.
Anyway, I guess my original comment was around why there is this need for young people to get into performance cars - possibly sooner than they can afford to run them. It could be a social thing, ease of purchase etc. but was genuinely interested in what people thought as personally I feel the mentality has changed quite significantly.
I don't think anyone can get a decent unsecured loan with no income. You would still be turned away today with no income from all but the most shark/
like lenders (Eg Amigo , Ocean or whatever)I don't think there are many people who would do so anyway. I know of a few lads who used their student loans to build their cars and the soon had to sell them to claw back some money 18 months into their studies.
Many people prioritise their car(s) highly and that goes through the ages. I don't think it's anything new perhaps just more noticeable.
Cars seem to be a common hobby now which is more socially acceptable than it was say 15 years ago.
out of interest, I had a look at the most expensive part on the same website and it was £350.
It was also the same brand that I got for £50. So you don't always get better quality by aying more.
My Mechanic also said that he has often fitted the supposedly inferior brands without any problems after. And also, on an old car, a saving of almost £800 is considerable.
Tim
It was also the same brand that I got for £50. So you don't always get better quality by aying more.
My Mechanic also said that he has often fitted the supposedly inferior brands without any problems after. And also, on an old car, a saving of almost £800 is considerable.
Tim
Ed/L152 said:
Garage (which I mostly trust?!) - Quoted £630 to replace the turbo because the wastegate is stuck.
Me - 20 minutes finding where the hell the actual wastegate is(!), 5 minutes removing the air intake house to get access, 5 minutes with a screwdriver levering against the actuator connector thingy, 20 minute italian tune-up on the way home to clear carbon deposit.
= No more stuck wastegate and £630 still in my pocket.
I'm not crowing too loud because it might stick again at some point, but I'm a bit annoyed they jumped straight to the 'needs new turbo' without even trying.
I don't mind paying a bit extra for the parts, because I know their price on parts will be subsidising their labour rate to an extent, but there's no need to manufacture needless work.
Devils advocate.Me - 20 minutes finding where the hell the actual wastegate is(!), 5 minutes removing the air intake house to get access, 5 minutes with a screwdriver levering against the actuator connector thingy, 20 minute italian tune-up on the way home to clear carbon deposit.
= No more stuck wastegate and £630 still in my pocket.
I'm not crowing too loud because it might stick again at some point, but I'm a bit annoyed they jumped straight to the 'needs new turbo' without even trying.
I don't mind paying a bit extra for the parts, because I know their price on parts will be subsidising their labour rate to an extent, but there's no need to manufacture needless work.
Garage present both options to customer - one guaranteed fix, one potential fix but cheap.
Customer chooses potential fix, but it doesn't fix it. Customer is presented with a quote for turbo replacement, an hours labour and has lost a quarter of a tank of fuel - refuses to pay a penny as they haven't fixed the car and moans to everyone who'll listen they are rip-off merchants.
I can kind of see it.
Tim-D said:
Recently has a spring snap on jnrs stbox arosa... Self fitted 2 new springs, dampers , mounts and roll bar bushes...hour and a half all in on the drive but with everything new front camber reset by eye was way off, plus the tracking was previously know to be out...so made sure track rod ends were freed up and put into local garage......
£110..... 2 hours labour and ' needed to use the oxy' ..... Total and utter bs..... Everything was freed up and if the whole job too 15 mins I'd be surprised.... To compound the joy the steering wheel now a good 20 degrees off...
One of those rare times that a chain garage would have been a much better plan....
Lesson learned and customer last for good.....
£1
Had the inverse with my car - track rod ends looked original (8 years old) and had a receipt for the tracking the year before.tbox arosa... Self fitted 2 new springs, dampers , mounts and roll bar bushes...hour and a half all in on the drive but with everything new front camber reset by eye was way off, plus the tracking was previously know to be out...so made sure track rod ends were freed up and put into local garage......£110..... 2 hours labour and ' needed to use the oxy' ..... Total and utter bs..... Everything was freed up and if the whole job too 15 mins I'd be surprised.... To compound the joy the steering wheel now a good 20 degrees off...
One of those rare times that a chain garage would have been a much better plan....
Lesson learned and customer last for good.....
£1
Were so corroded to the inner arms I had to cut them off with an angle grinder. No way had they done anything.
texaxile said:
Happens a lot, a few bad apples etc. My 84 year old Dad went into a certain chain of tyre fitters whom "you can't get better than" according to their advertisment, for two new tyres.
Tyres replaced, balanced etc as asked (can't fault that) but a strong suggestion his brakes were faulty as the "mechanic" said they felt spongy going up the ramp and further inspection revealed really worn discs and pads on the front and he really should get them done for £460 that afternoon. He called me, I asked the service manager if he had the micrometer measurements for the disc wear and what tolerances they need to be on that model car , and also to double check because I was pretty sure they were replaced 11k miles ago, by me.
wkers.
The one and only time I used their services I had a puncture, just needed a simple repair doing, which they surprisingly did without trying to sell me another tyre. As they reversed the car out of the workshop and I got back in, the 'mechanic' told me that I needed new brake disks and pads all round as the current ones were dangerously worn, and if I came back the next day he'd replace them. I told him I didn't think they were, but he was adamant they were. 'You probably don't know much about cars, but I can tell just by looking at them they're not safe'. I somehow managed not to see red and go mad at him for such a condescending comment, but calmly reached over into the glove box and pulled out an invoice, which showed that I had new disks and pads fitted the week before - not only that, it had brake drums on the rear. He quickly changed his tune, 'oh, sorry, I was thinking of another car'. My car was the only car in there the whole time.Tyres replaced, balanced etc as asked (can't fault that) but a strong suggestion his brakes were faulty as the "mechanic" said they felt spongy going up the ramp and further inspection revealed really worn discs and pads on the front and he really should get them done for £460 that afternoon. He called me, I asked the service manager if he had the micrometer measurements for the disc wear and what tolerances they need to be on that model car , and also to double check because I was pretty sure they were replaced 11k miles ago, by me.
w
kers.Not a shop, it was Ebay. I await the usual nonsense now, but I've bought literally hundreds of things from Ebay without any problems, including car parts. They also have a normal on line website, carspares-direct.
As I've already said, my Mechanic has also purchased similar items before, without any problems from his many repeat customers.
Tim
As I've already said, my Mechanic has also purchased similar items before, without any problems from his many repeat customers.
Tim
Edited by catman on Wednesday 15th November 18:16
Edited by catman on Wednesday 15th November 18:44
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff