Rip off garages alive and well.
Discussion
Nanook said:
Can your £10 OBD scanner interrogate the ABS system on your car? Check the airbag system for faults? Do anything other than view some live engine related data and view some fault codes?
They're not comparable tbh.
Well, my EUR 50 software can do all that, and switch on pretty much every actuator on the car. It's not that hard. Picoscope is worth its weight in gold when finding a duff injector or coil. I've also got a natty little thing that injects an RF frequency into wires so you can trace where they have been eaten by mice. Invaluable on the Land Rover....They're not comparable tbh.
Shuvi McTupya said:
ETA, I am already having bad thoughts about this guy anyway, he took my car away and then discovered his supplier didn't have the part, the next day his supplier delivered the wrong part so a one day job has turned into three.
Not a good start, but would have been fixed by me supplying the part to begin with, and obviously would have saved me cash too..
You're definitely being stitched up. Unless you're in the back and beyond you can get the correct part within the hour for nearly anything. Complain to Clickmechanic about him.Not a good start, but would have been fixed by me supplying the part to begin with, and obviously would have saved me cash too..
Edited by Shuvi McTupya on Friday 17th November 12:39
Oh and an early Mini with release bearing like noises is nearly always the gearbox.
M_A_S said:
You're definitely being stitched up. Unless you're in the back and beyond you can get the correct part within the hour for nearly anything. Complain to Clickmechanic about him.
Oh and an early Mini with release bearing like noises is nearly always the gearbox.
It's ok, he wasn't charging me for the wasted time!Oh and an early Mini with release bearing like noises is nearly always the gearbox.
The price of the job stayed at £185, including the overpriced part.
Thanks for the tip about the mini, I will definitely get that checked out before I buy anything!
Is there a trick to tell which one it is? The car has no issues changing gear and pulls really well I haven't really driven it much but I noticed a bad down change which felt like the clutch hadn't engaged properly but I am not used to the car so I might not have pushed it in as far as it likes..
When driving normally and the clutch isn't engaged the noise is similar to putting a playing card in the spokes of your bicycle, it's not that loud but a constant high speed 'tick'.
Edited by Shuvi McTupya on Friday 17th November 18:20
Edited by Shuvi McTupya on Friday 17th November 18:59
Just to clear up the diagnostic charges. There's no single machine on the market that I know of that's 30k. The most expensive is about about 15k, but that won't do everything, so you need something else. And that won't do everything either, so you need something else, and before you know it, you've spend 50k on bits of kit, laptops, internet connections to VW, licences for Mercedes, technical support at 15 different manufacturers, etc etc.
I also know we've all got a £20 machine that will read engine codes. But that won't code a key, or replace and configure a BCM, or configure the alarm system or some other rubbish like that. And we all have VCDS - and it's great. I love it, and it's a really powerful bit of kit for VAG, and absolutely no good for a Vauxhall.
And we love the picoscope - it's really clever, and a fantastic diagnostic machine, but that won't configure the pump on a Transit.
And even then, to diagnose correctly, you need time, patience and knowledge, something that it's not always worth paying for if on 90% of the occasions the fault is a coil.
I also know we've all got a £20 machine that will read engine codes. But that won't code a key, or replace and configure a BCM, or configure the alarm system or some other rubbish like that. And we all have VCDS - and it's great. I love it, and it's a really powerful bit of kit for VAG, and absolutely no good for a Vauxhall.
And we love the picoscope - it's really clever, and a fantastic diagnostic machine, but that won't configure the pump on a Transit.
And even then, to diagnose correctly, you need time, patience and knowledge, something that it's not always worth paying for if on 90% of the occasions the fault is a coil.
dme123 said:
Nanook said:
xjay1337 said:
The other thing to note is that OBD2 is fairly standard.
Any cheap-o scan tool can get most of the information you need most of the time.
Of course certain things require more "complex" machinery but even so £30k is a joke for the exact reasons you mention.
Can your £10 OBD scanner interrogate the ABS system on your car? Check the airbag system for faults? Do anything other than view some live engine related data and view some fault codes?Any cheap-o scan tool can get most of the information you need most of the time.
Of course certain things require more "complex" machinery but even so £30k is a joke for the exact reasons you mention.
They're not comparable tbh.
One is vagcom (I'm sure you know what that can do).
One is a cheap generic OBD bluetooth reader which I keep in the car and that I use for resetting my engine light (secondary coolant pump has been removed but we haven't mapped it out yet).
Never not been able to do something with either tool.
Both will reset basic lights etc.
If I need more in depth analysis, logging or module changes/coding I use Vagcom.
The point I'm making is that most garages will just scan the car and see it says "MAF sensor p0402" (or whatever mode) and then chuck a MAF sensor on.
It's pretty rare that garages get into oscilloscopes and wave forming and whatever else.
I know a young guy who had problems with his gearbox. Very Noisy/Knocking or something
Took it to a "classic British small car" specialist who re-conned it and fitted it back for him. Told him 3mths/1000mile warranty. £1100 bill
2mth/800ish miles it started jumping out of reverse gear
Took it back. They took it out again, stripped it again and then charged him a further £300ish for a "warranty repair"
Everyone who heard the story told him he was being ripped off and he needed to refuse to pay and get Trading Standards involved. Some people offered their professional opinion for small claims court if it would help
His family are very wealthy. They were completely uninterested! Told him to pay the money (obviously they funded that) and not to worry about anything else. His attitude was 'I need to pay for this as otherwise they will be out of pocket for doing the job twice!' It came back with a throttle cable that would stick at 3Krpm! (bear in mind they'd dropped engine and box to do the work) He decided it was unrelated!
1 Month later it became difficult to get into 1st gear. He called the "specialist" again and they told him it would take a little bedding in. Which would be true if it done that when he got it back and not developed over time!
He STILL thinks this is a good specialist and he should be grateful. It's utterly Bizarre. We despaired and vowed not to offer our opinions anymore as it was maddening! How could anyone be Ok with being ripped off and then CONTINUE to give them work!
It's that attitude thats the reason why Rip Off Garages never seem to get their comeuppance. And the honest ones go to the wall
Took it to a "classic British small car" specialist who re-conned it and fitted it back for him. Told him 3mths/1000mile warranty. £1100 bill
2mth/800ish miles it started jumping out of reverse gear
Took it back. They took it out again, stripped it again and then charged him a further £300ish for a "warranty repair"
Everyone who heard the story told him he was being ripped off and he needed to refuse to pay and get Trading Standards involved. Some people offered their professional opinion for small claims court if it would helpHis family are very wealthy. They were completely uninterested! Told him to pay the money (obviously they funded that) and not to worry about anything else. His attitude was 'I need to pay for this as otherwise they will be out of pocket for doing the job twice!' It came back with a throttle cable that would stick at 3Krpm! (bear in mind they'd dropped engine and box to do the work) He decided it was unrelated!
1 Month later it became difficult to get into 1st gear. He called the "specialist" again and they told him it would take a little bedding in. Which would be true if it done that when he got it back and not developed over time!
He STILL thinks this is a good specialist and he should be grateful. It's utterly Bizarre. We despaired and vowed not to offer our opinions anymore as it was maddening! How could anyone be Ok with being ripped off and then CONTINUE to give them work!
It's that attitude thats the reason why Rip Off Garages never seem to get their comeuppance. And the honest ones go to the wall
Edited by Rich_W on Friday 17th November 21:50
xjay1337 said:
The point I'm making is that most garages will just scan the car and see it says "MAF sensor p0402" (or whatever mode) and then chuck a MAF sensor on.
It's pretty rare that garages get into oscilloscopes and wave forming and whatever else.
But this is an economic decision. If a MAF is (let's say) £30 and it takes an hour to check it, you're better off changing it rather than testing it. Does anyone test spark plugs - no, they just change them if they are suspect. It's pretty rare that garages get into oscilloscopes and wave forming and whatever else.
If the part is £2,000, there's a good argument to check it and get the scope out
bearman68 said:
Just to clear up the diagnostic charges. There's no single machine on the market that I know of that's 30k. The most expensive is about about 15k, but that won't do everything, so you need something else. And that won't do everything either, so you need something else, and before you know it, you've spend 50k on bits of kit, laptops, internet connections to VW, licences for Mercedes, technical support at 15 different manufacturers, etc etc.
I also know we've all got a £20 machine that will read engine codes. But that won't code a key, or replace and configure a BCM, or configure the alarm system or some other rubbish like that. And we all have VCDS - and it's great. I love it, and it's a really powerful bit of kit for VAG, and absolutely no good for a Vauxhall.
And we love the picoscope - it's really clever, and a fantastic diagnostic machine, but that won't configure the pump on a Transit.
And even then, to diagnose correctly, you need time, patience and knowledge, something that it's not always worth paying for if on 90% of the occasions the fault is a coil.
I guess this highlights the issue aswell, you have the equipment, subscriptions, understanding/skills and software able to work on many car marques, at £50/h, where as a dealer charges £90 and up but only specialise, surely those prices should be the other way round. I also know we've all got a £20 machine that will read engine codes. But that won't code a key, or replace and configure a BCM, or configure the alarm system or some other rubbish like that. And we all have VCDS - and it's great. I love it, and it's a really powerful bit of kit for VAG, and absolutely no good for a Vauxhall.
And we love the picoscope - it's really clever, and a fantastic diagnostic machine, but that won't configure the pump on a Transit.
And even then, to diagnose correctly, you need time, patience and knowledge, something that it's not always worth paying for if on 90% of the occasions the fault is a coil.
You offer a dealer like service for independant prices, where as many independants, back street garages, and even dealers, offer dealer prices without the dealer service.
bearman68 said:
But this is an economic decision. If a MAF is (let's say) £30 and it takes an hour to check it, you're better off changing it rather than testing it. Does anyone test spark plugs - no, they just change them if they are suspect.
If the part is £2,000, there's a good argument to check it and get the scope out
Agreed If the part is £2,000, there's a good argument to check it and get the scope out
While I think the good garages guide is a step in the right direction it still has problems too. I found a GG recommendation via their app. Headlight washer nozzle required replacement. I knew it could be done via the wheel well but didn’t have the tools at the time. Loaned to brother in law. Garage told me the bumper has to come off. Told him it didn’t and he disagreed saying he was sure it had to. £120 for the bumper removal and refit he quoted. I supplied the part. He requested to see the invoice for it to ensure it was genuine. Two hours later the car is ready. Charged me £70 ex VAT because he realised the bumper did not require removal. I had a feeling he knew I was right from the start. He knew the bumper would not need to be removed.
Thankfully when the other washer went. I took care of it myself.
Thankfully when the other washer went. I took care of it myself.
The worst one in our family has to be my dads gearbox. He is running a Ford Sierra automatical and the gearbox went into limp mode. The garage quoted £1500.
They didn’t touch the car. Each time we drove past it was in the same location. Cheap GSM tracker. CCTV footage from a shop friend opposite.
Done the work they said but £850 more to complete.
All went to trading standards. The garage randomly shut down and reopened a few weeks later under new ownership.
Dad got his £1500 back after a small claims court. Then took it to a Ford nut in Berkshire who fixed it for £700.
They didn’t touch the car. Each time we drove past it was in the same location. Cheap GSM tracker. CCTV footage from a shop friend opposite.
Done the work they said but £850 more to complete.
All went to trading standards. The garage randomly shut down and reopened a few weeks later under new ownership.
Dad got his £1500 back after a small claims court. Then took it to a Ford nut in Berkshire who fixed it for £700.
Emanresu said:
That’s not proper diagnostic work. That’s just scanning fault codes. My 5 year old son even knows how to plug in a Bluetooth dongle and pull them from torque app on a tablet.
Proper diagnostic work involves using the equipment to measure voltages, reading graphs, using maths to work out voltage drops and resistances over a length of wiring loom.
Sure, anyone can plug a computer in and read the codes but that’s not what the diagnostic charge is for.
I used a recommended garage in Leatherhead that deals with Landrover’s and Jags, when my Evoque’s abs sensor failed. I don’t have a reader so didn’t know which wheel it was to do myself and didn’t have time as we were going away in the car a few days later. Proper diagnostic work involves using the equipment to measure voltages, reading graphs, using maths to work out voltage drops and resistances over a length of wiring loom.
Sure, anyone can plug a computer in and read the codes but that’s not what the diagnostic charge is for.
The guy charged an hour to diagnose and an hour to change the part. I’d been to another garage before where they diagnosed it free (but couldn’t book in as were too busy) so I knew what the fault was.
was disgusted and have never been ripped off like that before. Code took 2 minutes to read. Never again.
So my new scan tool has just cost 4k.
It's then 800 a year for updates and subscription on year 3 onwards.
What should I charge for a code read in PH world?
In regards the Land Rover above did he code read? Or did he test drive it with live data running then check the wiring and ABS ring?
Two different things.
It's then 800 a year for updates and subscription on year 3 onwards.
What should I charge for a code read in PH world?
In regards the Land Rover above did he code read? Or did he test drive it with live data running then check the wiring and ABS ring?
Two different things.
Daughter took her car to the well known chain of ‘fix everything with the performing fitters,’ for it’s MOT. Rubber bellows on anti-roll bar(s) rod ends split. Looked more like fitter pulled them apart. All 4 the same ! Clip on outer CV joint rubber bellows missing! ( wasn’t 6 months ago, and they’re stainless, so don’t rust and fall off). Rear wheel bearings worn and noisy. The quote? +£800 !! Did it myself. New rubber bellows for anti roll bar joints plus new CV bellows clip just under £10. Nothing wrong with rear wheel bearings, just some rusty bits rubbing, which a good clean up cured.
Me and the missus went out last night...
Had an very agreeable steak dinner, some wine and enjoyed the fact we were in a restaurant and didn't have to do the dishes... then the b
ds gave me the bills, £125.00. I immediately told the waiter who'd served us all evening that I got buy some Aberdeen Angus steak from Aldi for under a tenner and the veg was nothing more than a few quid, add a bottle of wine for six quid and the wife could have knocked up a dinner. Seemingly the steak we had was hand sourced, 28 day matured from the local specialist butcher and prepared by a chef with many awards to his name and years of experience but I was having none of that and told them you can get 26 burgers from Farmfoods for £1.99.
Had an very agreeable steak dinner, some wine and enjoyed the fact we were in a restaurant and didn't have to do the dishes... then the b
ds gave me the bills, £125.00. I immediately told the waiter who'd served us all evening that I got buy some Aberdeen Angus steak from Aldi for under a tenner and the veg was nothing more than a few quid, add a bottle of wine for six quid and the wife could have knocked up a dinner. Seemingly the steak we had was hand sourced, 28 day matured from the local specialist butcher and prepared by a chef with many awards to his name and years of experience but I was having none of that and told them you can get 26 burgers from Farmfoods for £1.99.Davie said:
Me and the missus went out last night...
Had an very agreeable steak dinner, some wine and enjoyed the fact we were in a restaurant and didn't have to do the dishes... then the bds gave me the bills, £125.00. I immediately told the waiter who'd served us all evening that I got buy some Aberdeen Angus steak from Aldi for under a tenner and the veg was nothing more than a few quid, add a bottle of wine for six quid and the wife could have knocked up a dinner. Seemingly the steak we had was hand sourced, 28 day matured from the local specialist butcher and prepared by a chef with many awards to his name and years of experience but I was having none of that and told them you can get 26 burgers from Farmfoods for £1.99.
Had an very agreeable steak dinner, some wine and enjoyed the fact we were in a restaurant and didn't have to do the dishes... then the b
ds gave me the bills, £125.00. I immediately told the waiter who'd served us all evening that I got buy some Aberdeen Angus steak from Aldi for under a tenner and the veg was nothing more than a few quid, add a bottle of wine for six quid and the wife could have knocked up a dinner. Seemingly the steak we had was hand sourced, 28 day matured from the local specialist butcher and prepared by a chef with many awards to his name and years of experience but I was having none of that and told them you can get 26 burgers from Farmfoods for £1.99.
Davie said:
Me and the missus went out last night...
Had an very agreeable steak dinner, some wine and enjoyed the fact we were in a restaurant and didn't have to do the dishes... then the bds gave me the bills, £125.00. I immediately told the waiter who'd served us all evening that I got buy some Aberdeen Angus steak from Aldi for under a tenner and the veg was nothing more than a few quid, add a bottle of wine for six quid and the wife could have knocked up a dinner. Seemingly the steak we had was hand sourced, 28 day matured from the local specialist butcher and prepared by a chef with many awards to his name and years of experience but I was having none of that and told them you can get 26 burgers from Farmfoods for £1.99.
Well said!! Restaraunts in the UK are a huge rip off too, it costs a fraction of the price to go out and eat in most of the world...but start your own thread Had an very agreeable steak dinner, some wine and enjoyed the fact we were in a restaurant and didn't have to do the dishes... then the b
ds gave me the bills, £125.00. I immediately told the waiter who'd served us all evening that I got buy some Aberdeen Angus steak from Aldi for under a tenner and the veg was nothing more than a few quid, add a bottle of wine for six quid and the wife could have knocked up a dinner. Seemingly the steak we had was hand sourced, 28 day matured from the local specialist butcher and prepared by a chef with many awards to his name and years of experience but I was having none of that and told them you can get 26 burgers from Farmfoods for £1.99.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff