Rip off garages alive and well.

[Shuvi McTupya]

Emanresu said:

Printing a few fault codes, that’s nice. Can you also print out useful data like live MAF, MAP, long and short term fuel trims across the Rev range at various loads, do relative compression tests and interpret all the data?

I’ve had customers come into the garage and tell me to replace things like crank and cam sensors because their toy OBD reader said a fault code was logged. After offering the service of a proper diagnosis, the customer usually insists on changing the part they diagnosed themselves rather than spend £50-60 on a proper diagnosis. A lot of the time, it has turned out to be something completely different which costs a lot more in the long run including the price of a part that wasn’t faulty but the customer insisted was changed.

Sometimes it’s better just to stand back and let a professional take care of it from start to finish.

As far as I am aware, yes my software can do all of that stuff and even send codes to the ECU and 'activate' parts that need 'activating etc, but no I don't have the technical knowledge to interpret it all, otherwise I wouldn't need a mechanic at all. I would be a mechanic.

If i am happy to ask a mechanic to change a specific part at an hourly rate, they should say " Thanks for your custom, but I can't guarantee that this will fix the issue as I haven't diagnosed the problem myself"

Isn't it a bit like asking for decorating quotes but telling them you have already done the prep work.
The decorator should be happy to do the painting at his normal rate, but warn you that it might not look perfect and he isn't going to go back and fix your work for free.

Edited by Shuvi McTupya on Wednesday 15th November 08:45

[Shuvi McTupya]

Mound Dawg said:

We have more problems with people buying their own parts for garages to fit than anything else because they either know Fanny Adams about cars of just guess when faced with alternatives.

Recent example (yesterday). Owner bought a carb gasket set and asked us to send it to the garage doing the work. Garage rings, this carburettor gasket set you've sent is wrong, checked part number, yup it's a Weber carb set. Yeah, but this car's got Dellortos.

Problem now is he's opened it and the gaskets have got oily paw prints on them so I don't want them back. So he's going to have to buy the correct set as he's the one who assumed that they were Webers.

100% mark up right there.

And who pays for the mechanic's wasted time if he rocks up and can't do the job because you bought the wrong oil filter?

Edited by Mound Dawg on Wednesday 15th November 07:26

That is all the customers responsibility and of course he should pay for the correct parts, and pay the mechanic something for his wasted time.

[Shuvi McTupya]

Nanook said:

I'll be honest, this does bug the fk out of me. You think they should take the car in, stick it up on the ramp, diagnose the fault, phone around and source a part, and then tell you all of this for free when you decide to go elsewhere?

Yes, it is called giving an estimate. All business have to price jobs up and customers don't normally expect to pay for a quote.

I used to fit window blinds and generally spent more time talking to the customer about options and measuring up and getting prices etc than I did fitting blinds.

My pricing was based on 100% mark up on the product but fitting and everything else was 'free'.

Having said that, I did go bust

Edited by Shuvi McTupya on Wednesday 15th November 08:54

[steveo3002]

Shuvi McTupya said:

Isn't it a bit like asking for decorating quotes but telling them you have already done the prep work.
The decorator should be happy to do the painting at his normal rate, but warn you that it might not look perfect and he isn't going to go back and fix your work for free.

Edited by Shuvi McTupya on Wednesday 15th November 08:45

and then everyone points out the bad job and bad mouths who did it , customer will forget to mention they begged for a cheapo job and the worker looks like the bodger

Edited by steveo3002 on Wednesday 15th November 08:58

[Emanresu]

Shuvi McTupya said:

Emanresu said:

Printing a few fault codes, that’s nice. Can you also print out useful data like live MAF, MAP, long and short term fuel trims across the Rev range at various loads, do relative compression tests and interpret all the data?

I’ve had customers come into the garage and tell me to replace things like crank and cam sensors because their toy OBD reader said a fault code was logged. After offering the service of a proper diagnosis, the customer usually insists on changing the part they diagnosed themselves rather than spend £50-60 on a proper diagnosis. A lot of the time, it has turned out to be something completely different which costs a lot more in the long run including the price of a part that wasn’t faulty but the customer insisted was changed.

Sometimes it’s better just to stand back and let a professional take care of it from start to finish.

As far as I am aware, yes my software can do all of that stuff and even send codes to the ECU and 'activate' parts that need 'activating etc, but no I don't have the technical knowledge to interpret it all, otherwise I wouldn't need a mechanic at all. I would be a mechanic.

If i am happy to ask a mechanic to change a specific part at an hourly rate, they should say " Thanks for your custom, but I can't guarantee that this will fix the issue as I haven't diagnosed the problem myself"

Isn't it a bit like asking for decorating quotes but telling them you have already done the prep work.
The decorator should be happy to do the painting at his normal rate, but warn you that it might not look perfect and he isn't going to go back and fix your work for free.

Edited by Shuvi McTupya on Wednesday 15th November 08:45

What I’m trying to say is that printouts aren’t always useful. Sometimes you need to see live data on the screen with graphical representation, ie line graphs etc. I’m real time. DTCs can point you in a general direction but they don’t tell you the underlying cause of a problem.

[Shuvi McTupya]

Emanresu said:

What I’m trying to say is that printouts aren’t always useful. Sometimes you need to see live data on the screen with graphical representation, ie line graphs etc. I’m real time. DTCs can point you in a general direction but they don’t tell you the underlying cause of a problem.

I have no issue with what tools a mechanic decides to use but when I get the bill I don't expect to see:

Hourly rate:£70
Tools used:
Spanner £5
Screwdriver £5
Computer £80
Ramps £50
Parts: 100% mark up

[coldel]

I am mixed on this debate. Like most nationwide businesses I am sure Dealerships have financial targets they must make to report into HO, so not only to make a profit, but to be seen to be growing the business/keeping up with their peers in the area so on and so forth. They are unlikely to achieve growth through selling cars as on the whole car sales are generally steady outside the new registration months. I would also expect they are forced to purchase parts from 'approved' sellers they are given? Could all be wrong but suspect there is some truth in it? Anyway whatever they price you if you ask them for a quote isn't a rip off, its their price and you can take it or leave it. The internet nowadays gives people a great way to get benchmarks on price and shop around easily.

What is a rip off is behaviour such as up-selling against parts that do not need replacing that customers are unlikely to be knowledgeable about and the like and high pressure selling against vulnerable customers again for stuff that does not need work on. And this can happen anywhere not just at dealerships.

I presume most people on the thread have bought a coffee or the like from a coffee chain for £3+ and thought nothing of it? Thats a paper cup, with a spoonful of coffee in it and hot water, £3? How much do parts+ labour cost for that? ;-)

[stevesingo]

Friends E93 M3 failed to start after standing for 2 weeks. The symptoms were the same as a previous non-start event which turned out to be the Car Access System (CAS) unit which was replaced a year ago. Stuck 100miles from home, he called BMW Assist (BMW Assist are part of BMW UK and not affiliated to a franchise) who came out and ran a diagnostic. Sure enough the fault code showed the CAS unit to be faulty again. The BMW Assist tech checked the multiplug connector and checked for water ingress. He pointed out to my friend that there was no evidence of after ingress, to the point where the tech showed him the dust on the unit, indicating that it was dry. The Tech said that as the part was dealer fitted and genuine, it would be covered by warranty, so the car was recovered to a local dealer along with the BMW Assist diagnostic report.

The dealer, tells friend they will run another diagnostic and get back to him. A couple of days later the dealer calls and says the diagnostic indicates a wiring issue, and not a CAS unit fault and this would require 3hr of diagnostic work to trace the fault at £100+ per hour +VAT, he is without a car so says crack on. At this point he asks my advice and I tell him that the only reason there would be a wiring fault is if the loom has been damaged by accident or other work being badly carried out. Unless there is water in the connectors.

Another couple of days goes by and the dealer calls saying the wiring is fine and the fault is with the CAS unit due to water ingress and that the dealer has disconnected the CAS unit as it is only used for touch entry or some such (I believe it is related to the alarm immobiliser) and he has the bill to pay for the recovery (which he was prepared to take on the chin) and now the diagnostic. My friend calls me and is a little miffed, so I tell him to get hold of BMW Assist and get the report from them which states that checks were made for water ingress and there was no evidence.

He is now taking it up with BMW UK as the BMW Assist tech called him back and agreed that there was no water and these types of 2nd diagnosis are common from the franchised dealers.

The questions he has are;

1, Why was the BMW Assist diagnostic disregarded?
2, When the 2nd diagnostic came up with a wiring issue, why did it take 3hrs of diagnostic time to identify water ingress?
3, Where is the water coming from, when there was no evidence of water on initial diagnosis by BMW Assist?

IMO, the dealer has run a diagnostic and interpreted the result differently to the BMW Assist Tech. They have then gone down a blind alley due to this misinterpretation and wasted 3hrs of labour which they don't want to pay for themselves. They are now inventing some cock and bull so the customer picks up the tab.

This is currently ongoing, so we will see...

[Emanresu]

Shuvi McTupya said:

I have no issue with what tools a mechanic decides to use but when I get the bill I don't expect to see:

Hourly rate:£70
Tools used:
Spanner £5
Screwdriver £5
Computer £80
Ramps £50
Parts: 100% mark up

Tools cost money and they have to be paid for somehow so the mechanic can make some profit. Some diagnostic computers run into many thousands. The training to use them to their full potential is also expensive. Finding a canbus fault could take hours and these hours have to be paid for. If mechanics and techs didn’t get paid for fault finding work, they would stick to easy money jobs like oil and pad changes.

[Shuvi McTupya]

Nanook said:

I disagree. You're talking about a garage diagnosing the problem for you for free, so you can get the fix done elsewhere for cheaper.

That's not quite the same as saying "I want some blinds, what will you charge me"

Sorry but it exactly the same, I am giving them my time for free in the hopes that I can provide a service and product at a price the customer is prepared to pay.

They then take that info to my competition who undercuts me by £50.

[Short Grain]

mac96 said:

With those guys I think it depends on which branch you get.
I have used my local twice in the last year or so. First- defective aircon. They tried to regas it, didn't work, spent maybe 20 mins on it- charged me nothing.
Second time- screw in back tyre. Made no attempt to sell me new tyre, fixed in half an hour for £25. Ok I might have got it done a little cheaper somewhere else, but they are 400 yards away and I was in a hurry so happy.

Had the same with front tyre. Branch a mile away, £25, 40mins and free coffee while I waited. Didn't push anything. Every ramp was full and people waiting!

Used to use a local Indy. Little 'scruffy' premises, drive in one side, tyres fixed / repaired, balanced etc. Free coffee whilst waiting, excellent service and prices as the boss would always do a deal! They were always busy!

Then they moved across the road into a new unit. Prices went through the roof, and no deals, ever, at all, don't ask!!

All my mates used them before they moved. Nobody used them after!! Word went round and the silly prat went under within 18 months! Sad really.

[Integroo]

Section 8 said:

My snotter Primera farted a hole through it's back box the other week. I called a local garage chain to see what they could do and after much sucking of teeth and dramatic ooohing and ahhhhing came up with a comedy price of £137 fking British pounds! Utter pisstake.

1 call later to a local exhaust fitter i had the same part for £42. Places like that just prey on the non car savvy public who are sadly willing to pay out.

I was recently quoted 485 quid for a new backbox ...

[Shuvi McTupya]

Emanresu said:

Tools cost money and they have to be paid for somehow so the mechanic can make some profit. Some diagnostic computers run into many thousands. The training to use them to their full potential is also expensive. Finding a canbus fault could take hours and these hours have to be paid for. If mechanics and techs didn’t get paid for fault finding work, they would stick to easy money jobs like oil and pad changes.

In my opinion that should be covered by the hourly rate. They charge £70+ an hour BECAUSE they have the tools and experience.
If buying the tools they need to carry out the jobs they are being asked to do is not cost effective then that is another issue.

[steveo3002]

imo the diagnostic thing has gotten to be an easy earner ...fine if the car has random issues then it might need hours looking at , but £80 to to point out the obvious is taking the wee

[Shuvi McTupya]

Integroo said:

I was recently quoted 485 quid for a new backbox ...

I just bought a Mini Cooper with 8 months MOT for about that much..

It does need a clutch though , which will be about £4000 if they need to use any tools...

[joeshaw123]

Shuvi McTupya said:

In my opinion that should be covered by the hourly rate. They charge £70+ an hour BECAUSE they have the tools and experience.
If buying the tools they need to carry out the jobs they are being asked to do is not cost effective then that is another issue.

100% this. Tools to do the job are factored in to your 'overhead recovery'. If the customer is paying for tooling, that tooling should then belong to them.
At least it does in my line of work - if we need to produce or procure special tooling to manufacture something for a customer, that tooling then belongs to them. We won't use it on anything but their components, and they can have the tooling if they request it, no questions asked.

[Integroo]

Integroo said:

Section 8 said:

My snotter Primera farted a hole through it's back box the other week. I called a local garage chain to see what they could do and after much sucking of teeth and dramatic ooohing and ahhhhing came up with a comedy price of £137 fking British pounds! Utter pisstake.

1 call later to a local exhaust fitter i had the same part for £42. Places like that just prey on the non car savvy public who are sadly willing to pay out.

I was recently quoted 485 quid for a new backbox ...

I should have added when I baulked at this price I was charged a £21 diagnostic fee with a promise they'd deduct it off the total if I came back and got the work carried out by them. In another garage today who ball park estimated at 80 to 150.

[Shuvi McTupya]

Nanook said:

They take what to your competitor? A price? That's not the same as diagnosing a fault, not even close.

If it was, you'd be correct, and we wouldn't be talking about this.

Not just the price, I go through all the available products and give them advice etc so they are armed with lots more info. I also made the mistake when I first started out of giving them the measurements of all the blinds, and then they would just go and order them online and get a mate to fit them..
You live and learn

[jamoor]

I am not a qualified mechanic, I haven't been trained by anyone to be one either.

I do have a fully equipped workshop and do all of my work on my car myself. I can say being a mechanic isn't exactly a skilled job. They do however have overheads that need to be recovered but charging £120ph is scandalous for the work they do. Even £20 is too much

[stuckmojo]

It depends. I am more than happy to pay my specialists and not negotiate hard as they have the experience and know the cars inside out, way better than I ever could, possibly better than main dealer - though mine are niche, slightly older cars.

I don't count the pennies in their pockets as I know and they know that I will be back for more work if satisfied and will talk about them in the owners' circles and that is important.