Rip off garages alive and well.
Discussion
I drive old cars - one shed & one I care about - so do most maintenance myself. However I don't mind paying professionals for stuff I can't do myself.
I just had a damaged cylinder head welded for my sheddy van - by a professional who also re-seated the exhaust valves. However I did all the grunt work of getting the head off and stripped, and then putting it all back together.
This saved me a lot of money, but if anything goes wrong, I know that I have no comeback from the head specialist - and I'm fine with that.
Ditto parts - I will buy OEM stuff online for the good car myself, but if I order the wrong bit, that's my lookout. Other parts are sourced through a friend in the trade, but it helps him keep his volume up, so we both benefit.
Professional mechanics have a business to run, and are entitled to charge for their expertise : you can often save a lot of money doing it yourself, but there's no comeback if things go wrong.
I just had a damaged cylinder head welded for my sheddy van - by a professional who also re-seated the exhaust valves. However I did all the grunt work of getting the head off and stripped, and then putting it all back together.
This saved me a lot of money, but if anything goes wrong, I know that I have no comeback from the head specialist - and I'm fine with that.
Ditto parts - I will buy OEM stuff online for the good car myself, but if I order the wrong bit, that's my lookout. Other parts are sourced through a friend in the trade, but it helps him keep his volume up, so we both benefit.
Professional mechanics have a business to run, and are entitled to charge for their expertise : you can often save a lot of money doing it yourself, but there's no comeback if things go wrong.
AW111 said:
I drive old cars - one shed & one I care about - so do most maintenance myself. However I don't mind paying professionals for stuff I can't do myself.
I just had a damaged cylinder head welded for my sheddy van - by a professional who also re-seated the exhaust valves. However I did all the grunt work of getting the head off and stripped, and then putting it all back together.
This saved me a lot of money, but if anything goes wrong, I know that I have no comeback from the head specialist - and I'm fine with that.
Ditto parts - I will buy OEM stuff online for the good car myself, but if I order the wrong bit, that's my lookout. Other parts are sourced through a friend in the trade, but it helps him keep his volume up, so we both benefit.
Professional mechanics have a business to run, and are entitled to charge for their expertise : you can often save a lot of money doing it yourself, but there's no comeback if things go wrong.
Well saidI just had a damaged cylinder head welded for my sheddy van - by a professional who also re-seated the exhaust valves. However I did all the grunt work of getting the head off and stripped, and then putting it all back together.
This saved me a lot of money, but if anything goes wrong, I know that I have no comeback from the head specialist - and I'm fine with that.
Ditto parts - I will buy OEM stuff online for the good car myself, but if I order the wrong bit, that's my lookout. Other parts are sourced through a friend in the trade, but it helps him keep his volume up, so we both benefit.
Professional mechanics have a business to run, and are entitled to charge for their expertise : you can often save a lot of money doing it yourself, but there's no comeback if things go wrong.
I don't think it's a rip off to charge a labour at a given rate - the garage is a business and you're welcome to take your car elsewhere if the fee is too high.
Charging people for unnecessary work though, that's a straight up con and shouldn't happen, but does. That's what this thread should be about, not "oh my dealer charges £100 ph to change oil".
Charging people for unnecessary work though, that's a straight up con and shouldn't happen, but does. That's what this thread should be about, not "oh my dealer charges £100 ph to change oil".
Flibble said:
I don't think it's a rip off to charge a labour at a given rate - the garage is a business and you're welcome to take your car elsewhere if the fee is too high.
Charging people for unnecessary work though, that's a straight up con and shouldn't happen, but does. That's what this thread should be about, not "oh my dealer charges £100 ph to change oil".
Absolutely. As I mentioned on page 4 there is no simple way of looking at the business because all the overheads have to be covered not just the cost of the mechanics salary. A business can charge whatever they like, if they make money and stay in business then fine. But if they are charging for work that doesn't need to be done and preying on 'vulnerable' customers then that is unethical and wrong.Charging people for unnecessary work though, that's a straight up con and shouldn't happen, but does. That's what this thread should be about, not "oh my dealer charges £100 ph to change oil".
Ok so back to 'click mechanic' for a second..
Guy was supposed to show up yesterday but couldn't come out as his workshop door was f
ked and he couldn't get cars in or out.
He just came to collect the car, he is obviously a one man outfit, seems friendly and knowledgeable and has taken the car away and says he will bring it back today.
His labour rates are £35 an hour and he has no issue fitting customers parts for them, just with no warrantee. He also advised that he will not charge anymore to replace the whole clutch than he would charge to replace the clutch release bearing So it looks like I will order a clutch kit and pay him approx £200 to fit it.
That seems fair, just have to see what his work is like .
Guy was supposed to show up yesterday but couldn't come out as his workshop door was f
ked and he couldn't get cars in or out.He just came to collect the car, he is obviously a one man outfit, seems friendly and knowledgeable and has taken the car away and says he will bring it back today.
His labour rates are £35 an hour and he has no issue fitting customers parts for them, just with no warrantee. He also advised that he will not charge anymore to replace the whole clutch than he would charge to replace the clutch release bearing So it looks like I will order a clutch kit and pay him approx £200 to fit it.
That seems fair, just have to see what his work is like .
Edited by Shuvi McTupya on Wednesday 15th November 11:57
Emanresu said:
Do you really think you buy a diagnostic computer at £1,000 and that’s the end of it.
Something at £1,000 will be incredibly basic and become outdated in no time.
Proper diagnostic gear with scope and probe functions costs many many thousands of pounds. Then you have to buy updates for it regularly as the manufacturer updates their software and brings out new models of car. Then you need hours of training to use the new software and more training as new technology is introduced in cars. It’s impossible to get your investment back unless you charge it to the car you’re using it on.
Maybe back in the 70s or 80s, you learned to fix cars and that was the end of it, you were a mechanic. Now it is a never ending cycle of training and buying new tools.
If I have something in the garage, say a Porsche that I need a special tool for, which I may end up only using 3-4 times, I can’t add it on to the price of your oil change or before you know it, I’ll be charging everyone £250-300 an hour for labour.
Yeah I can't really argue with that, I do understand that times have changed.Something at £1,000 will be incredibly basic and become outdated in no time.
Proper diagnostic gear with scope and probe functions costs many many thousands of pounds. Then you have to buy updates for it regularly as the manufacturer updates their software and brings out new models of car. Then you need hours of training to use the new software and more training as new technology is introduced in cars. It’s impossible to get your investment back unless you charge it to the car you’re using it on.
Maybe back in the 70s or 80s, you learned to fix cars and that was the end of it, you were a mechanic. Now it is a never ending cycle of training and buying new tools.
If I have something in the garage, say a Porsche that I need a special tool for, which I may end up only using 3-4 times, I can’t add it on to the price of your oil change or before you know it, I’ll be charging everyone £250-300 an hour for labour.
I suppose it is one thing when you are putting a £50k car in for work to be done and another thing entirely when you are just trying to keep a £2k car legal.
It all starts to seem a but much when you have a perfectly road worthy car with an airbag fault (for example ) that costs more than the value of the car and you have to fix it but if the car was never fitted with them it is perfectly legal to drive. (Sorry, off topic and nothing to do with garage rip offs)
As you say, cars and the industry have moved on, everything these days seems to be geared towards everyone owning new cars and ideally any work is carried out under warranty.
Garage (which I mostly trust?!) - Quoted £630 to replace the turbo because the wastegate is stuck.
Me - 20 minutes finding where the hell the actual wastegate is(!), 5 minutes removing the air intake house to get access, 5 minutes with a screwdriver levering against the actuator connector thingy, 20 minute italian tune-up on the way home to clear carbon deposit.
= No more stuck wastegate and £630 still in my pocket.
I'm not crowing too loud because it might stick again at some point, but I'm a bit annoyed they jumped straight to the 'needs new turbo' without even trying.
I don't mind paying a bit extra for the parts, because I know their price on parts will be subsidising their labour rate to an extent, but there's no need to manufacture needless work.
Me - 20 minutes finding where the hell the actual wastegate is(!), 5 minutes removing the air intake house to get access, 5 minutes with a screwdriver levering against the actuator connector thingy, 20 minute italian tune-up on the way home to clear carbon deposit.
= No more stuck wastegate and £630 still in my pocket.
I'm not crowing too loud because it might stick again at some point, but I'm a bit annoyed they jumped straight to the 'needs new turbo' without even trying.
I don't mind paying a bit extra for the parts, because I know their price on parts will be subsidising their labour rate to an extent, but there's no need to manufacture needless work.
The problem with this entire thread can be summed up by the below
• People on here are knowledgable (to varying degrees) about cars and parts prices. Some even have laptop diagnostic tools.
• They take that price "knowledge", as well as the fault codes, to a garage, starting from a position of suspecting a rip-off. They expect as near to the cost of fitting themselves as possible.
• Garages on the other hand are often terrible at pricing in a simple for their services. Providing breakdowns as detailed as tool costs can be useful to some, but also brings out the "I'm not paying again and again for your tool" etc. They'd benefit from better, simpler pricing that is service-based and not parts and costs focused.
• People on here are knowledgable (to varying degrees) about cars and parts prices. Some even have laptop diagnostic tools.
• They take that price "knowledge", as well as the fault codes, to a garage, starting from a position of suspecting a rip-off. They expect as near to the cost of fitting themselves as possible.
• Garages on the other hand are often terrible at pricing in a simple for their services. Providing breakdowns as detailed as tool costs can be useful to some, but also brings out the "I'm not paying again and again for your tool" etc. They'd benefit from better, simpler pricing that is service-based and not parts and costs focused.
Emanresu said:
That’s not proper diagnostic work. That’s just scanning fault codes. My 5 year old son even knows how to plug in a Bluetooth dongle and pull them from torque app on a tablet.
Proper diagnostic work involves using the equipment to measure voltages, reading graphs, using maths to work out voltage drops and resistances over a length of wiring loom.
Sure, anyone can plug a computer in and read the codes but that’s not what the diagnostic charge is for.
Yes, being able to understand the codes and actually do stuff with them is another thing.Proper diagnostic work involves using the equipment to measure voltages, reading graphs, using maths to work out voltage drops and resistances over a length of wiring loom.
Sure, anyone can plug a computer in and read the codes but that’s not what the diagnostic charge is for.
I can just scan the car or I can actually investigate - That means looking and logging live data from the hundreds of sensors and datapoints within the engine.
I'm not an expert by any means, I can do most tasks that I'd need to do (eg suspension, engine servicing etc), and I have some friends whom I can turn to when it's outside of my knowledge. I would probably consider most hands-on car enthusiasts to be of similar level to myself. (perhaps a 4/10)
What is the diagnostic charge? Because I know my local VW dealer charges £85+vat for LITERALLY a diagnostic printout/scan and further diagnostic work is charged at an hourly rate.
If I / or a friend used VAGCOM to scan someones car which has an ESP fault and shows as being g201 brake pressure sensor fault and looking at the measuring blocks for the abs pump and find duff readings and confirm this as a faulty ABS pump (typical mk5 golf issue for example) why should they then have to pay £80+ at a "main dealer" agent when their software will give them exactly the same fault.
By all means check it but it's a bit out of order to charge the customer in that scenario if they come armed with information.
The double edged sword from that is that sometimes customers come in who are literally clueless but like to think that they aren't , and you have to do double the work.
It is a tricky one to get right by all means.
Recently has a spring snap on jnrs stbox arosa... Self fitted 2 new springs, dampers , mounts and roll bar bushes...hour and a half all in on the drive but with everything new front camber reset by eye was way off, plus the tracking was previously know to be out...so made sure track rod ends were freed up and put into local garage......
£110..... 2 hours labour and ' needed to use the oxy' ..... Total and utter bs..... Everything was freed up and if the whole job too 15 mins I'd be surprised.... To compound the joy the steering wheel now a good 20 degrees off...
One of those rare times that a chain garage would have been a much better plan....
Lesson learned and customer last for good.....
£1
tbox arosa... Self fitted 2 new springs, dampers , mounts and roll bar bushes...hour and a half all in on the drive but with everything new front camber reset by eye was way off, plus the tracking was previously know to be out...so made sure track rod ends were freed up and put into local garage......£110..... 2 hours labour and ' needed to use the oxy' ..... Total and utter bs..... Everything was freed up and if the whole job too 15 mins I'd be surprised.... To compound the joy the steering wheel now a good 20 degrees off...
One of those rare times that a chain garage would have been a much better plan....
Lesson learned and customer last for good.....
£1
Nanook said:
joeshaw123 said:
Shuvi McTupya said:
In my opinion that should be covered by the hourly rate. They charge £70+ an hour BECAUSE they have the tools and experience.
If buying the tools they need to carry out the jobs they are being asked to do is not cost effective then that is another issue.
100% this. Tools to do the job are factored in to your 'overhead recovery'. If the customer is paying for tooling, that tooling should then belong to them. If buying the tools they need to carry out the jobs they are being asked to do is not cost effective then that is another issue.
At least it does in my line of work - if we need to produce or procure special tooling to manufacture something for a customer, that tooling then belongs to them. We won't use it on anything but their components, and they can have the tooling if they request it, no questions asked.
So now your local garage want £90/hour to change your pads and discs, the reason being he needs to cover the cost of all his computing and diagnostic equipment.
We'd then have threads and threads of people complaining that they just want an oil change, brakes, bushes, whatever, and they're being charged a fortune.
I think part of the issue is that once upon a time, cars were all broadly the same level of complexity, and being a lowly spanner-monkey grunt type would enable you to change pads and discs right up to engine removal/replacement etc.
Nowadays with increased complexity, higher pressure fuel systems, multiple turbos, dual clutches, tighter packaging, control modules for every different system within a car - the list goes on - greater skill is required.
I don't think a one-hourly-rate-suits-all approach is the right way to go about things any more. I don't think anyone begrudges a £30-40/hr rate for basic work on basic cars, when overheads for staff/premises/simple tools are taken into account. But on the flip side when a £50k, 6 cylinder, twin turbo, direct injection SUV with adaptive this and comfort that, won't start, won't lock and is lit up like a Christmas tree - I wouldn't be surprised to pay double or more.
A more dynamic way of covering costs may be the way forward? And I'm sure people always value transparency of pricing - if you're honest and competitive with pricing surely that brings people back?
I agree. A lot of problems arise because of a lack of communication between the garage and the customer. We take time to explain our diagnositic procedures to our customers, what costs are involved and we try to keep them updated as the job progresses. We still get it wrong sometimes though.
Emanresu said:
That’s not proper diagnostic work. That’s just scanning fault codes. My 5 year old son even knows how to plug in a Bluetooth dongle and pull them from torque app on a tablet.
Proper diagnostic work involves using the equipment to measure voltages, reading graphs, using maths to work out voltage drops and resistances over a length of wiring loom.
Sure, anyone can plug a computer in and read the codes but that’s not what the diagnostic charge is for.
Most places charge £80 for someone to plug a computer in and read the codes - no one is going over the wiring loom with a 'scope for £80. Proper diagnostic work involves using the equipment to measure voltages, reading graphs, using maths to work out voltage drops and resistances over a length of wiring loom.
Sure, anyone can plug a computer in and read the codes but that’s not what the diagnostic charge is for.
I think there are three issues here.
Firstly we have some garages who look at an unsophisticated customer and tell them their flux capacitor needs replacement urgently. These are verging on criminal, certainly fraudulent.
Secondly you have garages doing hard work and charging for it. No issue here. My local place will change an Alfa V6 cambelt for £600 or so. Having done it myself (twice), it's a lot of money, but its also a b
d job. Even without the overheads of a garage, I'd be rather unwilling to change some punters cambelt for £600 on a Saturday....Finally you have garages charging megabucks for doing sod all. The old £280 oil change and 956 point check. Yes, its a rip off, but its part of the price of having a warranty - if you're into that sort of thing, then lube up.
Shuvi McTupya said:
Nanook said:
I disagree. You're talking about a garage diagnosing the problem for you for free, so you can get the fix done elsewhere for cheaper.
That's not quite the same as saying "I want some blinds, what will you charge me"
Sorry but it exactly the same, I am giving them my time for free in the hopes that I can provide a service and product at a price the customer is prepared to pay.That's not quite the same as saying "I want some blinds, what will you charge me"
They then take that info to my competition who undercuts me by £50.
A quick visual inspection of something by a garage, maybe. But to spend time doing a diagnostic check, then drilling down further with wiring tests etc, why shouldn’t they charge a diag fee?
itcaptainslow said:
It’s not the same. There’s no working out what’s wrong involved in quoting for a set of blinds to be fitted.
A quick visual inspection of something by a garage, maybe. But to spend time doing a diagnostic check, then drilling down further with wiring tests etc, why shouldn’t they charge a diag fee?
It is the same but different! A quick visual inspection of something by a garage, maybe. But to spend time doing a diagnostic check, then drilling down further with wiring tests etc, why shouldn’t they charge a diag fee?
I show up with about £1k worth of samples I have had to buy, and I can't charge the customer for looking at them
I get what you are saying, and as a garage it would annoy me too, but if they are offering a competitive price and a good service then they will get the work.
People wanting a quote for blinds don't care if I have to drive 100 miles and 'waste' half a day to be one of six companies giving them a quote for free. It's even worse if they break one and I have to go back and replace or fix the thing..it is never their fault wnd I can't charge them if it is under warranty.
Atleast garages have that advantage , people that live near by will want to use them.
But yes I understand it is two separate sorts of work.
Edited by Shuvi McTupya on Wednesday 15th November 14:12
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