RE: The best (and worst) gearbox in the world

[white_goodman]

I have mixed experiences. My first experiences of CVT transmissions were in the Rover 25/45 and I wasn't a fan. When you were braking, you felt like you were fighting the transmission and the brakes were only just winning! However, more recently my wife had a Toyota CVT for a couple of years and it was alright, if a little inconsistent. Sometimes the revs would rise and fall like in a conventional auto and others you had the slipping clutch effect, which I don't like but it felt bloody quick for a 1.8 petrol with only 130 odd bhp! Economical too. It also had paddleshifters and 7 fake ratios but I rarely used them. Nissan's CVT was probably my favourite. Just fairly unruffled and unobtrusive but they have had some reliability issues. I also drove a new Honda Civic CVT recently and although it was perfectly effective, it drained any enjoyment out of the driving experience for me. Driving the same car with a manual transmission was much more satisfying (the new Honda Civic is a very underrated car) and the manual was better on fuel too. I've heard on the grapevine that Subaru's CVT is the best but although they're not all bad, I have yet to drive one that rewards keen driving. The ZF 8-speed on the other hand...Generally, 6 speeds (be it manual or auto) is more than enough in any car though and my experience of 9+ speeds is that they're just hunting around all the time for the right gear.

I would be happy to recommend a CVT to a certain type of drive but not really my cup of tea personally.

[canucklehead]

I have driven a CVT-equipped car, and I completely fail to see why everybody moans about them. Seamless power delivery, no fuss, no muss. I liked it.

But then, I'm a mechanical engineer, so I do like a bit of engineering efficiency.

[cptsideways]

One of my Insights is a CVT, I'm not a fan in all honesty.


Interestingly the Honda CVT has a "Pusher" belt not a pulling belt like you would expect it to be.

[tgx]

To my knowledge the CVT is what sidelines a lot of Mini Coopers.
The belts just cannot cope and burn out well before a standard clutch job
would be required.

[CABC]

CVT is a fabulous solution to several problems. Smooth and also responsive in sport mode.
Very fit for purpose and I cannot think when a torque converter would be better.
In traffic it's also better than DCT.

For a sports car, no. That's not its thing.

[xjay1337]

How long before this turns into a "manual is better and autos suck" type thread?

The worst gearbox I've tried was a early 90s Volvo 440 slushmatic.

[Mound Dawg]

Back in 1987

r11co said:

I would never consider CVT for a reason that isn't mentioned in the article - they are not fit for purpose. Try reversing up an incline with one.....

However, 30 years later, all the Fiat Uno Selectas are history so this isn't a problem...

[Talksteer]

Evilex said:

unpc said:

One day soon we'll look back in wonderment that cars had gearboxes at all when our new EV overlords take over.

I agree.
And differentials, driveshafts, timing belts, water pumps, radiators, clutches...
Not that I'll actually miss any of those. That said, I've never broken a diff' or a 'box.
My Nan had a DAF 33 variomatic. I clearly remember my Grandad demonstrating that it really did go as fast in "reverse" as it did forwards!

Ever driven a powerful EV?

The basic pleasure of driving is control, old style slush boxes were hated by enthusiastic drivers because they gave you less control, you couldn't anticipate an overtake or a hill and they had very speeds and slow gear changes.

People disliked early automated manual gearboxes because the changes were harsh, there was often a lag on the down change and at low speed the automatic clutch was annoying. Again all losses of control.

Modern dual clutch and auto boxes now change faster than a manual and work well at low speed and in traffic. They give you more control than a manual in that you don't have to worry about rev matching down changes. They are demonstrably superior gearboxes and that is why they are popular, the only reason to have a manual is a macho one about skill.

CVT's are less popular because they introduce a lag while they adjust gear ratio according to throttle position hence giving the driver the ability to put it in a lower gear in anticipation of acceleration or a hill. Again it's all about control.

A powerful EV essentially gives you pure control of forward velocity, instant acceleration, prepare to be the new train spotters/steam enthusiasts.

[JonnyVTEC]

Prof Prolapse said:

I don't understand the power and reliability criticisms.

Haven't Lexus been using CVTs for about a decade or so? With reasonably high power outputs, certainly exceeding most cars, and maintaining extremely respectable reliability?

The GS450h is about 340bhp isn't it? The LS600h output is much higher isn't it?

Nope, hybrid system afford a totally different drive system. No belts.

[Amanitin]

JonnyVTEC said:

Nope, hybrid system afford a totally different drive system. No belts.

the latest CVTs have chains. Anyhow the point remains they are completely different mechanically. The hybrid drive has a planetary gear set similar to the slusher boxes.

[Peppka]

CVT gearboxes are increasingly being used on tractors now they manufacturers have overcome the problems with really powerful tractors see this link http://www.wnif.co.uk/2017/08/case-ih-quadtrac-cvx... The maximum power of 613hp is achieved at 1,900rpm, and maximum torque of 2,607Nm at 1,400rpm you can pull trees up with that.
Majority of combines have hydrostatic transmission smaller and older ones to employ CVT just a vee belt and two conical pulleys one hydraulically actuated one spring loaded fitted on slef propelled combines since the 1950's.
http://www.wnif.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/1...
Combines like this MF 780 made in Scotland with CVT belt transmission driving through a 2 forward one reverse gearbox long before DAF thought of it.

Edited by Peppka on Thursday 16th November 07:18

[BFleming]

CDP said:

I wonder what the probability of trouble on the Audi CVT is? I've heard horror stories but don't know if it's common or just very loud complaints.

A friend got an A6 Multitronic back in 2012 and 3 months later it was back at the dealer with a vibration problem. They gave it back to him, he gave it back to them etc etc. This continued for the short life of the car - they couldn't fix the box, so replaced it - then that broke too.
I'm sure someone from the motor trade will chip in about how truly bad they are when they break, and someone in sales will say they are worth significantly less & take longer to shift than a manual equivalent.
All the horror stories aside, in 2008 a good friend showed me his new car, an Audi A6 2.7 with the Multitronic box. I sucked through my teeth when he told me it wasn't the Quattro (which has a conventional auto), but in 9 years nothing has gone wrong with the gearbox. For all the bad ones which people moan about, I guess there's a reason somewhere Audi persists building them!

[lee_erm]

I'd take a good CVT over a conventional slush box auto any day.

[Bladedancer]

"so why aren't we all using it"

Might be because VAG made such a hash out of multitronic that people now give all (well, all non-japanese) CVTs a wide berth.

[Guybrush]

I've driven a new Forester XT recently. It was brilliant, seamless, quiet, relaxing (no droning). Just the thing for our crowded roads, but quick when you need it. Given you're in the peak power wherever you are speed wise, it would take a good driver of a manual 'box to be any quicker. I enjoy manual cars, but relaxing driving has its place. I guess some people are basing their experience (irrespective of manufacturer) on older versions of the 'box or just not such good implementations.

[culpz]

DoubleD said:

I fairly regularly jump from manual to CVT. It doesnt feel odd at all to me. I just get in and go. To me its just another automatic.

That's the issue with these kind of threads, some people seem to enjoy being over-dramatic and love over-complicating things.

I've never driven a CVT but i have driven a few generic autos, dual-clutches and tip-tronics. Like you said, i just get in and go really.

[buggalugs]

fido said:

Amanitin said:

the Lexus Synergy drive or whatever it is called is in effect a CVT yes, but the mechanicals are completely different. So much so, that it is closer to a traditional torque converter auto then a 'real' CVT described in the article.

It's not really a CVT but a petrol engine that uses electric motors and an automatic gearbox to convert the torque.

There are sun & planet gears in it but there’s no torque converter, I wouldn’t describe it as a conventional automatic at all though it’s perhaps closer to one than a belt driven CVT

[culpz]

To quote the last paragraph of the article; "In a rational world, we'd all be driving CVTs. But, thank goodness, us fickle humans and our irrational, emotional bond with the automobile wins out. That's where the real magic and intrigue lies".

I'm not so sure about this. Yes, in the UK, the majority of us are still buying manual gearboxes. However, enthusiasts are the minority, which means that there must be a whole other reason(s) why we still like changing gear ourselves, by using a clutch pedal and a gear-stick.

I've already said above that i've never driven a CVT before. I have looked at them before though and they appear to be a decent bet. Many seem to have paddles too, which i think is always nice and personally much preferred. My only potential issue really is the reliability side of them.

[BuzzBravado]

Bladedancer said:

"so why aren't we all using it"

Might be because VAG made such a hash out of multitronic that people now give all (well, all non-japanese) CVTs a wide berth.

The CVT in the Jazz universally panned as well. I have a friend at Honda who admitted it was a terrible move, they just couldn't sell them at all. My only personal experience of CVT was the Prius and i hated every second.

[krismccloy]

Rented out a Toyota Pixis in Tokyo last year, Suited the small Kei car navigating the city we felt. Was a weird, numbing experience with mono tone sound on the scenic route to Motegi. I could best desribe it as an ICE car that felt like it was electric, Very linear.

I'll echo other comments and say that I would never have that gearbox in anything performance related.

The new Civic 1.5 sport (182PS) comes with a CVT, Interesting thread from Hondata who've tried to increase power/torque to see how much the 'box can handle:

http://www.civicx.com/threads/hondata-r-d-finds-li...