Tesla Roadster: Tesla unveils 'fastest production car ever'
Discussion
I hope it's trackable, the model s has a good nurbergring time but it was producing as much power as an Audi A3 by the end of the lap. I wouldn't dare bring the model s to a track, this is a guy who'd happily track an m3 or cts-v. If it's not trackable, does it make sense to make a car this capable?
jamoor said:
DonkeyApple said:
As legislation pushes new ICE into extinction in the West then hybrid will be the infill for those who cannot easily charge an EV domestically. That'll be quite a long transition period as the massive infrastructure to solve home charging for all only really becomes viable once EVs become genuinely cheaper to purchase than hybrids/ICE.
If you look at the basic economics of the most common U.K. household they need a car but certainly cannot afford to pay the premium for an EV but once the EV does become the cheaper purchase then there will be a sea change to its adoption. Until then the majority will remain with ICE and where they are legislated out of ICE they will use hybrid technology.
And you can see these basic economics being acted upon by the incumbent car manufacturers who while they are building pure EVs for the more premium endbof the market they are delivering hybrids for the masses.
Private EVs will remain more the premium end product or specialist niches for quite some time. It's hybrids that almost all of us will be driving by the end of the 2020s. And in the EV segment, if that is remaining a more premium segment then when competition arrives from Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Audi, Volvo and probably many more then this is going to be a very competitive market place where branding obviously is vital but so is being able to deliver a product with enough profit margin and that means hugely efficient construction as well as battery supply. And the incumbents do have the edge on both aspects there.
West? That's funny. China and India have cottoned on too.If you look at the basic economics of the most common U.K. household they need a car but certainly cannot afford to pay the premium for an EV but once the EV does become the cheaper purchase then there will be a sea change to its adoption. Until then the majority will remain with ICE and where they are legislated out of ICE they will use hybrid technology.
And you can see these basic economics being acted upon by the incumbent car manufacturers who while they are building pure EVs for the more premium endbof the market they are delivering hybrids for the masses.
Private EVs will remain more the premium end product or specialist niches for quite some time. It's hybrids that almost all of us will be driving by the end of the 2020s. And in the EV segment, if that is remaining a more premium segment then when competition arrives from Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Audi, Volvo and probably many more then this is going to be a very competitive market place where branding obviously is vital but so is being able to deliver a product with enough profit margin and that means hugely efficient construction as well as battery supply. And the incumbents do have the edge on both aspects there.
China see electric cars as a way to infiltrate western markets in a big way with electric cars. Imo Chinese manufacturers will leapfrog ice and introduce electric cars to us.
8V085 said:
Evanivitch said:
Too Drunk to Funk said:
8V085 said:
Tesla model 3 and the promises made when it was launched looked a bit optimistic and thus far it has been a bit of failure. Not to mention that it isn't actually released yet, it's on roads being beta tested by Tesla's employees.
Yes, strange that we don't even have a 3 in the local dealership yet. I guess the new TVR is a failure already then. As was the Bugatti Veyron,
Model X - was late
Only idiots, & naysayers and to be fair people who don't follow Tesla thought Model 3 wouldn't be late
Evanivitch said:
Too Drunk to Funk said:
8V085 said:
Tesla model 3 and the promises made when it was launched looked a bit optimistic and thus far it has been a bit of failure. Not to mention that it isn't actually released yet, it's on roads being beta tested by Tesla's employees.
Yes, strange that we don't even have a 3 in the local dealership yet. I guess the new TVR is a failure already then. As was the Bugatti Veyron,
Too Drunk to Funk said:
Evanivitch said:
Too Drunk to Funk said:
8V085 said:
Tesla model 3 and the promises made when it was launched looked a bit optimistic and thus far it has been a bit of failure. Not to mention that it isn't actually released yet, it's on roads being beta tested by Tesla's employees.
Yes, strange that we don't even have a 3 in the local dealership yet. I guess the new TVR is a failure already then. As was the Bugatti Veyron,
babatunde said:
8V085 said:
Evanivitch said:
Too Drunk to Funk said:
8V085 said:
Tesla model 3 and the promises made when it was launched looked a bit optimistic and thus far it has been a bit of failure. Not to mention that it isn't actually released yet, it's on roads being beta tested by Tesla's employees.
Yes, strange that we don't even have a 3 in the local dealership yet. I guess the new TVR is a failure already then. As was the Bugatti Veyron,
Model X - was late
Only idiots, & naysayers and to be fair people who don't follow Tesla thought Model 3 wouldn't be late
8V085 said:
babatunde said:
8V085 said:
Evanivitch said:
Too Drunk to Funk said:
8V085 said:
Tesla model 3 and the promises made when it was launched looked a bit optimistic and thus far it has been a bit of failure. Not to mention that it isn't actually released yet, it's on roads being beta tested by Tesla's employees.
Yes, strange that we don't even have a 3 in the local dealership yet. I guess the new TVR is a failure already then. As was the Bugatti Veyron,
Model X - was late
Only idiots, & naysayers and to be fair people who don't follow Tesla thought Model 3 wouldn't be late
Fact is the company will go under unless they can build 10,000 Model3 cars/week and according to a few of the analysts it doesn't even look like thats possible without billions more capex
Given that the Roadster is really irrelevant to the company and analysts are already questioning if the truck is real or just a publicity stunt, Tesla is going to need some great press coverage for the "believers" to write another $10bn cheque in Q1 to keep the scam going
RobDickinson said:
Why get worked up about it?
The reason to get worked up about it is because Baillie Gifford via Scottish Mortgage is one of Teslas biggest shareholdersNow although they keep selling shares, if/when the company goes bust that will be a lot of UK pension holders who will lose money
(and its obviously likely that pension money will be in the other big holders - Fidelity, Vanguard, Blackrock etc)
So just like with the Enron debate 15 years ago (funny enough similar market cap)- the average man on the street will lose a lot of money if the company goes down and I guarantee you 99.9% of UK pension holders won't know they have the exposure
They've made quite a bit on tesla if they invested early enough, and the risk is all part of that, investing in a startup in an industry that is incredibly hard and expensive for startups.
Who knows perhaps they know a little more than you do or are happy taking the risk for the reward, after all thats the nature of their jobs..
Who knows perhaps they know a little more than you do or are happy taking the risk for the reward, after all thats the nature of their jobs..
traxx said:
I just cant think of another company in the world where the CEO is able to blatantly lie to investors and customers and get away with it - why do the press let him get away with all these wild claims that are never true
Fact is the company will go under unless they can build 10,000 Model3 cars/week and according to a few of the analysts it doesn't even look like thats possible without billions more capex
Given that the Roadster is really irrelevant to the company and analysts are already questioning if the truck is real or just a publicity stunt, Tesla is going to need some great press coverage for the "believers" to write another $10bn cheque in Q1 to keep the scam going
They lost $620M in the last quarter but have cash reserves of $3.5Bn. They have enough cash without further investment to last around 1 more year but I guess it gets to a point where investors and suppliers will bail out if the cash reserves plummet too low and the production side of things hasn't picked up.Fact is the company will go under unless they can build 10,000 Model3 cars/week and according to a few of the analysts it doesn't even look like thats possible without billions more capex
Given that the Roadster is really irrelevant to the company and analysts are already questioning if the truck is real or just a publicity stunt, Tesla is going to need some great press coverage for the "believers" to write another $10bn cheque in Q1 to keep the scam going
No good building and selling 100,000 Model S/X if all that revenue isn't making a dent in the outgoings at all. They announced they expected to lose $1bn in the last quarter of 2017, that is a massive amount and they aren't even produce large numbers of Model 3's yet.
I hope they don't go under and can get the production back on track but it doesn't look great at the moment for sure. I'm not sure how laying off 700 people from the Motors division of Tesla will help with production either. Seems a bit odd.
The Truck and Roadster are distractions away from the mess of the Model 3, although they've always been promised and planned the timing seems incredible unsubtle.
The timing is probably to capitalise on the slight stock rally and build that to punish the shorters. He has done that before when short positions have built up to a high level. Spike the price with some news to cut people out.
In reality I don't think anyone wants to see a business fail. You'd have to have to pretty strong hate for EVs for that. And besides, EVs are here and many more are coming so it would be the equivalent of barking at the moon. Like others, I don't think Musk is a truthful individual, nor the messiah but he is very interesting and what he is doing is great to watch even if it is a bit like watching someone's reactions to a troubled childhood.
But TSLA the company is firmly in the transition zone of migrating from its childhood of burning investor cash to becoming a mature business where the stock price instead of being driven by hype and hope becomes driven by real, tangible and traditional numbers. As the revenues from the 3 fall later and later so the ability to maintain the premium in the share price becomes weaker and weaker. And you can see that last week taking affect as the announcement of free trucking and the fastest car in the world didn't boost long volumes anywhere near as much as such announcements havebin the past. 2018 is the big year. They have to be getting the revenue in from the 3 that the market has priced in to the stock and meanwhile it's going to be the year that the incumbents start ramping up the marketing of their future EVs and it's probably the year that Chinese battery production takes another enormous leap forward in its production volumes as well as their relentless march forward to become dominate in the hybrid interim period before being the main force in the EV market.
And let's not forget that if China at any time halts the flow of permitted raw materials to TSLA's gigafactory before TSLA manage to secure non Chinese State controlled supply contracts then all production and revenues are pretty much kaput. I suspect that 2018 might also be the year more people come to appreciate that the real weakness of TSLA is that they don't have proper or secure supply contracts for key resources but must buy in the open market and those markets are controlled by China. This is why no one has signed a deal to buy TSLA's batteries. They cannot guarantee that they will have any and no one entering this field can risk halting sales pending the arrival of delayed power packs. Everyone is signing deals with the Chinese as everyone knows this is their market.
In reality I don't think anyone wants to see a business fail. You'd have to have to pretty strong hate for EVs for that. And besides, EVs are here and many more are coming so it would be the equivalent of barking at the moon. Like others, I don't think Musk is a truthful individual, nor the messiah but he is very interesting and what he is doing is great to watch even if it is a bit like watching someone's reactions to a troubled childhood.
But TSLA the company is firmly in the transition zone of migrating from its childhood of burning investor cash to becoming a mature business where the stock price instead of being driven by hype and hope becomes driven by real, tangible and traditional numbers. As the revenues from the 3 fall later and later so the ability to maintain the premium in the share price becomes weaker and weaker. And you can see that last week taking affect as the announcement of free trucking and the fastest car in the world didn't boost long volumes anywhere near as much as such announcements havebin the past. 2018 is the big year. They have to be getting the revenue in from the 3 that the market has priced in to the stock and meanwhile it's going to be the year that the incumbents start ramping up the marketing of their future EVs and it's probably the year that Chinese battery production takes another enormous leap forward in its production volumes as well as their relentless march forward to become dominate in the hybrid interim period before being the main force in the EV market.
And let's not forget that if China at any time halts the flow of permitted raw materials to TSLA's gigafactory before TSLA manage to secure non Chinese State controlled supply contracts then all production and revenues are pretty much kaput. I suspect that 2018 might also be the year more people come to appreciate that the real weakness of TSLA is that they don't have proper or secure supply contracts for key resources but must buy in the open market and those markets are controlled by China. This is why no one has signed a deal to buy TSLA's batteries. They cannot guarantee that they will have any and no one entering this field can risk halting sales pending the arrival of delayed power packs. Everyone is signing deals with the Chinese as everyone knows this is their market.
Blaster72 said:
They lost $620M in the last quarter but have cash reserves of $3.5Bn. They have enough cash without further investment to last around 1 more year but I guess it gets to a point where investors and suppliers will bail out if the cash reserves plummet too low and the production side of things hasn't picked up.
The key figure is not the accounting loss - its the negative $1.4 billion cash flow in the quarter There are huge payments for the Model3 production line coming this quarter which added to Teslas forecasts mean they will have to raise money in early Q1
Although Tesla is now shifting more and more of its assets into these Variable Interest Entities (VIEs) - this is where they sell the asset to a third party and "rent" it back - since they dont detail the cash flow of these deals the cash position might actually be better or worse
traxx said:
I just cant think of another company in the world where the CEO is able to blatantly lie to investors and customers and get away with it - why do the press let him get away with all these wild claims that are never true
Ferdinand Piëch?Matthias Müller?
Martin Winterkorn?
Sergio Marchionne? (delays and ever changing business plans...)
And that's in 1 minute, in recent car business. Look elsewhere and further back and you'll find CEOs don't tell the truth more than the rest of us.
Too Drunk to Funk said:
RobDickinson said:
Why get worked up about it?
Elon has always delivered what he says , yes often late...
In 6 months there will be many 3's rolling off the production line or no Tesla.
Can we not end the pointless speculation and stick to what's actually happening at the moment?Elon has always delivered what he says , yes often late...
In 6 months there will be many 3's rolling off the production line or no Tesla.
DapperDanMan said:
Too Drunk to Funk said:
RobDickinson said:
Why get worked up about it?
Elon has always delivered what he says , yes often late...
In 6 months there will be many 3's rolling off the production line or no Tesla.
Can we not end the pointless speculation and stick to what's actually happening at the moment?Elon has always delivered what he says , yes often late...
In 6 months there will be many 3's rolling off the production line or no Tesla.
However TDtF's post is amusing, because what is "omg Tesla's doomed" if not pointless speculation.
80% of the job for car makers is too create cars which generate interest and the public want. Tesla has done that and some.
The productions problems they have at the moment are due to missing the PV stage of the build and the massive unexpected order book. It a relatively easy (but expensive and time consuming problem to solve).
I'm sure 2018 will be a good year for them as the 3 will be produced in significant numbers, and they have no significant competition, however the real test will come in 2019/20 when most mainstream manufacturers have a dedicated EV model out and not some compromised current chassis with a battery shoved in the boot.
If I was an investor I'd be asking how they plan to compete in 2/3 years time.
The productions problems they have at the moment are due to missing the PV stage of the build and the massive unexpected order book. It a relatively easy (but expensive and time consuming problem to solve).
I'm sure 2018 will be a good year for them as the 3 will be produced in significant numbers, and they have no significant competition, however the real test will come in 2019/20 when most mainstream manufacturers have a dedicated EV model out and not some compromised current chassis with a battery shoved in the boot.
If I was an investor I'd be asking how they plan to compete in 2/3 years time.
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