Do main dealers farm out work to Indies?
Discussion
I bought an esprit from a lotus main dealer a couple of years ago. They had outsourced the recent belt change to a local indie. Guy really knows his stuff. I was far happier with that than someone at the dealership who had probably never worked in an esprit before having a crack at it.
I thought it was a sensible decision by the dealership (who made a virtue of it rather than trying to hide it)
I thought it was a sensible decision by the dealership (who made a virtue of it rather than trying to hide it)
A mate of mine used to work at the local BMW main dealer and told me that they use a local independent specialist for service work when they can't keep up with their work load.
I'm not sure whether or not they do this with Joe publics cars or or if it is just the likes of fleet cars.
I have used the Indy in question and they are superb but unless the owners know they are doing this I just can't see how this is acceptable however you want to look at it.
The Indys labour rates are about a third of the main dealers so you are effectively paying three times the labour for a main dealer stamp when it hasn't actually been serviced by a main dealer!!
I'm not sure whether or not they do this with Joe publics cars or or if it is just the likes of fleet cars.
I have used the Indy in question and they are superb but unless the owners know they are doing this I just can't see how this is acceptable however you want to look at it.
The Indys labour rates are about a third of the main dealers so you are effectively paying three times the labour for a main dealer stamp when it hasn't actually been serviced by a main dealer!!
Nedzilla said:
A mate of mine used to work at the local BMW main dealer and told me that they use a local independent specialist for service work when they can't keep up with their work load.
I'm not sure whether or not they do this with Joe publics cars or or if it is just the likes of fleet cars.
I have used the Indy in question and they are superb but unless the owners know they are doing this I just can't see how this is acceptable however you want to look at it.
The Indys labour rates are about a third of the main dealers so you are effectively paying three times the labour for a main dealer stamp when it hasn't actually been serviced by a main dealer!!
But you are also paying for dealer back up and the service history.I'm not sure whether or not they do this with Joe publics cars or or if it is just the likes of fleet cars.
I have used the Indy in question and they are superb but unless the owners know they are doing this I just can't see how this is acceptable however you want to look at it.
The Indys labour rates are about a third of the main dealers so you are effectively paying three times the labour for a main dealer stamp when it hasn't actually been serviced by a main dealer!!
If anything went wrong you wouldn't be fighting and indy you'd be fighting BMW.
I had a job a while back which was re-fitting a cylinder head to a motorhome.
Owner had gone through an agency then me and his reasoning was he'd have more of a comeback on the agency rather than just a regular guy.
Josho said:
Nedzilla said:
A mate of mine used to work at the local BMW main dealer and told me that they use a local independent specialist for service work when they can't keep up with their work load.
I'm not sure whether or not they do this with Joe publics cars or or if it is just the likes of fleet cars.
I have used the Indy in question and they are superb but unless the owners know they are doing this I just can't see how this is acceptable however you want to look at it.
The Indys labour rates are about a third of the main dealers so you are effectively paying three times the labour for a main dealer stamp when it hasn't actually been serviced by a main dealer!!
But you are also paying for dealer back up and the service history.I'm not sure whether or not they do this with Joe publics cars or or if it is just the likes of fleet cars.
I have used the Indy in question and they are superb but unless the owners know they are doing this I just can't see how this is acceptable however you want to look at it.
The Indys labour rates are about a third of the main dealers so you are effectively paying three times the labour for a main dealer stamp when it hasn't actually been serviced by a main dealer!!
If anything went wrong you wouldn't be fighting and indy you'd be fighting BMW.
I had a job a while back which was re-fitting a cylinder head to a motorhome.
Owner had gone through an agency then me and his reasoning was he'd have more of a comeback on the agency rather than just a regular guy.
It doesn't seem that far removed from doing the servicing yourself on the driveway then chucking your mate who works at BMW £20 to take the service book into work and filling it full of stamps!
r11co said:
Categorially YES.
My brother-in-law recently bought a used RR Sport from a franchised dealer. The car had issues with the two front suspension units and the dealer took the car back in to fix under warranty.
My bro-in-law is in the trade and called one of his contacts who runs a local indie JLR specialist repair and service centre to ask if he could shed some light on the issue and advise what to look out for to check the repair had been done properly and not bodged.
Lo-and-behold my bro-in-law's car was on ramps in said specialist's garage getting the two front units replaced at that exact moment they were having the telephone conversation!
Absolutely so, can wander up to my indy and see not just used vehicles but nearly new RR etc getting service/ work.My brother-in-law recently bought a used RR Sport from a franchised dealer. The car had issues with the two front suspension units and the dealer took the car back in to fix under warranty.
My bro-in-law is in the trade and called one of his contacts who runs a local indie JLR specialist repair and service centre to ask if he could shed some light on the issue and advise what to look out for to check the repair had been done properly and not bodged.
Lo-and-behold my bro-in-law's car was on ramps in said specialist's garage getting the two front units replaced at that exact moment they were having the telephone conversation!
His hourly rate is less than half of the JLR rate. Thousands worth of business just on the transmission side annually.
Nedzilla said:
That's true enough,you also get the benefit of the main dealer stamp which will help and possibly increase the resale value of your car. But without your knowledge it still seems wrong.
Does it really matter? An oil service done by anyone is the same thing, the independents will inevitably be using approved parts, and the dealer stamp means they'll stand by the work (which would help in case of a warranty issue etc etc), so what does it matter who actually turned the spanner?Krikkit said:
Nedzilla said:
That's true enough,you also get the benefit of the main dealer stamp which will help and possibly increase the resale value of your car. But without your knowledge it still seems wrong.
Does it really matter? An oil service done by anyone is the same thing, the independents will inevitably be using approved parts, and the dealer stamp means they'll stand by the work (which would help in case of a warranty issue etc etc), so what does it matter who actually turned the spanner?
Thinking about this, if they tell you, and you are happy then fine.
If they don't tell you they are not being 100% honest.
The quality of the work is not the issue.
Put it into another context. You hire a decorator
as I did recently. I chose him on reputation, his workmanship and all round high quality of his operation. He came at a price. More expensive than other quotes. He did a great job, a job I paid over the odds for him to do. I'd have been pretty annoyed if he'd sent some other bloke along to do the job without asking me first.
As for bodywork/crash repairs, that's possibly a different matter. That's a specialist service. In the past I've had a couple of Volvos needing body shop attention. I did it through the main dealer knowing the cars would be outsourced, but also knowing that if they weren't fixed properly Volvo would share the responsibility. This paid off when one car came back with a poorly fitted interior part and ripped underbonnet stickers. It was a newish car. The body shop got argumentative. A call to the dealer and it was dealt with straight away.
If they don't tell you they are not being 100% honest.
The quality of the work is not the issue.
Put it into another context. You hire a decorator
as I did recently. I chose him on reputation, his workmanship and all round high quality of his operation. He came at a price. More expensive than other quotes. He did a great job, a job I paid over the odds for him to do. I'd have been pretty annoyed if he'd sent some other bloke along to do the job without asking me first.
As for bodywork/crash repairs, that's possibly a different matter. That's a specialist service. In the past I've had a couple of Volvos needing body shop attention. I did it through the main dealer knowing the cars would be outsourced, but also knowing that if they weren't fixed properly Volvo would share the responsibility. This paid off when one car came back with a poorly fitted interior part and ripped underbonnet stickers. It was a newish car. The body shop got argumentative. A call to the dealer and it was dealt with straight away.
I agree it would be nice if they told you but at the end of the day, you are paying for them maintaining a certain standard e.g. technicians trained to a certain level, OEM parts, using the right tools for job etc.
The dealers job is to make sure that they can provide that level of service, whether it is them or an indie which they have vetted as equivalent to their standard.
So when you go for an oil change, it could be an apprentice doing it but with intermittent supervision from a more senior person. Are you really worse off if they shipped your car off to an indie, and maybe it's the owner who does that particular job?
It's already a bit of a lottery who actually does the work but the dealer is guaranteeing the level of service and you go back to them if there are any issues.
The dealers job is to make sure that they can provide that level of service, whether it is them or an indie which they have vetted as equivalent to their standard.
So when you go for an oil change, it could be an apprentice doing it but with intermittent supervision from a more senior person. Are you really worse off if they shipped your car off to an indie, and maybe it's the owner who does that particular job?
It's already a bit of a lottery who actually does the work but the dealer is guaranteeing the level of service and you go back to them if there are any issues.
leef44 said:
I agree it would be nice if they told you but at the end of the day, you are paying for them maintaining a certain standard e.g. technicians trained to a certain level, OEM parts, using the right tools for job etc.
The dealers job is to make sure that they can provide that level of service, whether it is them or an indie which they have vetted as equivalent to their standard.
So when you go for an oil change, it could be an apprentice doing it but with intermittent supervision from a more senior person. Are you really worse off if they shipped your car off to an indie, and maybe it's the owner who does that particular job?
It's already a bit of a lottery who actually does the work but the dealer is guaranteeing the level of service and you go back to them if there are any issues.
If the dealer wants to give people the option of a subbed job that's fine, as long as they are transparent about what they are doing and pass through some of the savings. As this will never happen, its dishonest. Practically speaking its probably unlikely that a one-off subbed service will create mechanical problems, but that isn't the point. The dealers job is to make sure that they can provide that level of service, whether it is them or an indie which they have vetted as equivalent to their standard.
So when you go for an oil change, it could be an apprentice doing it but with intermittent supervision from a more senior person. Are you really worse off if they shipped your car off to an indie, and maybe it's the owner who does that particular job?
It's already a bit of a lottery who actually does the work but the dealer is guaranteeing the level of service and you go back to them if there are any issues.
Jag_NE said:
leef44 said:
I agree it would be nice if they told you but at the end of the day, you are paying for them maintaining a certain standard e.g. technicians trained to a certain level, OEM parts, using the right tools for job etc.
The dealers job is to make sure that they can provide that level of service, whether it is them or an indie which they have vetted as equivalent to their standard.
So when you go for an oil change, it could be an apprentice doing it but with intermittent supervision from a more senior person. Are you really worse off if they shipped your car off to an indie, and maybe it's the owner who does that particular job?
It's already a bit of a lottery who actually does the work but the dealer is guaranteeing the level of service and you go back to them if there are any issues.
If the dealer wants to give people the option of a subbed job that's fine, as long as they are transparent about what they are doing and pass through some of the savings. As this will never happen, its dishonest. Practically speaking its probably unlikely that a one-off subbed service will create mechanical problems, but that isn't the point. The dealers job is to make sure that they can provide that level of service, whether it is them or an indie which they have vetted as equivalent to their standard.
So when you go for an oil change, it could be an apprentice doing it but with intermittent supervision from a more senior person. Are you really worse off if they shipped your car off to an indie, and maybe it's the owner who does that particular job?
It's already a bit of a lottery who actually does the work but the dealer is guaranteeing the level of service and you go back to them if there are any issues.
Plate spinner said:
Jag_NE said:
leef44 said:
I agree it would be nice if they told you but at the end of the day, you are paying for them maintaining a certain standard e.g. technicians trained to a certain level, OEM parts, using the right tools for job etc.
The dealers job is to make sure that they can provide that level of service, whether it is them or an indie which they have vetted as equivalent to their standard.
So when you go for an oil change, it could be an apprentice doing it but with intermittent supervision from a more senior person. Are you really worse off if they shipped your car off to an indie, and maybe it's the owner who does that particular job?
It's already a bit of a lottery who actually does the work but the dealer is guaranteeing the level of service and you go back to them if there are any issues.
If the dealer wants to give people the option of a subbed job that's fine, as long as they are transparent about what they are doing and pass through some of the savings. As this will never happen, its dishonest. Practically speaking its probably unlikely that a one-off subbed service will create mechanical problems, but that isn't the point. The dealers job is to make sure that they can provide that level of service, whether it is them or an indie which they have vetted as equivalent to their standard.
So when you go for an oil change, it could be an apprentice doing it but with intermittent supervision from a more senior person. Are you really worse off if they shipped your car off to an indie, and maybe it's the owner who does that particular job?
It's already a bit of a lottery who actually does the work but the dealer is guaranteeing the level of service and you go back to them if there are any issues.
It seems that many main dealers now, don't train their technicians to fix or repair anything. They just train them to take off old parts and bolt on new. I've heard quite a few stories now of Porsche owners taking their cars to the stealers with engine faults and, instead of any attempt being made to fix, repair or rebuild the engine, they are just sold new engines.
Johnny5hoods said:
It seems that many main dealers now, don't train their technicians to fix or repair anything. They just train them to take off old parts and bolt on new. I've heard quite a few stories now of Porsche owners taking their cars to the stealers with engine faults and, instead of any attempt being made to fix, repair or rebuild the engine, they are just sold new engines.
i had the same experience but then the opposite in the same instance....gearbox defect, fault agreed with dealer. the dealer didn't know how to fix it but the factory (MB) put them through a vast amount of fault analysis and part changes, i think it was about 100 hours of labour in all, the car was in for at least 4 weeks on the final attempt, undoubtedly would have been cheaper to just change the box. the fault was never remedied either!Sending out MOTs is not unusual, but it's less common to subcontract the normal work.
It does (kind of) happen the other way round - when you use one of the online service booking sites the car is quite often sent to a franchised dealer for the work to be carried out. It works well for everyone - the online site gets the car serviced cheaply by someone who isn't going to try and get the customer to come direct to them next time, and the dealer gets to fill some unused workshop capacity without Mr Jones knowing that his wife's Fiesta is being serviced by Mercedes Oxford at half the labour rate he pays when his E Class goes there.
It does (kind of) happen the other way round - when you use one of the online service booking sites the car is quite often sent to a franchised dealer for the work to be carried out. It works well for everyone - the online site gets the car serviced cheaply by someone who isn't going to try and get the customer to come direct to them next time, and the dealer gets to fill some unused workshop capacity without Mr Jones knowing that his wife's Fiesta is being serviced by Mercedes Oxford at half the labour rate he pays when his E Class goes there.
Johnny5hoods said:
It seems that many main dealers now, don't train their technicians to fix or repair anything. They just train them to take off old parts and bolt on new. I've heard quite a few stories now of Porsche owners taking their cars to the stealers with engine faults and, instead of any attempt being made to fix, repair or rebuild the engine, they are just sold new engines.
In that instance though-it may be more cost effective to replace the whole unit rather than the significantly higher labour hours to rebuild it.Also-a complete exchange or new engine will come with at least 12 month’s warranty. Win/win.
Yes
Some things, like Auto gearbox repair they simply can't fix themselves and customers with older cars won't pay for a complete replacement so they take them to specialists (my mate being one)
Some send the customer direct, others don't, I have no idea if they tell the customer - I suspect not.
Some things, like Auto gearbox repair they simply can't fix themselves and customers with older cars won't pay for a complete replacement so they take them to specialists (my mate being one)
Some send the customer direct, others don't, I have no idea if they tell the customer - I suspect not.
It is quite common.
And it is a 2-way street.
The dealers use indys for MOTs, overflow, unfixable faults, specialist or niche work, often on older cars.
The indys use dealers for technical info, often on newer cars where less data is in the public domain.
Every industry on the planet uses hidden outsourcing and overcharges for it. For example, Apple sells an expensive £1000 iPhone, but it's made by a cheap Taiwanese company in China for peanuts. It's the way the world works, nowadays.
And it is a 2-way street.
The dealers use indys for MOTs, overflow, unfixable faults, specialist or niche work, often on older cars.
The indys use dealers for technical info, often on newer cars where less data is in the public domain.
Every industry on the planet uses hidden outsourcing and overcharges for it. For example, Apple sells an expensive £1000 iPhone, but it's made by a cheap Taiwanese company in China for peanuts. It's the way the world works, nowadays.
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