Waste of money ‘maintenance’
Discussion
steveo3002 said:
HustleRussell said:
steveo3002 said:
premature wear on the sump plug threads,common issue on over serviced cars ....
Joking right? As for engine flush, not falling for that one. The only thing I want in my engine is decent clean oil of the correct spec, no added snake oil. Even if it was beneficial and the technicians were actually putting the stuff in I highly doubt most of them follow the instructions- as if they're going to go out there 15 minutes early, check oil level, reduce if necessary and put the stuff in, leaving the car idling. As if the foreman's going to let them.
"Another fag break Wayne? f
k's sake what do I pay you for, got cars coming out of me ears etc etc""Yeah I've gotta wait another 8 minutes for the engine flush in that Carina..."
also how come the car makers never insist on its use , or if it was needed then a bottle would come come with your can of mobil1 etc to ensure it works well
what happens to the strong detergent left in the sump and valleys of the engine that dont drain 100%..im sure that does the brand new oil the world of good
Nanook said:
My friend's garage is part of the 'Good Garage Scheme' (I think that's what it's called) and I'm sure he told me it's a requirement that they use these engine flushes as part of their service, to stay part of the scheme.
Hmm... Having just googled it, it seems the scheme is run by Forte, which might explain the demand for use of engine flush products!
Good Garage Scheme is a scam - to be a member you have to buy a certain quantity of Forte flushes and additives, and recommend their use. There is no actual audit or requirements to be a 'good garage' beyond this.Hmm... Having just googled it, it seems the scheme is run by Forte, which might explain the demand for use of engine flush products!
Flushing an engine which isn't newish, or hasn't been flushed regularly its whole life is dangerous. There are hundreds of documented cases where a 100k mile engine has had an oil flush used which has cleared a load of gunk which then blocks an oil pump pickup or oilway somewhere and destroys the engine.
Engine flush.
If the oil is renewed when it is still in good condition a flush will have no "build up" to remove.
Maybe if I had a old car that had been neglected and was tuning like a dog maybe as a last throw of the dice but a can of snake oil before every oil change is just money for old rope.
Like others have said I doubt it would even get done as it would just get dropped out with the old oil, customer would never ever know either way as there are no benefits on a regularly serviced car.
If the oil is renewed when it is still in good condition a flush will have no "build up" to remove.
Maybe if I had a old car that had been neglected and was tuning like a dog maybe as a last throw of the dice but a can of snake oil before every oil change is just money for old rope.
Like others have said I doubt it would even get done as it would just get dropped out with the old oil, customer would never ever know either way as there are no benefits on a regularly serviced car.
Nanook said:
Hundreds of documented cases?
Got any links? I'd like to read that.
Sadly not publicly documented, but a browse online will throw a few up where owners have taken to the forums to discuss it. Additive companies make MASSIVE margins on their product sales but they also run a huge warranty fund ready to pay out if their product causes issues and results in an engine or fuel pump going bang.Got any links? I'd like to read that.
The higher end products, like the stuff Forte sell, does what it's supposed to do (the cheap ones usually are just snake oil) but in the process of clearing contaminants and gunk from inside an engine it's inevitable that they find their way down to the sump. With some engine designs (I remember Saab being especially susceptible) this causes blockages and can destroy the engine through a lack of lubrication.
CambsBill said:
OP, does your car have directional tyres? If so, a side to side rotation would entail taking the tyres off the wheels wouldn't it?
I doubt he really meant side to side. Tyre rotation as I understand it, means swapping fronts to rear, and vice versa. This evens out your tyre wear a bit, but does seem to increase the odds that you end up with a bill for four tyres at once instead of two...I once bought a Mk2 Golf GTI with 140k on the clock, but in excellent nick and with a good service history. Knowing that the engine hadn't ever been taken apart, I decided to run an oil flush through the system as part of the first proper service (coolant flush with a hosepipe etc.). Based on the dark colour of the flush that came out (Millers brand, IIRC) compared with the colour of the oil on the dipstick, it had clearly loosened some deposits from the engine that probably wouldn't have emerged as a result of just changing the oil.
While I can't actually say that it fundamentally improved the way the car ran (I'm very wary of the placebo effect), the fact that it has covered another 50k+ trouble-miles without major issue suggests that it clearly did no significant harm.
It's probably not necessary for newer/younger cars, but I'd give it serious thought if I was to buy another high-miler.
While I can't actually say that it fundamentally improved the way the car ran (I'm very wary of the placebo effect), the fact that it has covered another 50k+ trouble-miles without major issue suggests that it clearly did no significant harm.
It's probably not necessary for newer/younger cars, but I'd give it serious thought if I was to buy another high-miler.
Nanook said:
Oh.
You said hundreds of documented cases. What you mean is "some people on the internet said it happened to them"
No, what I mean is I spent several years managing an oil and additive product range for one of the biggest suppliers to workshops in the UK. This involved working with the chemical companies who manufacture these additives, understanding business models and where the money went, and working with garages, some of whom were Good Garage Scheme members. In addition it involved understanding warranty rates and how they compared with the rest of the industry, so I'm reasonably well qualified to comment on this topic. You said hundreds of documented cases. What you mean is "some people on the internet said it happened to them"
Of course this stuff isn't made public, you wouldn't expect any company to document all the times their product has failed or caused damage, unless forced to by regulation. That doesn't mean that the documentation doesn't exist, it's just kept inside the company.
Richard-390a0 said:
Agreed I recently changed the sump pan on a Smart Fortwo that had become porous. 15 years of only having the oil extracted via the dipstick tube as there is no sump plug & the same as you, no sludge or gunk at all. I was pleasantly surprised.
As the Smart only takes 3.5l and I buy 5l at a time I usually empty it via dipstick and then add about a litre with the extraction pump running and it is darker than when it went in 2mins earlier. It's reassuring to know yours was spotless at 15yo, I was tempted to change the pan just to see what the pick-up, crank and con rods looked like on my roadster.jamiebae said:
Nanook said:
Oh.
You said hundreds of documented cases. What you mean is "some people on the internet said it happened to them"
No, what I mean is I spent several years managing an oil and additive product range for one of the biggest suppliers to workshops in the UK. This involved working with the chemical companies who manufacture these additives, understanding business models and where the money went, and working with garages, some of whom were Good Garage Scheme members. In addition it involved understanding warranty rates and how they compared with the rest of the industry, so I'm reasonably well qualified to comment on this topic. You said hundreds of documented cases. What you mean is "some people on the internet said it happened to them"
Of course this stuff isn't made public, you wouldn't expect any company to document all the times their product has failed or caused damage, unless forced to by regulation. That doesn't mean that the documentation doesn't exist, it's just kept inside the company.
nope i call bulls
te, been using it for a good 25 years, i have killed 2 engines by using it but both were knock knock knocking at heavens door before i used it, where as i have saved/cleaned hundreds.Most recently a 1.6 DV6 engined citroen van that came in knocking it's tats oot and had a totaly blocked filter, i changed the oil and filter, no quieter, added flush and it shut up after 5 mins, drained what was left, ran new oil and filter 2 more times THEN removed the sump to get the rest of the ashfelt out of the sump and clean the strainer and the turbo feed and return, result? engine saved, flush worked as it should, it desolved most of the crud and held it in suspension, when drained the oil with the flush in it was thick like old well over used grease.
Only 2 days ago 1.4 TDCi fiesta, bought by me and had obv missed the odd service as the filler kneck was full of grease like oil residue from not enough long runs, now i could have changed the oil, gone for a 40 to 50 mile run and then drained it again but based on my knolledge of engines i flushed it, changed the oil and the sludge was mostly shifted, i checked the pickup with my inspection camera and as it was clean and clear i filled the oil and am happyly driving the car now without a worry.
Oil flush is NOT snake oil it is a tool and like any tool you need to know when and where to use it, sometimes it gets used on near death engines and it tips then over the edge, i killed a CVH with flush, i flushed it and it then leaked all over the place, it wasn't the flush that killed it directly it was the seals that leaked like sivs after they where cleaned, i am in no doubt many an unsklilled home mechanic has at some time killed an engine by using the wornge tool at the wronge time but do you blame the workman or the tool.
Edited by S0 What on Thursday 23 November 17:42
Decky_Q said:
Richard-390a0 said:
Agreed I recently changed the sump pan on a Smart Fortwo that had become porous. 15 years of only having the oil extracted via the dipstick tube as there is no sump plug & the same as you, no sludge or gunk at all. I was pleasantly surprised.
As the Smart only takes 3.5l and I buy 5l at a time I usually empty it via dipstick and then add about a litre with the extraction pump running and it is darker than when it went in 2mins earlier. It's reassuring to know yours was spotless at 15yo, I was tempted to change the pan just to see what the pick-up, crank and con rods looked like on my roadster.
S0 What said:
So your asking us to trust you when you say engine flush is snake oil ?
nope i call bullste, been using it for a good 25 years, i have killed 2 engines by using it but both were knock knock knocking at heavens door before i used it, where as i have saved/cleaned hundreds.
Most recently a 1.6 DV6 engined citroen van that came in knocking it's tats oot and had a totaly blocked filter, i changed the oil and filter, no quieter, added flush and it shut up after 5 mins, drained what was left, ran new oil and filter 2 more times THEN removed the sump to get the rest of the ashfelt out of the sump and clean the strainer and the turbo feed and return, result? engine saved, flush worked as it should, it desolved most of the crud and held it in suspension, when drained the oil with the flush in it was thick like old well over used grease.
Only 2 days ago 1.4 TDCi fiesta, bought by me and had obv missed the odd service as the filler kneck was full of grease like oil residue from not enough long runs, now i could have changed the oil, gone for a 40 to 50 mile run and then drained it again but based on my knolledge of engines i flushed it, changed the oil and the sludge was mostly shifted, i checked the pickup with my inspection camera and as it was clean and clear i filled the oil and am happyly driving the car now without a worry.
Oil flush is NOT snake oil it is a tool and like any tool you need to know when and where to use it, sometimes it gets used on near death engines and it tips then over the edge, i killed a CVH with flush, i flushed it and it then leaked all over the place, it wasn't the flush that killed it directly it was the seals that leaked like sivs after they where cleaned, i am in no doubt many an unsklilled home mechanic has at some time killed an engine by using the wornge tool at the wronge time but do you blame the workman or the tool.
I think there's a massive difference between using a flush to unclog a blocked up engine that's been abused by missing multiple services (meaning oil has turned to grease/sludge) and using a flush as a routine part of servicing a car on schedule.nope i call bulls
te, been using it for a good 25 years, i have killed 2 engines by using it but both were knock knock knocking at heavens door before i used it, where as i have saved/cleaned hundreds.Most recently a 1.6 DV6 engined citroen van that came in knocking it's tats oot and had a totaly blocked filter, i changed the oil and filter, no quieter, added flush and it shut up after 5 mins, drained what was left, ran new oil and filter 2 more times THEN removed the sump to get the rest of the ashfelt out of the sump and clean the strainer and the turbo feed and return, result? engine saved, flush worked as it should, it desolved most of the crud and held it in suspension, when drained the oil with the flush in it was thick like old well over used grease.
Only 2 days ago 1.4 TDCi fiesta, bought by me and had obv missed the odd service as the filler kneck was full of grease like oil residue from not enough long runs, now i could have changed the oil, gone for a 40 to 50 mile run and then drained it again but based on my knolledge of engines i flushed it, changed the oil and the sludge was mostly shifted, i checked the pickup with my inspection camera and as it was clean and clear i filled the oil and am happyly driving the car now without a worry.
Oil flush is NOT snake oil it is a tool and like any tool you need to know when and where to use it, sometimes it gets used on near death engines and it tips then over the edge, i killed a CVH with flush, i flushed it and it then leaked all over the place, it wasn't the flush that killed it directly it was the seals that leaked like sivs after they where cleaned, i am in no doubt many an unsklilled home mechanic has at some time killed an engine by using the wornge tool at the wronge time but do you blame the workman or the tool.
In the first case it might well be the right tool for the job, helping to undo some of the damage that's already been caused and unblocking things that have become blocked.
In the second case, I think it's just asking for trouble personally. I've always serviced my cars according to schedule and have never had a sludge problem despite not using a flush. If it was necessary as a routine thing then I think manufacturers would have it as a part of the service schedule, and would have approvals standards for the flushes required etc.
If a car doesn't already have a sludge problem, then I've no desire to run an unknown fluid through the system, that hasn't been approved by the manufacturer, with unknown lubricating properties, and then probably leaving a bit of it mixed with the new oil for the entire life of that new oil.
Fore Left said:
Nanook said:
My friend's garage is part of the 'Good Garage Scheme' (I think that's what it's called) and I'm sure he told me it's a requirement that they use these engine flushes as part of their service, to stay part of the scheme.
Hmm... Having just googled it, it seems the scheme is run by Forte, which might explain the demand for use of engine flush products!
This needs to be more widely publicised. It's nothing to do with being a good garage and all to do with buying product.Hmm... Having just googled it, it seems the scheme is run by Forte, which might explain the demand for use of engine flush products!
S0 What said:
So your asking us to trust you when you say engine flush is snake oil ?
nope i call bullste, been using it for a good 25 years, i have killed 2 engines by using it but both were knock knock knocking at heavens door before i used it, where as i have saved/cleaned hundreds.
Most recently a 1.6 DV6 engined citroen van that came in knocking it's tats oot and had a totaly blocked filter, i changed the oil and filter, no quieter, added flush and it shut up after 5 mins, drained what was left, ran new oil and filter 2 more times THEN removed the sump to get the rest of the ashfelt out of the sump and clean the strainer and the turbo feed and return, result? engine saved, flush worked as it should, it desolved most of the crud and held it in suspension, when drained the oil with the flush in it was thick like old well over used grease.
Only 2 days ago 1.4 TDCi fiesta, bought by me and had obv missed the odd service as the filler kneck was full of grease like oil residue from not enough long runs, now i could have changed the oil, gone for a 40 to 50 mile run and then drained it again but based on my knolledge of engines i flushed it, changed the oil and the sludge was mostly shifted, i checked the pickup with my inspection camera and as it was clean and clear i filled the oil and am happyly driving the car now without a worry.
Oil flush is NOT snake oil it is a tool and like any tool you need to know when and where to use it, sometimes it gets used on near death engines and it tips then over the edge, i killed a CVH with flush, i flushed it and it then leaked all over the place, it wasn't the flush that killed it directly it was the seals that leaked like sivs after they where cleaned, i am in no doubt many an unsklilled home mechanic has at some time killed an engine by using the wornge tool at the wronge time but do you blame the workman or the tool.
The cheap stuff is snake oil, yes, no question at all,nope i call bulls
te, been using it for a good 25 years, i have killed 2 engines by using it but both were knock knock knocking at heavens door before i used it, where as i have saved/cleaned hundreds.Most recently a 1.6 DV6 engined citroen van that came in knocking it's tats oot and had a totaly blocked filter, i changed the oil and filter, no quieter, added flush and it shut up after 5 mins, drained what was left, ran new oil and filter 2 more times THEN removed the sump to get the rest of the ashfelt out of the sump and clean the strainer and the turbo feed and return, result? engine saved, flush worked as it should, it desolved most of the crud and held it in suspension, when drained the oil with the flush in it was thick like old well over used grease.
Only 2 days ago 1.4 TDCi fiesta, bought by me and had obv missed the odd service as the filler kneck was full of grease like oil residue from not enough long runs, now i could have changed the oil, gone for a 40 to 50 mile run and then drained it again but based on my knolledge of engines i flushed it, changed the oil and the sludge was mostly shifted, i checked the pickup with my inspection camera and as it was clean and clear i filled the oil and am happyly driving the car now without a worry.
Oil flush is NOT snake oil it is a tool and like any tool you need to know when and where to use it, sometimes it gets used on near death engines and it tips then over the edge, i killed a CVH with flush, i flushed it and it then leaked all over the place, it wasn't the flush that killed it directly it was the seals that leaked like sivs after they where cleaned, i am in no doubt many an unsklilled home mechanic has at some time killed an engine by using the wornge tool at the wronge time but do you blame the workman or the tool.
Edited by S0 What on Thursday 23 November 17:42
The higher grade stuff does a job but it’s either preventative maintenance on a newer car (which as other have said isn’t really needed with modern oils) or it’s ‘kill or cure’ on an old car where it may well fix a problem but there’s always a risk that there will be nasty side effects. Of course it isn’t going to destroy every car it’s used on, but there is more risk than I’d want to take personally.
Nanook said:
Soooo... you sold a product?
Are you a mechanic? A mechanical engineer? A chemical engineer? Why do people come up with such elaborate job descriptions these days?!
Since you're so well versed on these figures that you can't provide, can you give some sort of indication as to the frequency of failure of the product to work properly?
Are we talking 1 in 10,000? 1 in 100,000?
A product manager - I work with the people you mentioned to identify what people want to buy, what will sell well and generate a decent margin. I inherited a range of cheap products which didn’t do much just as the higher strength stuff became available and the Good Garage Scheme launched. We looked at the more expensive stuff from a couple of suppliers but didn’t launch it until after I moved roles (additives are a very small part of the range when compared to oil, coolant etc).Are you a mechanic? A mechanical engineer? A chemical engineer? Why do people come up with such elaborate job descriptions these days?!
Since you're so well versed on these figures that you can't provide, can you give some sort of indication as to the frequency of failure of the product to work properly?
Are we talking 1 in 10,000? 1 in 100,000?
Frequency, no idea, we weren’t selling massive quantities and our product wasn’t great (but was 1/10 price of Forte).
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