RE: The half-price Toyota GT86: Spotted

[culpz]

I've defended Toyota's cheap sports car several times before. I just feel like the whole point in this car is completely missed, by many. However, with that being said, i've also never really understood their disregard to address this and make a hotter one with a bit more power.

I'm not talking bonkers stuff here or even FI, but just something to keep those power-heads at bay. The fact that they've made a few little updates/tweaks here and there has been a bit frustrating. The best idea, for me, was the completely spartan-spec model with plastic bumpers.

[philwhite]

As expected another GT86 debate ends discussing perceived lack of power. Funny thing is, my GT86 never feels slow when I'm driving it, only when talking I'm about it! I really don't care about other drives when I'm driving it, I know I'd never be having as much fun in a TDi hatchback.

I don't think anyone buys one expecting to win drag races, they're squarely aimed at driving enthusiasts who value a good chassis, steering feel and driving position above big bhp numbers, or they're into the modding scene. I believe the reason the residuals are so go is that people are buying then outright, and hanging on to them. I bought mine with the intention of it being a 10+ year car.

Edited by philwhite on Thursday 23 November 14:19

[Tuvra]

havoc said:

Tuvra said:

dunc_sx said:

Power is about right in my opinion.

Dunc.

It has 197bhp in a world where diesel Golf's and Focus' come with 185bhp so I strongly disagree

And why do the repmobile power wars matter to you, unless you're insecure enough you need to dominate the traffic lights?

The car I yearn for most (well, affordable one) is another DC2 - that's got 187bhp and f'all torque, so a Golf GTD would in the real world be as quick in a straight line, despite the 200kg weight disadvantage. Does that make me want a GTD instead? Does it f***!

Do behave! Who said anything about wanting a GTD?!?

You realise that a DC2 was released in 1995 (22 years ago) and is almost as powerful, lighter and faster than a 2017 GT86? And that's my point, 197bhp in this day and age is poor. Having lived with one, it didn't even feel like 200bhp either TBH.

[CABC]

Tuvra said:

You realise that a DC2 was released in 1995 (22 years ago) and is almost as powerful, lighter and faster than a 2017 GT86? And that's my point, 197bhp in this day and age is poor. Having lived with one, it didn't even feel like 200bhp either TBH.

what other modern na car gives 100hp/litre?
it is 2017. emissions and safety regs are different.

the 'problem' with this car is that the gearbox needs to be used.

[havoc]

Tuvra said:

Having lived with one, it didn't even feel like 200bhp either TBH.

That I get - see post on prior page about the dip in the torque curve from 3,000rpm.

I had something similar in my first 'teg after an indy had done the cambelt change while I was on holiday - engine felt all wrong, no pull at all in the mid-range.
(they insisted there was no problem, so I got it dyno'd and there was a big hole between 3,000 and 4,500. Got another garage to have a quick look and the cambelt alignment was about half a tooth out (!?!) - to which they asked if the car had ever had some work on the head (e.g. skimmed / wrong-thickness gasket fitted). Original indy denied any knowledge at all and I couldn't prove anything, but I suspect they'd mucked up the fitting and bent a valve (or thrashed and overheated her), then fitted the wrong gasket when fixing it - B18 has 3 different options)

[350Matt]

Tuvra said:

Do behave! Who said anything about wanting a GTD?!?

You realise that a DC2 was released in 1995 (22 years ago) and is almost as powerful, lighter and faster than a 2017 GT86? And that's my point, 197bhp in this day and age is poor. Having lived with one, it didn't even feel like 200bhp either TBH.

they're not 200bhp

more like 185 on most examples
just check the myriad dyno tests for these cars

[Ahbefive]

havoc said:

Tuvra said:

dunc_sx said:

Power is about right in my opinion.

Dunc.

It has 197bhp in a world where diesel Golf's and Focus' come with 185bhp so I strongly disagree

And why do the repmobile power wars matter to you, unless you're insecure enough you need to dominate the traffic lights?

What is insecure about someone finding it hard to be thrilled by the pace of a diesel golf???

"Insecure" seems the new put down adjective thrown about for just about everything.

[Black S2K]

philwhite said:

As expected another GT86 debate ends discussing perceived lack of power. Funny thing is, my GT86 never feels slow when I'm driving it, only when talking I'm about it! I really don't care about other drives when I'm driving it, I know I'd never be having as much fun in a TDi hatchback.

I don't think anyone buys one expecting to win drag races, they're squarely aimed at driving enthusiasts who value a good chassis, steering feel and driving position above big bhp numbers, or they're into the modding scene. I believe the reason the residuals are so go is that people are buying then outright, and hanging on to them. I bought mine with the intention of it being a 10+ year car.

Edited by philwhite on Thursday 23 November 14:19

Same here...agree completely!

[SidewaysSi]

If this car had proper back seats, it would be one of the very few new cars I would buy.

RWD, skinny tyres, LSD and slide able on road are what I look for in a daily driver.

[soad]

CABC said:

what other modern na car gives 100hp/litre?
it is 2017. emissions and safety regs are different.

the 'problem' with this car is that the gearbox needs to be used.

Which you can't do in most cities. Peak time traffic is simply awful.

[CABC]

soad said:

CABC said:

what other modern na car gives 100hp/litre?
it is 2017. emissions and safety regs are different.

the 'problem' with this car is that the gearbox needs to be used.

Which you can't do in most cities. Peak time traffic is simply awful.

fair point.
I'm a massive fan of this car, but that's for flowing b-road use with some practicality. for pure driving pleasure under 50k there's little to compete. It has the ethos of an 80/90s hot hatch in many ways, certainly not a modern fast hatch.
For stop start city grind or for for fast Mway then a GT86 is not the solution.
It is a little frustrating that this of all forums cannot get to grips with why NA is desirable in a driver's car and that 100hp/tonne is a leading figure in 2017 (VTEC is long dead, however unfortunate that might be).

[s m]

SidewaysSi said:

If this car had proper back seats, it would be one of the very few new cars I would buy.

[TooMany2cvs]

soad said:

CABC said:

what other modern na car gives 100hp/litre?
it is 2017. emissions and safety regs are different.

the 'problem' with this car is that the gearbox needs to be used.

Which you can't do in most cities. Peak time traffic is simply awful.

Another 100bhp wouldn't be much benefit, either.

[Tuvra]

CABC said:

what other modern na car gives 100hp/litre?
it is 2017. emissions and safety regs are different.

the 'problem' with this car is that the gearbox needs to be used.

Again, what's your point? Simply shows that they haven't moved with the times. Or are you trying to tell me Toyota know something (by not using forced induction) that no other manufacturers know? Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, Alfa Romeo, AMG, BMW all gone down the Turbo route.......probably for safety and emission regulations as you rightly said.

I said this car should have been produced as it was with an ADDITIONAL hot version sitting in the range above it. A GT86 TRD or GT86S/T.

Unlike the majority it seems, I have no preference on badge, driven wheels, induction, cylinders, gearboxes or body shapes. I have driven all kinds of cars and judge them on a car by car basis. The GT86 engine and power delivery left me totally disappointed, I'll never forget the time I opened it up that first time - I thought it was broke

As I said, I didn't love or hate the one I had, it was just one of the most disappointing cars I have driven, probably because of the reviews I had read and the expectations that I had for it.

It was by no means a bad car

[WCZ]

SidewaysSi said:

If this car had proper back seats, it would be one of the very few new cars I would buy.

RWD, skinny tyres, LSD and slide able on road are what I look for in a daily driver.

can't you just put skinny/crappy tyres on any rwd if you like sliding?

[CABC]

Tuvra said:

Again, what's your point?

It was by no means a bad car

simply that as NA goes, 100/litre is high these days.
NA still holds some virtues. You have to use the power and revs, not rely on torque as I know you know. that's a preference for some people. Others are all going turbo, but they're not necessarily better driver's cars because of it.
They're plenty of turbo cars there now for people to choose from, but they normally compromised in other areas (heavy, too big, dull chassis, lag), it's good to have some variety. All cars are a compromise. For me, I lean towards 86, Lotus, MX5, Alpine. Whereas various hot hatches leave me cold as they're too compromised (for me) in other respects. Thankfully I don't regularly commute in bad traffic so can indulge my preferences. There is no 'best' car in my books, optimal fleet maybe.

[Tuvra]

CABC said:

simply that as NA goes, 100/litre is high these days.
NA still holds some virtues. You have to use the power and revs, not rely on torque as I know you know. that's a preference for some people. Others are all going turbo, but they're not necessarily better driver's cars because of it.
They're plenty of turbo cars there now for people to choose from, but they normally compromised in other areas (heavy, too big, dull chassis, lag), it's good to have some variety. All cars are a compromise. For me, I lean towards 86, Lotus, MX5, Alpine. Whereas various hot hatches leave me cold as they're too compromised (for me) in other respects. Thankfully I don't regularly commute in bad traffic so can indulge my preferences. There is no 'best' car in my books, optimal fleet maybe.

I think Lotus only offer one normally aspirated car nowadays and the Alpine is turbocharged. So again, I think they've missed the point. It's like saying "we've made the best 1080p Screen on the market" when everyone else has moved on to 4K. I just think Toyota missed the boat, I really do. This from Evo sums up how I felt when I had the GT86 (granted its for a BRZ):-

And the BRZ? Well, on this one road it reveals its many sides – dazzling with a jaw-dropping balance across the top of the mountain, which runs flat and fast, corners well sighted to allow maximum commitment. Here the BRZ edges even the Renault, tucking into fast third- and fourth-gear corners with no understeer, rear axle excited into just a degree or two of understeer-zapping slip, flat-four barping its crisp note right at the peak of its power curve… But as the road starts to drop away and retracts into blind hairpins or sequences of tight left-right combinations, the lack of torque once again frustrates and the brilliant composure can feel rather like an uninterested attitude. The zone where it comes alive is out of reach. Do the road in reverse and without the benefit of the steep downhill gradient and the BRZ feels plain slow and a bit dull.

That’s the crux of the issue. The BRZ does much brilliantly but you really have to work hard to reveal its magic. There’s oversteer fun to be had but it’s mainly in very quick corners – hardly the accessible thrills we’d expected. The BRZ does display some of its innate hooligan if you throw it at a corner on the brakes, but you need to be mighty fast to stay on top of it and very committed on the throttle to stop it flicking back the other way. And the more you seek out that elusive moment of magic, the more the lack of torque frustrates and the faster you go until you find yourself in a vicious circle of cheek-puffing effort and clumsy provocation, all to no avail. I hate to say it but the BRZ feels like it needs more power or a wet surface to fulfil its obvious and tantalising potential.

[CABC]

Tuvra said:

<Evo>

I agree with that.
conclusions are:
- I think the 86 is a worthy car. very rewarding when on right roads
- it's not perfect, more horses/torque needed
- Toyota should have offered something over 5 years on the market

Then again, the UK (Europe) market seems more resistant to mods than other markets. Japan, Oz, US all bought in bigger numbers and modded straightaway. For tasteful mods, I think the Cosworth sounds beautifully rumbly yet refined and not Max Power at all.

[philwhite]

CABC said:

Then again, the UK (Europe) market seems more resistant to mods than other markets. Japan, Oz, US all bought in bigger numbers and modded straightaway. For tasteful mods, I think the Cosworth sounds beautifully rumbly yet refined and not Max Power at all.

This is very true, I cannot think of any other currently produced car that has as vast array of performance and cosmetic mods available as the 86! The Cosworth supercharger is a great bit of kit, OEM in quality. It's a shame it was never offered through the dealer network, keeping the warranty.

[Tuvra]

philwhite said:

CABC said:

Then again, the UK (Europe) market seems more resistant to mods than other markets. Japan, Oz, US all bought in bigger numbers and modded straightaway. For tasteful mods, I think the Cosworth sounds beautifully rumbly yet refined and not Max Power at all.

This is very true, I cannot think of any other currently produced car that has as vast array of performance and cosmetic mods available as the 86! The Cosworth supercharger is a great bit of kit, OEM in quality. It's a shame it was never offered through the dealer network, keeping the warranty.