RE: Rover (P6) 3500 V8: Spotted
Discussion
I absolutely love these cars....makes you question the progress that's been made over the years. I bet this car outrides pretty much any current executive car, all the time weighing not much more than a current Ford Focus. As someone else has said, these look quite small now compared with your modern saloon, but do we really need a bigger car than this?
Comes from an era when there was genuine innovation and substance came ahead of style....the opposite to so many modern vehicles which are way to big on the road whilst not offering a huge amount of interior space...
Comes from an era when there was genuine innovation and substance came ahead of style....the opposite to so many modern vehicles which are way to big on the road whilst not offering a huge amount of interior space...
greenarrow said:
I absolutely love these cars....makes you question the progress that's been made over the years. I bet this car outrides pretty much any current executive car, all the time weighing not much more than a current Ford Focus. As someone else has said, these look quite small now compared with your modern saloon, but do we really need a bigger car than this?
Comes from an era when there was genuine innovation and substance came ahead of style....the opposite to so many modern vehicles which are way to big on the road whilst not offering a huge amount of interior space...
Agree with your sentiment, had a Triumph 2500`S` back in the day & really wonder what it would have morphed into had it, & Triumph, survived the intervening years.Comes from an era when there was genuine innovation and substance came ahead of style....the opposite to so many modern vehicles which are way to big on the road whilst not offering a huge amount of interior space...
Problem with a cars size & shape these days is its all about safety. Airbags, crumple zones, side impact protection, pedestrian safety, passenger safety etc.
IMO the predominant reason we now have the ubiquitous identikit `Eurobox`
Would need competitive monthlies too!!
Those were the days, when the British motor industry came out with this, the Jag E-Type, XJ, the Mini, etc. None were perfect but all genuinely advanced the art of the automobile.
I think the P6's sharp lines have aged well. I imagine the usual TVR-developed versions of the Buick V8 would drop it?
I think the P6's sharp lines have aged well. I imagine the usual TVR-developed versions of the Buick V8 would drop it?
P6s are one of my favourite cars, and a model that has been criminally underappreciated until recently - mostly because of the slow-motion trashing of the Rover marque in the years that followed it.
The V8s are nice and all (smooth, burbly, quick) but I've only ever driven them in auto form (never a 3500S) and the old BorgWarner three-speed doesn't do them many favours. A Series 1 2000TC is my pick, with the twin gloveboxes, strip speedo, aviation-style ergonomic switches and the nice snickety four-speed manual.
They really were a 'British Citroen DS' in the 1960s - unitary frame with unstressed outer panels, clever 'round the corner' front suspension and Rover-tweaked De Dion rear (with a sliding tube to avoid unrefined sliding joints in the driveshafts), inboard rear discs to minimise unsprung weight (and to make servicing as big pain in the backside as possible), undersquare OHC engine that could happily spin away doing over 100mph on the unrestricted motorways, limited crumple zone design and a safety-padded dashboard. As already mentioned it was supposed to ultimately have a gas turbine power unit and before the V8 was sourced Rover looked at an inline-5, possibly with turbocharging. They also considered adapting Citroen-style hydropneumatic suspension (not that it's really needed- a Series 1 P6 has a primary ride not far short of a Citroen in any case) and then built a prototype with Xantia Activa-style roll-correcting hydropneumatics; http://www.federalrovers.com/stabilized-p6
And of couse (three weeks ahead of the Triumph 2000) it was the first 'executive car' as we now know it, between the ordinary likes of the Ford Zephyr and the Hillman Minx and the big, spongey straight-six barges like the Austin Westminster or the Vauxhall Cresta.
It had a chequered racing career too - the big-arched Traco-Olds-engined P6 built up a three-lap lead in the 84-hr 1970 Marathon at the Nurburgring before the propshaft failed. Leyland (then BLMC) never sorted out the funding to campaign the P6 properly. Such a shame that Rover got squeezed between Triumph and Jaguar and the build quality tanked. The P6 was what the independent company could do (plus the Range Rover, the P6BS/P9 and the P8).
The V8s are nice and all (smooth, burbly, quick) but I've only ever driven them in auto form (never a 3500S) and the old BorgWarner three-speed doesn't do them many favours. A Series 1 2000TC is my pick, with the twin gloveboxes, strip speedo, aviation-style ergonomic switches and the nice snickety four-speed manual.
They really were a 'British Citroen DS' in the 1960s - unitary frame with unstressed outer panels, clever 'round the corner' front suspension and Rover-tweaked De Dion rear (with a sliding tube to avoid unrefined sliding joints in the driveshafts), inboard rear discs to minimise unsprung weight (and to make servicing as big pain in the backside as possible), undersquare OHC engine that could happily spin away doing over 100mph on the unrestricted motorways, limited crumple zone design and a safety-padded dashboard. As already mentioned it was supposed to ultimately have a gas turbine power unit and before the V8 was sourced Rover looked at an inline-5, possibly with turbocharging. They also considered adapting Citroen-style hydropneumatic suspension (not that it's really needed- a Series 1 P6 has a primary ride not far short of a Citroen in any case) and then built a prototype with Xantia Activa-style roll-correcting hydropneumatics; http://www.federalrovers.com/stabilized-p6
And of couse (three weeks ahead of the Triumph 2000) it was the first 'executive car' as we now know it, between the ordinary likes of the Ford Zephyr and the Hillman Minx and the big, spongey straight-six barges like the Austin Westminster or the Vauxhall Cresta.
It had a chequered racing career too - the big-arched Traco-Olds-engined P6 built up a three-lap lead in the 84-hr 1970 Marathon at the Nurburgring before the propshaft failed. Leyland (then BLMC) never sorted out the funding to campaign the P6 properly. Such a shame that Rover got squeezed between Triumph and Jaguar and the build quality tanked. The P6 was what the independent company could do (plus the Range Rover, the P6BS/P9 and the P8).
Edited by 2xChevrons on Saturday 2nd December 17:29
huckster6 said:
Phenomenal car.
1) Metroplitan Police had a fleet for traffic duties, augmented by the dashing Triumph 2000.
2) The rallying legend Roger Clarke rallied P6s
3) A derivative of the Rover engine was used in a Repco-Brabham (?) Formula 1, considerably modified.
Roger Clark always said the most satisfying rally result of his long career was neither of his two RAC Rally victories but rather the hauling of a 90 BHP P6 Rover 2000 reg. no "4 KUE" (think about it!) up and down the French alps to a class win and sixth overall on the 1965 Monte Carlo Rally.1) Metroplitan Police had a fleet for traffic duties, augmented by the dashing Triumph 2000.
2) The rallying legend Roger Clarke rallied P6s
3) A derivative of the Rover engine was used in a Repco-Brabham (?) Formula 1, considerably modified.
Bendrix said:
Love seeing these old things although a P5 looks much nicer to my eyes. Would love to read an original road test on them. Anyone?
There's this (from 1972)https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article...
EDIT: Re-reading, you may have meant the P5. Here's a review of the '3 litre Rover' from 1961 (same magazine).
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article...
Edited by Will94 on Saturday 2nd December 17:58
My Mum has still got her 2200SC on blocks in the Garage, she and my Dad bought it new in 1976 and she used it daily till the late 80's. The cover hasn't been off it for at least 10 years now but it was in pretty sound and running condition last time. She's never moved house since she had it so the "Log Book" is the original one from new, along with every bit of paper right back to the dealership's order & spec' sheet.
I'll have to get my bum in gear next year and decide what to do with it as she's having a Bungalow built and won't be able to take it with her when she does move, I don't really want it in my Garage but can't bring myself to sell it as it was so much a part of my Childhood so not really sure what to do with the thing....PRK 442R strange how childhood number plates just stick in your head.
I'll have to get my bum in gear next year and decide what to do with it as she's having a Bungalow built and won't be able to take it with her when she does move, I don't really want it in my Garage but can't bring myself to sell it as it was so much a part of my Childhood so not really sure what to do with the thing....PRK 442R strange how childhood number plates just stick in your head.
Will94 said:
Bendrix said:
Love seeing these old things although a P5 looks much nicer to my eyes. Would love to read an original road test on them. Anyone?
There's this (from 1972)https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article...
EDIT: Re-reading, you may have meant the P5. Here's a review of the '3 litre Rover' from 1961 (same magazine).
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article...
Edited by Will94 on Saturday 2nd December 17:58
mel said:
My Mum has still got her 2200SC on blocks in the Garage, she and my Dad bought it new in 1976 and she used it daily till the late 80's. The cover hasn't been off it for at least 10 years now but it was in pretty sound and running condition last time. She's never moved house since she had it so the "Log Book" is the original one from new, along with every bit of paper right back to the dealership's order & spec' sheet.
I'll have to get my bum in gear next year and decide what to do with it as she's having a Bungalow built and won't be able to take it with her when she does move, I don't really want it in my Garage but can't bring myself to sell it as it was so much a part of my Childhood so not really sure what to do with the thing....PRK 442R strange how childhood number plates just stick in your head.
A one owner from new 2200 is a rare thing indeed, they only made them from late '73 to early '77 and many have either rotted away or become donors for tax exempt 2000s and 3500s. Get it reborn, and running...!I'll have to get my bum in gear next year and decide what to do with it as she's having a Bungalow built and won't be able to take it with her when she does move, I don't really want it in my Garage but can't bring myself to sell it as it was so much a part of my Childhood so not really sure what to do with the thing....PRK 442R strange how childhood number plates just stick in your head.
huckster6 said:
Phenomenal car.
1) Metroplitan Police had a fleet for traffic duties, augmented by the dashing Triumph 2000.
3) A derivative of the Rover engine was used in a Repco-Brabham (?) Formula 1, considerably modified.
Met Police used them for more than just traffic duties. The V8 P6 replaced the Jag S-Types, for not only traffic patrol, but also Area car duties in all areas bar central London divisions, which generally used the Triumph 2.5Pi (and later 2500TC) up until the late 1970's. The last lot of S reg Met P6's weren't retired until about 1979/80 ish.1) Metroplitan Police had a fleet for traffic duties, augmented by the dashing Triumph 2000.
3) A derivative of the Rover engine was used in a Repco-Brabham (?) Formula 1, considerably modified.
They were also used for unmarked duties as well as driver training at Hendon.
And no, the Repco-Brabham V8 wasn't a derivative of the Rover engine, it was based on the similar, but very different designed Olds Jetfire engine.
Loved these cars back in the day!
My cousin bought his Dad's Cameron Green 3500 P6B on a K-plate, and within a year I had bought a manual Mexico Brown 3500S P6B on an L-plate complete with the boot-lid mount for the spare wheel! (To be honest I wanted a 3 litre Capri, but at 20 I couldn't get one insured).
It was a quick car back in 1979 when I got it. Manuals did 0-60 in about 8.5 IIRC. It certainly felt like a rocket-ship to me.
My first, and so far, only V8.
But the "S" didn't come with power steering as standard (the Autos did), so parking was a real work-out! I did test drive a Mexico Red one somewhere near Balham but it had been fitted with a smaller steering wheel - you could only go straight on until you got to at least 20 mph!
I remember collecting a girlfriend from her work-place in Sloane Square and having a bit of fun with a guy in a Corvette who had picked up one of her colleagues all the way along the A3 to Tolworth. It may have been quick, but it rolled like a ship in a swell - the A3 seems quite twisty in one of those at 3 figure speeds! Still the Corvette couldn't get past.
But it rusted for fun! I'd only had it a year when the upper mount for the De-Dion rear axle pulled out of the nearside inner wing - closer inspection revealed that the offside had already been patched up, and this was only a 7 year old car. It was worse than the 70s Fiat it replaced!
I know people have fitted the 5-speed box out of the SD1 - I believe it just requires some surgery on the transmission tunnel to get enough clearance.
One with that mod and a Vitesse engine or a 4 litre version would be great fun, so long as you stiffened the suspension up!
I sold it after 2 years as I had the chance to buy a MKII Granada Ghia for a price I couldn't refuse! It was an Auto (as most were) so I found it slow, but the PAS and handling were a revelation!
But I still have such fond memories of that car. SXD 865L, but it died many years ago.
My cousin bought his Dad's Cameron Green 3500 P6B on a K-plate, and within a year I had bought a manual Mexico Brown 3500S P6B on an L-plate complete with the boot-lid mount for the spare wheel! (To be honest I wanted a 3 litre Capri, but at 20 I couldn't get one insured).
It was a quick car back in 1979 when I got it. Manuals did 0-60 in about 8.5 IIRC. It certainly felt like a rocket-ship to me.
My first, and so far, only V8.But the "S" didn't come with power steering as standard (the Autos did), so parking was a real work-out! I did test drive a Mexico Red one somewhere near Balham but it had been fitted with a smaller steering wheel - you could only go straight on until you got to at least 20 mph!
I remember collecting a girlfriend from her work-place in Sloane Square and having a bit of fun with a guy in a Corvette who had picked up one of her colleagues all the way along the A3 to Tolworth. It may have been quick, but it rolled like a ship in a swell - the A3 seems quite twisty in one of those at 3 figure speeds! Still the Corvette couldn't get past.
But it rusted for fun! I'd only had it a year when the upper mount for the De-Dion rear axle pulled out of the nearside inner wing - closer inspection revealed that the offside had already been patched up, and this was only a 7 year old car. It was worse than the 70s Fiat it replaced!
I know people have fitted the 5-speed box out of the SD1 - I believe it just requires some surgery on the transmission tunnel to get enough clearance.
One with that mod and a Vitesse engine or a 4 litre version would be great fun, so long as you stiffened the suspension up!
I sold it after 2 years as I had the chance to buy a MKII Granada Ghia for a price I couldn't refuse! It was an Auto (as most were) so I found it slow, but the PAS and handling were a revelation!
But I still have such fond memories of that car. SXD 865L, but it died many years ago.
Like everyone else, I have great memories of the P 6. It was our family car from 74 to the end of the 80s. We had the 2000sc so it wasn't quick but it could corner quickly as long as you didn't turn in too fast.
Great design features like the front side lights having prisms at the top so you could see the ends of the wings in the dark. Also all the light/wiper/ hazard knobs were different shapes so you could find them by feel.
Once I'd passed, I had many thousands of miles in it. One trip around Scotland starting in London with friends camping. I even had the wheels off the ground on an unexpected hump back bridge, and it looked after us, although my Dad did find the bump stop on the drive a couple of weeks later
Great design features like the front side lights having prisms at the top so you could see the ends of the wings in the dark. Also all the light/wiper/ hazard knobs were different shapes so you could find them by feel.
Once I'd passed, I had many thousands of miles in it. One trip around Scotland starting in London with friends camping. I even had the wheels off the ground on an unexpected hump back bridge, and it looked after us, although my Dad did find the bump stop on the drive a couple of weeks later
Spen King's masterpiece.I drove the hell out of my '73 Mexico Brown 3500S (TTS874M - if the chap I sold it to in 2008 is reading this, I'd love to hear from him!) for eight years, 1984-1992, bought as a one-lady-owner-from-new car for not much cash after my Mk2 Capri 1600E was nicked and burnt out. It was probably the most reliable car I've owned.
I did a few minor mods, Lumenition for one (doing the points soon got old), and a header tank off an Austin 1100 to stop it chucking coolant overboard on startup. The gearbox was none too strong for the V8, and mine eventually broke a layshaft on reverse. Got a replacement NOS box that only had 11,000 miles on it when I took the car off the road (it really needed welding for the next MoT, and the lack of rear seatbelts was a problem as I had a baby son).
Rot was always the problem with these, and 16 years in a damp lockup finished mine. I honestly wish someone had stolen it to restore (the lockup did get broken into repeatedly, but the car was never damaged other than the rear windscreen getting smashed), and it eventually went to a chap in Loxwood, on the Surrey/West Sussex borders, near Dunsfold. I recall (I think) that he was called Alan and worked for Southern Water. He had another, rather higher-mileage P6 3500S in the rather lurid "Paprika" paint, and was going to use mine as a parts donor. He did phone me up a little while later, having got my car running, but the rot was so bad that there was no question of its being restored.
Such a shame - it was an utterly brilliant car, returned 20-25mpg depending how hard it was driven (best I saw on a run was nearly 29mpg), handled with unbelievable security considering how little tyre area it had (185-section rubber!), rode as well as any Jag, wafted my centenarian great-aunt around just as capably as it attacked Surrey B-roads tower-bashing with a bunch of bell-ringers... and at an indicated 120mph up the M4 (those were the days!), the loudest noise was the Keinzle clock on the dash. The V8 did sound good when being revved, especially when the exhaust fell off at 6am one Sunday...
Would I recommend these? Absolutely - but only if you have a heated garage, and are prepared to pressure-wash mud, salt and suchlike out from under the car. A 5-speed manual gearbox swap (or a ZF 4HP22 auto swap) is well worth doing - either way, it's best to start out with a Borg-Warner 3-speed auto car, as the transmission tunnel on them is wider than the manual cars. Displacement increases up to 5 litres have been done, probably worthwhile to make it reasonably quick, and fuel injection has been done - the EFI setup out of the SD1 and Range Rover is the most common, but Megasquirt etc are also applicable.
The Traco-Repco unit is closely related to the Rover V8 through Oldsmobile. It was originally developed for a turbocharged variant of the Olds that shared the Buick V8, hence there are six head-bolts per cylinder rather than five. Later iron-block Buick small-blocks based on the same bore spacing had only four. The prototypes of the Traco-Repco were just Oldsmobile blocks with custom overhead-cam heads cast by the Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation, the stock cam removed and its housing ground out and filled with Araldite... the bodge was good enough to prove the concept, but the racing engines used heavily redesigned blocks also cast by CAC, as the Olds blocks gave so much trouble. In the end, I think only the deck height and bore centre spacing remained from the original design.
There's also a six-litre version of the Rover V8, known as the "Wildcat", which has Siamesed liners to push the bore out beyond what is otherwise possible, to 4 inches. These appear to use specially-made Oldsmobile-type six-bolt blocks.
I did a few minor mods, Lumenition for one (doing the points soon got old), and a header tank off an Austin 1100 to stop it chucking coolant overboard on startup. The gearbox was none too strong for the V8, and mine eventually broke a layshaft on reverse. Got a replacement NOS box that only had 11,000 miles on it when I took the car off the road (it really needed welding for the next MoT, and the lack of rear seatbelts was a problem as I had a baby son).
Rot was always the problem with these, and 16 years in a damp lockup finished mine. I honestly wish someone had stolen it to restore (the lockup did get broken into repeatedly, but the car was never damaged other than the rear windscreen getting smashed), and it eventually went to a chap in Loxwood, on the Surrey/West Sussex borders, near Dunsfold. I recall (I think) that he was called Alan and worked for Southern Water. He had another, rather higher-mileage P6 3500S in the rather lurid "Paprika" paint, and was going to use mine as a parts donor. He did phone me up a little while later, having got my car running, but the rot was so bad that there was no question of its being restored.
Such a shame - it was an utterly brilliant car, returned 20-25mpg depending how hard it was driven (best I saw on a run was nearly 29mpg), handled with unbelievable security considering how little tyre area it had (185-section rubber!), rode as well as any Jag, wafted my centenarian great-aunt around just as capably as it attacked Surrey B-roads tower-bashing with a bunch of bell-ringers... and at an indicated 120mph up the M4 (those were the days!), the loudest noise was the Keinzle clock on the dash. The V8 did sound good when being revved, especially when the exhaust fell off at 6am one Sunday...
Would I recommend these? Absolutely - but only if you have a heated garage, and are prepared to pressure-wash mud, salt and suchlike out from under the car. A 5-speed manual gearbox swap (or a ZF 4HP22 auto swap) is well worth doing - either way, it's best to start out with a Borg-Warner 3-speed auto car, as the transmission tunnel on them is wider than the manual cars. Displacement increases up to 5 litres have been done, probably worthwhile to make it reasonably quick, and fuel injection has been done - the EFI setup out of the SD1 and Range Rover is the most common, but Megasquirt etc are also applicable.
The Traco-Repco unit is closely related to the Rover V8 through Oldsmobile. It was originally developed for a turbocharged variant of the Olds that shared the Buick V8, hence there are six head-bolts per cylinder rather than five. Later iron-block Buick small-blocks based on the same bore spacing had only four. The prototypes of the Traco-Repco were just Oldsmobile blocks with custom overhead-cam heads cast by the Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation, the stock cam removed and its housing ground out and filled with Araldite... the bodge was good enough to prove the concept, but the racing engines used heavily redesigned blocks also cast by CAC, as the Olds blocks gave so much trouble. In the end, I think only the deck height and bore centre spacing remained from the original design.
There's also a six-litre version of the Rover V8, known as the "Wildcat", which has Siamesed liners to push the bore out beyond what is otherwise possible, to 4 inches. These appear to use specially-made Oldsmobile-type six-bolt blocks.
On the "LFA in the background" thing - the stocklist at that dealer isn't shabby at all - it's also awash with tonnes of "POA" stuff but they priced the 575M SuperAmerica F1 and I'm still chuckling at the idea of paying over £300K for a car with THAT gearbox (you'd have to be bonkers)
aeropilot said:
huckster6 said:
Phenomenal car.
1) Metroplitan Police had a fleet for traffic duties, augmented by the dashing Triumph 2000.
3) A derivative of the Rover engine was used in a Repco-Brabham (?) Formula 1, considerably modified.
Met Police used them for more than just traffic duties. The V8 P6 replaced the Jag S-Types, for not only traffic patrol, but also Area car duties in all areas bar central London divisions, which generally used the Triumph 2.5Pi (and later 2500TC) up until the late 1970's. The last lot of S reg Met P6's weren't retired until about 1979/80 ish.1) Metroplitan Police had a fleet for traffic duties, augmented by the dashing Triumph 2000.
3) A derivative of the Rover engine was used in a Repco-Brabham (?) Formula 1, considerably modified.
They were also used for unmarked duties as well as driver training at Hendon.
And no, the Repco-Brabham V8 wasn't a derivative of the Rover engine, it was based on the similar, but very different designed Olds Jetfire engine.
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