RE: Alpine A110: Driven

[bcr5784]

CABC said:

Heck, do the Porsche thing of quoting weight of a base car and offering free options!

I think it's refreshing that they (seem to be) quoting real weights. Once upon a time Caterham used to quote the weight of any option - even quoting the weight of the optional paint. Now even they are quoting power to weight figures that are fanciful.

[HighwayStar]

How It's Made... I love seeing how stuff is built. This looks like pre-production training....
Certainly more labour intensive than Porsche, understandable at the production level.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkgzjoEAb-M

[nickfrog]

kambites said:

nickfrog said:

kambites said:

it's nothing special for its class. A bit like this Alpine, really.

You're really hard to please !

You've taken that slightly out of context. I was referring purely to the weight figure, it sounds like the Alpine is an exceptional car overall.

I didn't mean to as I was referring purely to the weight figure which I find exceptional for the level of comfort/NVH, but I am sure you knew that.

[jonby]

bcr5784 said:

I think it's refreshing that they (seem to be) quoting real weights. Once upon a time Caterham used to quote the weight of any option - even quoting the weight of the optional paint. Now even they are quoting power to weight figures that are fanciful.

Indeed - their claim is that the 1080kg (1103 for the premiere edition) is what the car will weight, wet & fully fuelled, if a tester sticks it on their scales. That's quite a boast .

[Quickmoose]

bcr5784 said:

I think we were all talking about the weight figure! The weight has also to be viewed in the context of a torsional stiffness of 22000nm/degree - twice as stiff as an Elise and 50% stiffer than a 4C

Blimey, that's pretty impressive...

[SpudLink]

bcr5784 said:

The only vaguely comparable "driver focussed" cars I can think of are Alfa (4C - auto) and Lotus - and Lotus don't offer an auto on the Elise. More than half Evora owners choose auto, despite the fact that it's a very poor automatic. Oddly enough the fastest Caterhams have a semi auto box (Sadev) and I can't recally any test complaining it wasn't a manual.

Graham Macdonald, boss of Caterham, prefers the manual in his 620. He was at Silverstone for a PH Sunday Service, chatting and giving passenger laps. He explained that his own car has the ‘S’ badge but is actually ‘R’ spec except with the manual gearbox, which customers can only get in the ‘S’ spec. I guess there’s an economic argument for not letting customers have the same choice.

[jonby]

bcr5784 said:

kambites said:

Well they'll be able to be serviced anywhere full-stop, just like any other car. Some people like using franchised dealers though and finance deals tend to insist on it.

It'd be great if Renault give all of their Renault franchised dealers Alpine franchises for servicing... we'll see.

Would make life a lot simpler if they did. However Renault are trying to establish Alpine as their premium brand - a la Lexus and Toyota, Infiniti and Nissan - and insisting of separate showrooms for Alpine. The public have only themselves to blame - they get hung up on brands and the car manufacturers are happy to prey on their prejudices. Personally I wouldn't care if showrooms were shared - but there is plenty of evidence of brand snobbery amongst (for example) Porsche buyers - some of whom wouldn't dream of buying a "Renault".

I'm not sure they can really win on this front

If you ordered a premiere edition car, you will be contacted with the name of the allocated dealer soon. In my instance, I assume that will be manchester which is only 10 miles from where I live

If there are say between 100 & 200 UK cars out of the 1955 launch cars, that's only 15-30 cars per dealer. Obviously there are the non launch cars to come and then the other variants (hotter version, convertible perhaps) and in time, completely new models, but I still seem to recall they were thinking just 5-10k cars p.a. globally, so perhaps only 1,000 UK cars give or take a few hundred. The point being, there is a limit to how many UK Alpine dealerships the brand can support

So if they allow servicing at any renault dealership, the dedicated alpine dealerships won't be able to rely on servicing revenue from all the alpine cars which they sell, which I imagine is important to the business model given the investment they will have to make in space, equipment & staff to run an Alpine dealership. It also means they won't be able to control service - I assume there will be an aim (hopefully fulfilled) to make the Alpine dealerships offer better levels of service to customers than a standard renault dealership. Plus you can't expect renault dealerships to stock any parts or consumables unique to Alpine. I get why it will be frustrating for those who don't live close to an Alpine dealership, but I suspect it's the only realistic way for it to work.

[bcr5784]

jonby said:

I'm not sure they can really win on this front

If you ordered a premiere edition car, you will be contacted with the name of the allocated dealer soon. In my instance, I assume that will be manchester which is only 10 miles from where I live

If there are say between 100 & 200 UK cars out of the 1955 launch cars, that's only 15-30 cars per dealer. Obviously there are the non launch cars to come and then the other variants (hotter version, convertible perhaps) and in time, completely new models, but I still seem to recall they were thinking just 5-10k cars p.a. globally, so perhaps only 1,000 UK cars give or take a few hundred. The point being, there is a limit to how many UK Alpine dealerships the brand can support

So if they allow servicing at any renault dealership, the dedicated alpine dealerships won't be able to rely on servicing revenue from all the alpine cars which they sell, which I imagine is important to the business model given the investment they will have to make in space, equipment & staff to run an Alpine dealership. It also means they won't be able to control service - I assume there will be an aim (hopefully fulfilled) to make the Alpine dealerships offer better levels of service to customers than a standard renault dealership. Plus you can't expect renault dealerships to stock any parts or consumables unique to Alpine. I get why it will be frustrating for those who don't live close to an Alpine dealership, but I suspect it's the only realistic way for it to work.

You might well be right - but I hope not. The A110 won't be a serious earner for either Alpine or the dealers in the short term - it's all really about establishing the brand and selling SUVs (Sad but that's the way of the world) While it's quite nice to have a 911 or Box as a courtesy car when the Cayman goes in for work, I'd prefer to be charged half as much and have hatchback.

[CABC]

franchised dealerships need fully trained personnel. true the numpty that does you're oil change may not be world's best mechanic but they do have specialists there. In any case, given the tight packaging and possible foibles of this new model I'd choose a dealer with experience, so 7 dealerships for now is not too bad.

[NDNDNDND]

bcr5784 said:

Oddly enough the fastest Caterhams have a semi auto box (Sadev) and I can't recally any test complaining it wasn't a manual.

The Sadev gearbox has a conventional, manual clutch and a mechanical lever to the gearbox. It is a manual gearbox. Much like a motorbike, I believe it also requires the use of the clutch pedal for every gearshift that isn't a full-bore upshift (and even that requires a throttle lift, unless a flatshifter has been installed), provided you have some degree of mechanical sympathy. The Sadev box is very hardcore, and the complete opposite end of the spectrum to a computer-controlled DCT. To conflate the two is inaccurate.

bcr5784 said:

More than half Evora owners choose auto, despite the fact that it's a very poor automatic.

This is probably closer to the sad reality. The majority of sports car buyers would take a poor automatic over an excellent manual gearshift. Why? Because most sports car buyers are more interested in owning a sports car than they are in driving one.

[bcr5784]

CABC said:

franchised dealerships need fully trained personnel. true the numpty that does you're oil change may not be world's best mechanic but they do have specialists there. In any case, given the tight packaging and possible foibles of this new model I'd choose a dealer with experience, so 7 dealerships for now is not too bad.

Obviously for any significant fault I'd want someone with training to look at the car. Annual servicing on the vast majority of cars is something any competent mechanic (or yours truly) can do. I don't do it any more - part idleness, part concern (particularly with Porsche) what future owners might think. I think garages are better than they were, but experience in the (fairly distant) past leads me to believe I'd do a better job than many.

[bcr5784]

NDNDNDND said:

The Sadev gearbox has a conventional, manual clutch and a mechanical lever to the gearbox. It is a manual gearbox. Much like a motorbike, I believe it also requires the use of the clutch pedal for every gearshift that isn't a full-bore upshift (and even that requires a throttle lift, unless a flatshifter has been installed), provided you have some degree of mechanical sympathy. The Sadev box is very hardcore, and the complete opposite end of the spectrum to a computer-controlled DCT. To conflate the two is inaccurate.
.

While your right about the mechanics - the general argument for the manual gearbox is so you can sample the tactile delights of a manual gearchange. It's a bit hard to say that of the Sadev box, and if you have Geartronix operation impossible. My point is when you get to the really hardcore end of things the delights of heel and toe gearchanges take a back seat. While I habitually use H&T in manual cars I can't get religion over a Heath Robinson solution to the ergonomic error which results in the need to press 3 pedals with 2 feet.

[CABC]

bcr5784 said:

The weight has also to be viewed in the context of a torsional stiffness of 22000nm/degree - twice as stiff as an Elise and 50% stiffer than a 4C

Edited by bcr5784 on Wednesday 10th January 10:35

is there any real benefit to this level of stiffness?
I know progress in this area has been relevant in the nineties and noughties, but the gain is now minimal/non-existent??
The Elise tub is hardly flexible in any way! Given the improvements in stiffness I'd lost even more weight instead, although maybe this extra stiffness is just a by-product of the chassis meeting safety regs?

[bcr5784]

CABC said:

is there any real benefit to this level of stiffness?
I know progress in this area has been relevant in the nineties and noughties, but the gain is now minimal/non-existent??
The Elise tub is hardly flexible in any way! Given the improvements in stiffness I'd lost even more weight instead, although maybe this extra stiffness is just a by-product of the chassis meeting safety regs?

Seems about par for the course (relative to weight) for a car to feel rigid and have good refinement. A 911 (coupe) is about 30,000 - but much heavier so similarly stiff relatively. A 911 cab is 12000 or so - and feels dreadfully floppy. Solidly built saloons a bit stiffer, but heavier - a Golf GTI V is 25000. http://youwheel.com/home/2016/06/20/car-body-torsi... gives some figures.

A 981 Cayman is 40000! Hence my comment about it being needlessly stiff because it uses the Boxster floorpan (which is just under 20000, and very stiff for an open car both objectively and subjectively.

[Krikkit]

bcr5784 said:

CABC said:

is there any real benefit to this level of stiffness?
I know progress in this area has been relevant in the nineties and noughties, but the gain is now minimal/non-existent??
The Elise tub is hardly flexible in any way! Given the improvements in stiffness I'd lost even more weight instead, although maybe this extra stiffness is just a by-product of the chassis meeting safety regs?

Seems about par for the course (relative to weight) for a car to feel rigid and have good refinement. A 911 (coupe) is about 30,000 - but much heavier so similarly stiff relatively. A 911 cab is 12000 or so - and feels dreadfully floppy. Solidly built saloons a bit stiffer, but heavier - a Golf GTI V is 25000. http://youwheel.com/home/2016/06/20/car-body-torsi... gives some figures.

A 981 Cayman is 40000! Hence my comment about it being needlessly stiff because it uses the Boxster floorpan (which is just under 20000, and very stiff for an open car both objectively and subjectively.

What a brilliant site! Thanks.

Would explain why the MX5 feels like a blancmange (good as it is, it's shockingly wobbly). Also quite interesting is the difference on BMW saloons between ones with and without folding seats, definitely an option to leave unticked methinks.

The Veyron is really interesting - 60000! Must be a very hewn-from-granite feel.

[CABC]

Krikkit said:

Would explain why the MX5 feels like a blancmange (good as it is, it's shockingly wobbly). .

yes, so odd for an otherwise great car with double wishbones all round.
transformed with a roll bar and bracing though. I don't buy into Mazda's floppy execution of jinba ittai either.

[Equus]

CABC said:

yes, so odd for an otherwise great car with double wishbones all round.

If you want a real laugh, look up the torsional stiffness of a Caterham.

[CABC]

Equus said:

If you want a real laugh, look up the torsional stiffness of a Caterham.

haven't found it yet.... but while searching found this interesting thread
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

[Toltec]

Krikkit said:

bcr5784 said:

CABC said:

is there any real benefit to this level of stiffness?
I know progress in this area has been relevant in the nineties and noughties, but the gain is now minimal/non-existent??
The Elise tub is hardly flexible in any way! Given the improvements in stiffness I'd lost even more weight instead, although maybe this extra stiffness is just a by-product of the chassis meeting safety regs?

Seems about par for the course (relative to weight) for a car to feel rigid and have good refinement. A 911 (coupe) is about 30,000 - but much heavier so similarly stiff relatively. A 911 cab is 12000 or so - and feels dreadfully floppy. Solidly built saloons a bit stiffer, but heavier - a Golf GTI V is 25000. http://youwheel.com/home/2016/06/20/car-body-torsi... gives some figures.

A 981 Cayman is 40000! Hence my comment about it being needlessly stiff because it uses the Boxster floorpan (which is just under 20000, and very stiff for an open car both objectively and subjectively.

What a brilliant site! Thanks.

Would explain why the MX5 feels like a blancmange (good as it is, it's shockingly wobbly). Also quite interesting is the difference on BMW saloons between ones with and without folding seats, definitely an option to leave unticked methinks.

The Veyron is really interesting - 60000! Must be a very hewn-from-granite feel.

Lamborghini Countach 2,600

Assuming that isn't a typo it must be close to folding up if you try to use a jack on one corner.

The weight of the car must have some bearing on how stiff it needs to be?

[bcr5784]

Toltec said:

Lamborghini Countach 2,600

Assuming that isn't a typo it must be close to folding up if you try to use a jack on one corner.

The weight of the car must have some bearing on how stiff it needs to be?

The stiffness required is proportional to weight. If you halve the weight of a car, all things being equal, you need springs half as stiff and therefore need half the stiffness to give similar flex as the suspension moves. If we are getting particular the cars track comes into play - a narrow car, like a Caterham, will need corresponding less stiffness than a humungously wide one.

Edited by bcr5784 on Wednesday 10th January 18:51