RE: Alpine A110: Driven

[samoht]

Boxsters/Caymans usually get compared to various TVRs, the Nissan 350Z/370Z, the Audi TT, and the Lotus Evora and sometimes Elise, plus rarities like the Artega, Farboud, etc.

I think the Evora would count as a good car that's gone up against the Cayman and not had the same market impact, not sure about the rest.

[Too Drunk to Funk]

bcr5784 said:

kambites said:

I think that's a given from what's been said but those who've driven it, but lots of "good cars" have attempted to go up against the Boxster/Cayman and failed miserably. The question is whether it's a great car.

Not sure which "good" cars have really seriously put themselves up against the Cayster. The Alpine is the first to really to take the Cayman (sort of) head on and, in some areas, won.

The 4C wasn’t good and sold accordingly.

[kambites]

samoht said:

Boxsters/Caymans usually get compared to various TVRs, the Nissan 350Z/370Z, the Audi TT, and the Lotus Evora and sometimes Elise, plus rarities like the Artega, Farboud, etc.

I think the Evora would count as a good car that's gone up against the Cayman and not had the same market impact, not sure about the rest.

The TT was of course enormously successful but I wouldn't view it as quite a Cayman competitor. The Z4 and SLK (in mk1 and mk2 guises respectively) were closer and were both good cars and I suppose both sold well but more at the "non-sports car" end of the Boxster's buying spectrum; the 370Z is a good car too. TVRs were, well, TVRs - lovely in their own way but hardly mainstream competition for something like the Cayman.

Where the Cayman has been almost unique over the years is in providing a car which is almost as easy to use as a Golf when you're not in the sports car mood, yet almost as good to drive as an Elise when you are. The Evora is the obvious other example of a car which does the same, but this is the first competing car from a mainstream manufacturer I can think of which might be able to replicate or even improve on that that.

Edited by kambites on Thursday 25th January 07:35

[Squadrone Rosso]

Too Drunk to Funk said:

The 4C wasn’t good and sold accordingly.

Which was such a shame. An own goal by Alfa

[blueg33]

samoht said:

Boxsters/Caymans usually get compared to various TVRs, the Nissan 350Z/370Z, the Audi TT, and the Lotus Evora and sometimes Elise, plus rarities like the Artega, Farboud, etc.

I think the Evora would count as a good car that's gone up against the Cayman and not had the same market impact, not sure about the rest.

The Evora sort of sits between the Cayman and the 911, a bit more expensive than a Cayman, a bit cheaper than an 911. It has back seats and in most cases is faster than the Cayman on paper. I don't thinks its really gone up against the Cayman, but the press has put it up against the Cayman which is different, and probably because its not clear what the competition is. When I bough my first Evora I was considering everything from V8V to 997 C2s.

Basically, I think its a tad simplistic to say any car of this type is pitched directly at x or y models. Each tries to make its own niche so that it appeals to a slightly different set of customer priorities: What ultimately wins the battle appears to be marketing and visibility. Porsche has massive brand awareness, huge flash showrooms. Lotus has none of that, likewise Alfa with the 4c.

So my question is will Alpine win the marketing battle? I doubt it.

[bcr5784]

blueg33 said:

So my question is will Alpine win the marketing battle? I doubt it.

They have started astonishingly well - I'm a fan but wouldn't have believed the huge demand they have created. All the dealers are required to have dedicated Alpine showrooms, so clearly Renault are very serious about creating a premium brand. Porsche have aided the process by producing a decidedly marmite 718 and it appears that Alpine have done a brilliant job of producing a car that meets its design brief. If the A110 is followed by equally impressive SUV then they just might give Porsche a bloody nose. But as you imply the Porsche brand is a tough nut to crack.

[kambites]

I think the fact that the Porsche has gone four-pot turbo will help the Alpine a bit too, because it's removed one of the Porsche's USPs which Renault couldn't have hoped to match.

[blueg33]

It would be really interesting to see a demographic of the typical Cayman buyer, things like what other cars do they own, what is their use of the cayman, where they drive it etc. I have a feeling that there are many Cayman/Porsche owners who buy them because of the badge and bragging rights.

A colleague at work bought a 997 and I asked him if he tried anything else, answer, no, he wanted a Porsche because it was a Porsche. When he saw my Evora he was surprised that it even existed, he was totally unaware. He is now driving some sort of Merc sports car (I use the term loosely), and until Monday when I showed him some pic's he was totally unaware of Alpine too and wouldn't buy one over a Porsche or a Merc, because its not a Porsche or a Merc.

I fear that Alpine are up against this far more than they are up against driving dynamics, gearbox, engine, looks etc.

[kambites]

blueg33 said:

A colleague at work bought a 997 and I asked him if he tried anything else, answer, no, he wanted a Porsche because it was a Porsche. When he saw my Evora he was surprised that it even existed, he was totally unaware.

This has been Lotus' biggest failing with the Evora, IMO. I suspect <10% of 911 buyers realise the Evora exists, and <1% actually drive one. Whether Alpine can avoid the same thing, remains to be seen but the rarity of the dealers wont help.

With respect to the whole "buying a Porsche for the badge" thing, I suspect there's a strong correlation between those who buy for the badge and those who don't care about dynamics anyway, so from that point of view Lotus/Alpine probably aren't losing a great deal by these people not knowing about their products. What they need to do is to get is get those people who buy Porsches for their considerable dynamic ability, out on test drives in their cars.

Edited by kambites on Thursday 25th January 10:19

[HighwayStar]

blueg33 said:

The Evora sort of sits between the Cayman and the 911, a bit more expensive than a Cayman, a bit cheaper than an 911. It has back seats and in most cases is faster than the Cayman on paper. I don't thinks its really gone up against the Cayman, but the press has put it up against the Cayman which is different, and probably because its not clear what the competition is. When I bough my first Evora I was considering everything from V8V to 997 C2s.

Basically, I think its a tad simplistic to say any car of this type is pitched directly at x or y models. Each tries to make its own niche so that it appeals to a slightly different set of customer priorities: What ultimately wins the battle appears to be marketing and visibility. Porsche has massive brand awareness, huge flash showrooms. Lotus has none of that, likewise Alfa with the 4c.

So my question is will Alpine win the marketing battle? I doubt it.

I'd say Alpine are a good part of the way there. The initial reviews alone, such praise, is marketing gold. They have the orders. With the A110 being seen as having the basics right it's likely the full road tests will back up those initial reviews. They don't have to ultimately unseat the Cayman. If it is seen as a worthy competitor on it's own merits then Alpine will be fine. Marketing is all well an good but in the end the car has to sell it's sell.
They have done very well already with little marketing. I could speak to everyone in my office and friends and I know all but friend would have heard of Alpine. They have done very well.

Side note... I have a Cayman, my neighbour had never heard of it... He thought Porsche only made 911's. All that marketing.
Those who are into cars know about the new A110.

[HighwayStar]

blueg33 said:

It would be really interesting to see a demographic of the typical Cayman buyer, things like what other cars do they own, what is their use of the cayman, where they drive it etc. I have a feeling that there are many Cayman/Porsche owners who buy them because of the badge and bragging rights.

A colleague at work bought a 997 and I asked him if he tried anything else, answer, no, he wanted a Porsche because it was a Porsche. When he saw my Evora he was surprised that it even existed, he was totally unaware. He is now driving some sort of Merc sports car (I use the term loosely), and until Monday when I showed him some pic's he was totally unaware of Alpine too and wouldn't buy one over a Porsche or a Merc, because its not a Porsche or a Merc.

I fear that Alpine are up against this far more than they are up against driving dynamics, gearbox, engine, looks etc.

I'm with you on the demographic point... my car background is French hot hatches... the proper ones, 205 GTi, 1.9, 306 GTi-6, Clio. Had a few TT's, mainly because I could afford to run what I really wanted... Now I have a 981 CS. it had to be the F6. I always wanted a from the ground up mid engine sports car. Definitely not the badge
I have 4 friends with Pork...2 know their cars. One Cayman R and a 987 Box.. definitely not that badge.
The other 2 friends have 987 Boxsters. One is not a car guy, always wanted a Porsche, no clue about the history or what a F6 is but loves the noise. Definitely about the bad but... he's woken up to what's behind the badge.
The other... he bought he is because we have ours! Didn't buy well either. He believes his RCZ handles better the his Boxster! Nuff said.

So yes, a fair few cars are bought for the bad, the looks and ooh look let me show you (insert gadget/tech of choice)....
Caymans are bought by enthusiasts and badge lovers. The first wave of Alpine buyers will mostly be enthusiasts, off the back of reviews a it will attract more. Some will buy because it's not a Porsche and there will be those simply because yeah mate, it's an Alpine. Not heard of it. Oh it's the latest thing. Trendy.

[bcr5784]

DDg said:

Quite possibly. But, I'm sure I'm not the only one warming to the Alpine in part because it isn't a Porsche. As good a car as a Cayman is, and all Porsches, they're so ubiquitous these days, just a bit too Rolexy-build-a-relationship-with-the-Dealery for me. Then again, maybe I'm just a curmudgeon who consistently makes bad choices...

You're no the only curmudgeon around. Not so bothered about them being ubiquitous, but do rather resent the "designer handbag" aspect of the car. And while I don't really care what anyone else thinks of my car I do feel rather more at home with a Lotus or Caterham. That said Alpine are rather going down the same route with branded watch, luggage etc. Pity - but brand snobbery is alive and well and Alpine can't operate in a purist vacuum.

[blueg33]

HighwayStar said:

Those who are into cars know about the new A110.

I agree, but if as we are speculating they are to beat Porsche Cayman, those buyers won't be enough.

Personally, I would rather they stayed rare and relatively unknown but not at the expense of failing.

[HighwayStar]

blueg33 said:

HighwayStar said:

Those who are into cars know about the new A110.

I agree, but if as we are speculating they are to beat Porsche Cayman, those buyers won't be enough.

Personally, I would rather they stayed rare and relatively unknown but not at the expense of failing.

I don't think the aim is to beat Porsche in the number of sales... The aim surely is that the A110 sells enough to be deemed a success. Of course it's about the sales that come after the launch cars have been delivered.
They aren't going to be produced at Clio levels of production so I do see them being anymore familiar than Caymans on our roads. I live in a town with a Porsche dealership and, apart from mine, I rarely see another Cayman.
I think if Renault had gone full parts bin and cobbled the A110 together, they would've been found out and call out for short cuts and half measures. Doing what they've done was IMO the only way to give the car credibility and show that are serious. I'd imagine all of that would come into play when the hard marketing begins

[kambites]

They are clearly not aiming to sell as many Alpines as Porsche do Caymen, at least not for the foreseeable future. IMO the test will be whether they can pick up a significant proportion of the small part of Porsche's market share which is made up from driving/car enthusiasts.

[HighwayStar]

kambites said:

They are clearly not aiming to sell as many Alpines as Porsche do Caymen, at least not for the foreseeable future. IMO the test will be whether they can pick up a significant proportion of the small part of Porsche's market share which is made up from driving/car enthusiasts.

We understand each other

It'll pull in a few TT customers too.

[bcr5784]

HighwayStar said:

It'll pull in a few TT customers too.

Hope you are right but somehow doubt it. The Audi isn't really a serious driver's car , but does attract because of the quality of its interior. Surely buyers would have to stand their priorities on their heads to buy an Alpine - a Cayman would surely be more attractive.

[blueg33]

HighwayStar said:

I don't think the aim is to beat Porsche in the number of sales... The aim surely is that the A110 sells enough to be deemed a success. Of course it's about the sales that come after the launch cars have been delivered.
They aren't going to be produced at Clio levels of production so I do see them being anymore familiar than Caymans on our roads. I live in a town with a Porsche dealership and, apart from mine, I rarely see another Cayman.
I think if Renault had gone full parts bin and cobbled the A110 together, they would've been found out and call out for short cuts and half measures. Doing what they've done was IMO the only way to give the car credibility and show that are serious. I'd imagine all of that would come into play when the hard marketing begins

I live in a village with a population of 576, the nearest Porsche dealer is about 8 miles away.

I see Caymans everyday, 2 live in the village, there are also aaround 2 Boxsters, driving to and from the motorway a couple of times a week, I see a Cayman pretty much every time and 991's even more frequently. I have excluded the chap in the village who has 10 porsches

I am looking forward to seeing more interesting/unusual cars. There is also a plethora of Astons.

Edited by blueg33 on Thursday 25th January 14:04

[ORD]

No need to guess at Porsche numbers. They are out there in the public domain and are pretty impressive but nothing like numbers for more mundane cars. The Alpine would, I expect, be over the moon to get 911 or maybe even Cayster numbers of sales.

[HighwayStar]

bcr5784 said:

HighwayStar said:

It'll pull in a few TT customers too.

Hope you are right but somehow doubt it. The Audi isn't really a serious driver's car , but does attract because of the quality of its interior. Surely buyers would have to stand their priorities on their heads to buy an Alpine - a Cayman would surely be more attractive.

Ok... Priorities change. I had a TT for a few years until I could get the Cayman I really wanted... Running costs kept me out of one.
As said earlier folk buy cars for all sorts of reasons... Not everyone sitting in a Porsche is a serious driver. Yes TT buyers are attracted by the tech, Quattro, the quality interior etc but there are guys on the TT forum who would be the first to acknowledge they are not drivers cars. The TT served it's purpose for me and the Cayman couldn't come soon enough. Others have moved across to Porsche when the time was right.
The Alpine will also be bought be people who aren't serious drivers, they'll just like the looks. it'll look great on the drive... ooh, see how fast it goes when they give it a prod then back off at a decent bend when we'd get stuck in. Yep. Porsche have those customers too.
And yes some will just dismiss it because, well, never heard of it, it's just a Renault.