RE: Porsche 911 Carrera T: Driven

RE: Porsche 911 Carrera T: Driven

Author
Discussion

Ares

8,026 posts

59 months

Monday 8th January 2018
quotequote all
ORD said:
Good Lord, not that old chestnut again. When a person expresses an opinion, they express an opinion. It adds nothing (apart from avoiding upsetting snowflakes) to add "in my opinion". An opinion is an opinion; it does not need a little badge on it pointing this out.

All IMO, of course.
Actually it does.

That is what separates it from being a fact.

I could say:

"The manual M3 is fking horrific and only an absolutely moron would spec it."

I could also say:

"The R8 Manual is the worse performance car in the world."

I would get, rightly, lambasted, because neither are factually, universally correct. It is the addition of 'In my experience', or 'In my opinion' that makes the points valid. Without highlighting a statement is an opinion, it becomes a factual statement.

See Donald Trump for further examples wink


Ares

8,026 posts

59 months

Monday 8th January 2018
quotequote all
cmoose said:
Ares said:
No. And your final sentence proves the point.

To say 'I prefer a bad manual to a good auto' is fine.
To say 'I find a bad manual to be better than a good auto' is fine.
To say 'I don't like autos so would take a manual, even if it is st' is fine.
To even say ' I think even a bad manual is better than a good auto' is fine.

But to say "Even a bad manual is better than a good auto" is wrong, or written from a point of ignorance, or blinkered, or disingenuous.

Facts Vs Opinions etc....
Your fundamental error here is that you are imposing the status of claimed fact on what was an unambiguous statement of opinion.

We are all (well, mostly!) adults here and you would think that the constant hand holding, qualification and flagging up regarding what are opinions wouldn't be necessary.

The 'I think' 'I find' etc is entirely redundant. If ORD says, 'a bad manual is better than a good auto' it adds nothing to preface that with 'I think'. That's inherent in the statement. Prefacing it with 'I think' doesn't suddenly make his view compatible with somebody who thinks the opposite. He still thinks the other person is wrong, or else he would hold the same opinion. Which he doesn't. It changes nothing.
See above. Of course it does.

"All Cayman drivers are s and couldn't afford a 911" is very different from "All Cayman drivers I know are s and couldn't afford a 911" wink

And someone with a different opinion is not wrong, they just have a different opinion.
Someone that states a fact that is subjective, or simply not correct, is wrong.

HTH wink

cmoose

43,879 posts

168 months

Monday 8th January 2018
quotequote all
Ares said:
Actually it does.

That is what separates it from being a fact.

I could say:

"The manual M3 is fking horrific and only an absolutely moron would spec it."

I could also say:

"The R8 Manual is the worse performance car in the world."

I would get, rightly, lambasted, because neither are factually, universally correct. It is the addition of 'In my experience', or 'In my opinion' that makes the points valid. Without highlighting a statement is an opinion, it becomes a factual statement.

See Donald Trump for further examples wink
You still don't get it (that's a fact wink ). Explicitly denoting what can only be an opinion as an opinion changes absolutely nothing. It doesn't make anything any more or any less valid.

Not explicitly labelling something that can only be an opinion as an opinion does not turn it into a statement of fact.

Ares

8,026 posts

59 months

Monday 8th January 2018
quotequote all
cmoose said:
Ares said:
Actually it does.

That is what separates it from being a fact.

I could say:

"The manual M3 is fking horrific and only an absolutely moron would spec it."

I could also say:

"The R8 Manual is the worse performance car in the world."

I would get, rightly, lambasted, because neither are factually, universally correct. It is the addition of 'In my experience', or 'In my opinion' that makes the points valid. Without highlighting a statement is an opinion, it becomes a factual statement.

See Donald Trump for further examples wink
You still don't get it (that's a fact wink ). Explicitly denoting what can only be an opinion as an opinion changes absolutely nothing. It doesn't make anything any more or any less valid.

Not explicitly labelling something that can only be an opinion as an opinion does not turn it into a statement of fact.
Ok. All Porsche drivers are all s. clap

You're still wrong though wink


cmoose

43,879 posts

168 months

Monday 8th January 2018
quotequote all
Ares said:
See above. Of course it does.

"All Cayman drivers are s and couldn't afford a 911" is very different from "All Cayman drivers I know are s and couldn't afford a 911" wink

And someone with a different opinion is not wrong, they just have a different opinion.
Someone that states a fact that is subjective, or simply not correct, is wrong.

HTH wink
Your example is not opinion versus fact. It's two somewhat different claims containing different information.

Moreover, the statements themselves contain a mix of opinion and claims of fact. IE one part can only be an opinion, other parts could be factual, if correct.

ly status is inherently subjective. There is no objective test. Whenever you call someone a , it is always a statement of opinion. It can never be a proven fact. Opinions can differ on whether someone is a .

Ability to afford a 911 is something one can test in fact. Actually proving it in practice may be complicated, perhaps even to the point where it's not really viable, but at least in theory, it's something that can be tested objectively. Can this person afford a 911, etc. So sadly, you are contradicting yourself and making little to no sense.
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PhantomPH

3,011 posts

164 months

Monday 8th January 2018
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Honestly CMoose, do you never get tired of getting into arguments on t'internet? biggrin

cmoose

43,879 posts

168 months

Monday 8th January 2018
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Sorry, who you?

cmoose

43,879 posts

168 months

Monday 8th January 2018
quotequote all
hondansx said:
I don't get quite the judgement of the manual. I thought they revised it and improved it? I've heard it is a nice 'box to use now.

Then, this review mentions the final drive change and then refers to it as a change to the 'final cog'. I'm not that mechanically minded, but I thought the final drive was separate in the differential?
They did improve it. By the end of 991.1 prod, it was quite nice. Perhaps not the finest shift in human history, but better than a 987 shift or a standard 997 Carrera shift, just as a for instance, so hardly bad enough to rule the manual out.

Not sure where the thing about the 'final cog' was written but yeah the final drive isn't a ratio in the box. I suppose it's still a cog, if you want to refer to it as such, wherever it's located!

PhantomPH

3,011 posts

164 months

Monday 8th January 2018
quotequote all
cmoose said:
Sorry, who you?
Obviously not.

I'm the guy doing your mother. biggrin

(Jokes, obvs...she's not my type)

cmoose

43,879 posts

168 months

Monday 8th January 2018
quotequote all
PhantomPH said:
Obviously not.

I'm the guy doing your mother. biggrin

(Jokes, obvs...she's not my type)
Hang on. If I'm arguing, what are you doing?

Still, at least we know that unsolicited ad hom snarkery and feeble-minded mother-fking gags that a moderately witty 12 year old would probably pass up are just the ticket for acquiring the moral high ground! Will action that in future! biggrin

PhantomPH

3,011 posts

164 months

Monday 8th January 2018
quotequote all
cmoose said:
PhantomPH said:
Obviously not.

I'm the guy doing your mother. biggrin

(Jokes, obvs...she's not my type)
Hang on. If I'm arguing, what are you doing?

Still, at least we know that unsolicited ad hom snarkery and feeble-minded mother-fking gags that a moderately witty 12 year old would probably pass up are just the ticket for acquiring the moral high ground! Will action that in future! biggrin
I was only messing with you after your reply to my light-hearted comment about you always seeming to be in arguments on here. Hence my use of the big smily face.

Touchy little rascal, aren't you? biggrin

WCZ

6,283 posts

133 months

Monday 8th January 2018
quotequote all
CM954 said:
What does this have over a base Carerra?
What are the price and weight implications of that?

Does the result give a dynamic advantage and / or could the same result be achieved by judicious use of the options sheet on a base Carrera?

The deletion of rear seats, thinner glass, removal of sound deadening and different ratios are all things I assume can't be achieved by optioning a base Carrera.
If I took the rear seats out of a base Carerra (or put them back into this one), would that outweigh (pun intended) the differences in this model's USP?

It doesn't sound like the different ratios have made that much of an impact - and surely even Porsche buyers would be embarrassed to pay more for a car that has thinner glass, less sound deadening yet somehow didn't weigh less than the equivalent of losing an inch off your waistline?

If the ratios are even a small improvement - doesn't it come down to a comparison of what you're paying for that minor gain (and then a comparison with a GTS at a similar option level, as a comparison on any other basis is meaningless)?



Edited by CM954 on Monday 8th January 14:33
if you took the rear sounds out of a base carrera and removed the pcm (both easy jobs) and spec'd a base carrera the same then you're just talking about maybe 1-2kg for the thinner windows and literally a few grams (if anything) for the door handle pulls. (a weight reduction of -0.06%) also bare in the mind that the sound increase from the thinner glass (by all accounts) isn't really noticeable

Ares

8,026 posts

59 months

Monday 8th January 2018
quotequote all
cmoose said:
Ares said:
See above. Of course it does.

"All Cayman drivers are s and couldn't afford a 911" is very different from "All Cayman drivers I know are s and couldn't afford a 911" wink

And someone with a different opinion is not wrong, they just have a different opinion.
Someone that states a fact that is subjective, or simply not correct, is wrong.

HTH wink
Your example is not opinion versus fact. It's two somewhat different claims containing different information.

Moreover, the statements themselves contain a mix of opinion and claims of fact. IE one part can only be an opinion, other parts could be factual, if correct.

ly status is inherently subjective. There is no objective test. Whenever you call someone a , it is always a statement of opinion. It can never be a proven fact. Opinions can differ on whether someone is a .

Ability to afford a 911 is something one can test in fact. Actually proving it in practice may be complicated, perhaps even to the point where it's not really viable, but at least in theory, it's something that can be tested objectively. Can this person afford a 911, etc. So sadly, you are contradicting yourself and making little to no sense.
But I thought it didn't matter stating subjective issues as if they were facts?

And you may not be able to test for the status of '', but sometimes its beyond question....and everyone else has spotted it wink

hondansx

3,301 posts

164 months

Monday 8th January 2018
quotequote all
hondansx said:
I don't get quite the judgement of the manual. I thought they revised it and improved it? I've heard it is a nice 'box to use now.

Then, this review mentions the final drive change and then refers to it as a change to the 'final cog'. I'm not that mechanically minded, but I thought the final drive was separate in the differential?

I do think the T is too expensive, but would be curious to know how much the standard Carrera would be versus the bits the T gets as standard (assume PSE and dampers at -10mm are not cheap).

I also don't understand how removing rear seats, PCM, sound proofing and fitting lighter glass only results in 20kg saving...?

It's such a shame though that they didn't reduce it by a good 70kg or so... surely possible with more parts bin raiding (magnesium roof, 918 seats as standard, PCCBs, GT3 hubs and wheels)
Whilst you guys have been arguing, I've tried to answer my own questions.

- The Carrera T is £85,576 - £7,685 more than the Carrera
- It comes with £3,435 of extras (suspension, wheels, sports exhaust)
- You can't change the suspension on a Carrera
- You can option 4-wheel steering; not an option on the Carrera
- Additionally the Carrera T has an LSD with PTV, which I can't see as something you can option on the Carrera
- The extra £4,250 gets you door pulls, different seat fabric and lightweight glass cost you £4,250
- The Carrera S is only £1,759 more than the Carrera T, but the sports exhaust is another £1,844 (so £89,179)

I see no details on limited build, but in effect it will be because I believe 911 production stops in May. I think if it was a couple of grand less, the Carrera T makes more sense. It will be interesting to compare value after a few years. For me, it's just not compelling enough in turbocharged form. If this was all happening as par of the 991.1 range, I would have been more interested. Until then, man maths + finance make Carrera S an obvious choice.

ORD

12,544 posts

66 months

Monday 8th January 2018
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Very hard to make an argument for the T, to be honest. As you say, Honda, it's not much cheaper than an S and has. nothing much of interest.

EngineFreak

6 posts

14 months

Wednesday 10th January 2018
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Beautiful car smokin