RE: Blow out! The modern tyre dilemma
Discussion
SpeckledJim said:
Cars are sold on a mixture of price, weight, fuel economy, speed and CO2.
Carrying a spare wheel negatively impacts every single one of the above.
The number of new car buyers who won't buy a car without a full sized spare is very, very small. Second-hand buyers are irrelevant.
That's why the manufacturers aren't fitting them.
Absolutely. Doesn't mean it's right though.Carrying a spare wheel negatively impacts every single one of the above.
The number of new car buyers who won't buy a car without a full sized spare is very, very small. Second-hand buyers are irrelevant.
That's why the manufacturers aren't fitting them.
SpeckledJim said:
Cars are sold on a mixture of price, weight, fuel economy, speed and CO2.
Carrying a spare wheel negatively impacts every single one of the above.
No, it impacts mostly on boot space (assuming your car hasn't had the misfortune of designers specifying a centre-exit exhaust), or more generally on packaging.Carrying a spare wheel negatively impacts every single one of the above.
And boot space is important because What Car tells people it is.
Your comments are accurate, but only in terms of fractions of a %:
- Spare wheel weight, vs compressor etc., is ~15kg for an average car - so 1% more weight.
- Cost of a space-saver is <£100. Cost of an alloy, to the mfr, is maybe £300 (again, avg 18"). On a £20-30k car, that's +/- 1%.
- Fuel economy / CO2 will only be affected in acceleration, not in cruise - that genuinely is a small fraction of a percent difference. And if we're talking economy, both aerodynamics and rolling resistance will make more difference, so the mfr should fit narrower wheels* with lower rolling resistance tyres on first.
* Y'know what...that'd make a full-size spare easier to fit in the car!
Nanook said:
rxe said:
IMO you have about as much justication carrying a spare battery, cooling hoses and probably a clutch as a spare wheel.
Indeed, I mean, changing a clutch at the side of the road is just like changing a wheel. Except that you'd need a couple of extra tools, you know, some pliers, an extra jack, a big bit of wood, axle stand perhaps, possibly a huge breaker bar depending on the driveshaft arrangement, an alignment tool, maybe a crane, a hammer, a socket set and a ratchet or two, a set of spanners etc.
The items you mention are well beyond the means of the average driver. Wheels are not, so if you have one then you can get home without waiting for assistance. A spacesaver will do - it's better than nothing.
Turbobanana said:
SpeckledJim said:
Cars are sold on a mixture of price, weight, fuel economy, speed and CO2.
Carrying a spare wheel negatively impacts every single one of the above.
The number of new car buyers who won't buy a car without a full sized spare is very, very small. Second-hand buyers are irrelevant.
That's why the manufacturers aren't fitting them.
Absolutely. Doesn't mean it's right though.Carrying a spare wheel negatively impacts every single one of the above.
The number of new car buyers who won't buy a car without a full sized spare is very, very small. Second-hand buyers are irrelevant.
That's why the manufacturers aren't fitting them.
I'd rather cars carry a spare battery than a spare wheel.
havoc said:
SpeckledJim said:
Cars are sold on a mixture of price, weight, fuel economy, speed and CO2.
Carrying a spare wheel negatively impacts every single one of the above.
No, it impacts mostly on boot space (assuming your car hasn't had the misfortune of designers specifying a centre-exit exhaust), or more generally on packaging.Carrying a spare wheel negatively impacts every single one of the above.
And boot space is important because What Car tells people it is.
Your comments are accurate, but only in terms of fractions of a %:
- Spare wheel weight, vs compressor etc., is ~15kg for an average car - so 1% more weight.
- Cost of a space-saver is <£100. Cost of an alloy, to the mfr, is maybe £300 (again, avg 18"). On a £20-30k car, that's +/- 1%.
- Fuel economy / CO2 will only be affected in acceleration, not in cruise - that genuinely is a small fraction of a percent difference. And if we're talking economy, both aerodynamics and rolling resistance will make more difference, so the mfr should fit narrower wheels* with lower rolling resistance tyres on first.
* Y'know what...that'd make a full-size spare easier to fit in the car!
£100 or £300 additional profit per car is a gigantic amount, the manufacturers will go a long way for that.
New car customers care about tyre size (which is mad, but they do) so that's under scrutiny at the point of sale. Spare wheels aren't. Not to the point of losing a meaningful number of sales, any way.
If Merc fit one, and Audi don't, then not only does the Mercedes perform (marginally) worse in important ways, but Mercedes make a chunk less money on each one, and sell fewer.
TooMany2cvs said:
Valgar said:
TooMany2cvs said:
It won't fit on the front, but will it fit on the back? If so, good enough...
Spare on rear, rear on front, flat in boot. Job jobbed.
Unless I'm mistaken this is how it should be regardless of car? The space saver should be on the rear wheelSpare on rear, rear on front, flat in boot. Job jobbed.
<waits for shouts of "but best tyres on back!">
I don't run modern cars, so I have full sized spares for all vehicles and I would feel under equipped without them.
A previous poster suggested a puncture every 80K or so which would match my experience, but as I do 20k+ a year, that is every 4 years, so the hassle is always memorable and the potential hassle with only a can of goo downright frightening.
As a member of 4x4 Response, I once recovered a Renault Clio with a front wheel puncture who had replaced his full sized spare wheel with an equivalently sized bass bin. Given his habit of driving down rough roads at high speed, I would suggest that was a poor choice of priorities!
A previous poster suggested a puncture every 80K or so which would match my experience, but as I do 20k+ a year, that is every 4 years, so the hassle is always memorable and the potential hassle with only a can of goo downright frightening.
As a member of 4x4 Response, I once recovered a Renault Clio with a front wheel puncture who had replaced his full sized spare wheel with an equivalently sized bass bin. Given his habit of driving down rough roads at high speed, I would suggest that was a poor choice of priorities!
alock said:
S2000 manual says to put the space saver on the front. If you get a rear puncture you should put a good front tyre on the back and the space saver on the front. Something to do with uneven forces through the LSD.
Yes, there's always exceptions - and a limited slip diff really won't like having mis-matched diameter tyres.LukeyC said:
I must be in the minority here - I've removed the spare tyre from my last two cars and stick them in the garage.
This isn't because I can't change a tyre, far from it. It's partly to save weight, but mainly because I can then use the well to put a can of tyre foam, winter coat, hat, gloves, scarf, tow rope, spare bulbs, torch, jump leads, granola bars, water, high vis and lord-knows-what-else in case I break down.
Like alot of people I have a packaged bank account that includes breakdown cover, so if I get a puncture (none in 17 years of driving so far) and the foam fails, I'd just use the service I pay for to recover me.
Perhaps it's the fact I've not had one yet - my plan may well let me down when theory turns into practice!
Almost certainly... Have a read-through of the Ts & Cs, almost all breakdown recovery will charge you for a flat tyre if you don't have the manufacturer-supplied equipment in usable/legal condition.This isn't because I can't change a tyre, far from it. It's partly to save weight, but mainly because I can then use the well to put a can of tyre foam, winter coat, hat, gloves, scarf, tow rope, spare bulbs, torch, jump leads, granola bars, water, high vis and lord-knows-what-else in case I break down.
Like alot of people I have a packaged bank account that includes breakdown cover, so if I get a puncture (none in 17 years of driving so far) and the foam fails, I'd just use the service I pay for to recover me.
Perhaps it's the fact I've not had one yet - my plan may well let me down when theory turns into practice!
My wife's BMW's run-flats it came with from new, started of sort of OK, but as they aged the ride became absolutely terrible - I used to hate driving it. A puncture (informed by the warning light on the dashboard) on an very dark, wet, winter night in the middle of nowhere made be re-evaluate the usefulness of run flats. They do have their place.
We replaced all four tyres with the very latest generation of run flats after that puncture 2 years or so ago and it was like night and day. The ride has improved a lot and still remains good. There has obviously been some improvements in this technology in recent times.
We replaced all four tyres with the very latest generation of run flats after that puncture 2 years or so ago and it was like night and day. The ride has improved a lot and still remains good. There has obviously been some improvements in this technology in recent times.
I've always made a point of having a full-sized spare, and for the first 20-odd years of driving I never had a puncture. But then I did, inbetween Hardknott and Wrynose passes (for those not familiar with the Lake District, that's a pretty remote spot), and with a four month old on board. Was the ability to sort it out and be on my way within fifteen minutes worth whatever tiny amount of extra petrol I've used over the years by lugging a spare around? Oh my god yes, many times over.
Roger Irrelevant said:
I've always made a point of having a full-sized spare, and for the first 20-odd years of driving I never had a puncture. But then I did, inbetween Hardknott and Wrynose passes (for those not familiar with the Lake District, that's a pretty remote spot), and with a four month old on board. Was the ability to sort it out and be on my way within fifteen minutes worth whatever tiny amount of extra petrol I've used over the years by lugging a spare around? Oh my god yes, many times over.
Exactly this. It's the ability to sort yourself out. Sure you could carry other items above that, but clutches etc aren't normally roadside fixes.I'm making a general assumption that those against spares are vanilla drivers - you drive 1.5 miles to the station to take the train to work, you maybe go to the gym after work, pop into Tesco, and visit the retail parks at the weekend. That is, you are not a million miles from civilisation. In London, there are lots of 24hr garages, 24hr man in a van tyre operations, public transport runs 24hrs and Uber/Black Cabs are easy to sort out that you could ditch your spare.
I read on the Car website that it took 3 hours to sort out a new valve for their long term Discovery. f
k that! 15 minutes and I'm on my way. Every one of my cars carries an extendable wrench and gloves. hardworker said:
You have MUCH more chance of needing a spare wheel than those things.
Really? I’ve been let down by batteries about 3 times in 25 years. On the only serious occasion, I was in the middle of nowhere with an un-pushable Land Rover. Thankfully it has a winch battery, so a “jump lead” was lashed together using a big screwdriver.Cooling hoses - once. Bottom hose on an Alfa 156.
Clutch - once, but I got home OK by rev matching. The point of taking a clutch would be to hand it to the garage you got dragged to, not change it yourself.
Puncture - once.
If I lived in Somalia, then I would carry a car load of spares. We live in a first world country - if the car breaks down, I’ll find the number of the nearest cab firm once the car has been picked up by the AA.
rxe said:
We live in a first world country - if the car breaks down, I’ll find the number of the nearest cab firm once the car has been picked up by the AA.
How are you calling a cab or the AA from the middle of a windswept Lake District hillside?You're not assuming there's going to be a mobile signal, are you...?
Slight tangent, but I wonder how many competent wheel changers would actually stop to ask if they could offer assistance to a punctured vehicle? I expect the answer is a flat 'no' or a 'it depends' but rather less than say 30 years ago. (amongst the cycling fraternity it would be the norm, but cyclists puncture multiple times a year so hardly the same thing!)
The main reason manufacturers no-longer put spare wheels into cars is that most drivers (that they care about) don't use them - full-sized or otherwise.
There's a report knocking around somewhere - can't lay hands on a readable link but it was done in the mid 00s - said that 70% of drivers of 'newer cars' (<4 years old) would call for assistance rather than replacing a tyre themselves and that 90% of car tyres were available 'off the shelf' for mobile replacement.
Space savers are a lovely idea - until you realise you need to put the full-sized damaged wheel and tyre into the car once it's removed of course - that often results in some issues (and some tyres/wheels left at the side of the road!!)
Then there's the issue that some people don't understand that foam/space savers should only be used to get home - there have been some incidents with people crashing on foamed/space-saver tyres and some questions asked about facilitating that being a bad idea.
End-of-the-day, the steady increase in wheel/tyre sizes (my boy-racer car had alloys running 195/65 VR 14s, big tyres in the 90s - 14" tyres are now quite hard to find/pricey!) means spares are just not practical and space savers aren't a perfect solution either - we need to get used-to-that I guess.
Those stty cans of foam were a response to a legal requirement in some countries - no-one with any sense uses them - they also have short shelf-lives, I'm willing to bet more than half of the cars out there are expired anyway!
There's a report knocking around somewhere - can't lay hands on a readable link but it was done in the mid 00s - said that 70% of drivers of 'newer cars' (<4 years old) would call for assistance rather than replacing a tyre themselves and that 90% of car tyres were available 'off the shelf' for mobile replacement.
Space savers are a lovely idea - until you realise you need to put the full-sized damaged wheel and tyre into the car once it's removed of course - that often results in some issues (and some tyres/wheels left at the side of the road!!)
Then there's the issue that some people don't understand that foam/space savers should only be used to get home - there have been some incidents with people crashing on foamed/space-saver tyres and some questions asked about facilitating that being a bad idea.
End-of-the-day, the steady increase in wheel/tyre sizes (my boy-racer car had alloys running 195/65 VR 14s, big tyres in the 90s - 14" tyres are now quite hard to find/pricey!) means spares are just not practical and space savers aren't a perfect solution either - we need to get used-to-that I guess.
Those s
tty cans of foam were a response to a legal requirement in some countries - no-one with any sense uses them - they also have short shelf-lives, I'm willing to bet more than half of the cars out there are expired anyway!Edited by 406dogvan on Saturday 6th January 21:59
millen said:
Slight tangent, but I wonder how many competent wheel changers would actually stop to ask if they could offer assistance to a punctured vehicle? I expect the answer is a flat 'no' or a 'it depends' but rather less than say 30 years ago. (amongst the cycling fraternity it would be the norm, but cyclists puncture multiple times a year so hardly the same thing!)
I've done exactly that so there's at least 1 of us.Forget all this above. Do trains have spare wheels? No. Do they have solid wheels? Yes. Is the ride on a train uncomfortable? Not particularly. So the answer to me is in the suspension system. A solid rubber tyre with a decent suspension system should cope. A sort of super-runflat, except it never goes flat.
406dogvan said:
There's a report knocking around somewhere - can't lay hands on a readable link but it was done in the mid 00s - said that 70% of drivers of 'newer cars' (<4 years old) would call for assistance rather than replacing a tyre themselves and that 90% of car tyres were available 'off the shelf' for mobile replacement.
We’re under orders from Work - if we have a puncture in a company car, pool car or van, we are forbidden from changing wheels ourselves (I’m perfectly capable by the way) - company would rather put breakdown people at risk than employees. I certainly wouldn’t fancy changing an offside tyre on a dark rainy night in the hard shoulder and would prefer it of someone with a van festooned in amber beacons did.Edited by 406dogvan on Saturday 6th January 21:59
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