RE: Shed of the Week: Mazda RX-8
Discussion
Great summary...
PeteTA said:
Like any car the RX-8 has it's good and bad points. The bad points can mostly be avoided with proper maintenance, and a little bit of knowledge. The good points are what make the car unique and, in my opinion, pretty awesome.
I just wanted to reply to the comments criticising the performance and handling. The performance is actually very reasonable, but only if you are prepared to use the gearbox and all of the revs. If you are used to torque, V8s, turbos, and diesels, it will feel flat. But if you are used to highly tuned race engines, and motorcycle engines, you will feel very much at home with the car. Ultimately, it is quite fast, but you have to work for it.
The handling is close to perfect. It has brilliant balance, huge grip, and does exactly what you want. It also has a superb set of electronics, to keep you on the road if things start to go wrong. But you do have to have good tyres on it. Unfortunately most people now put budget tyres on the car, because a full set of good tyres in the large size required on the 8 will cost nearly as much as the car is worth.
How do I know? This year I won the Clubman class of the UK Time Attack Championship with my RX-8 231. It runs a totally stock engine, nearly stock brakes, and mildly modified suspension. It beat a 300bhp Astra VXR, a 220bhp tuned Fiat 500 Arbarth, a Renault Megane RS, and often beat cars in the higher class. It was invariably slowest on the straights (It has reasonable power, but can't match turbo hot hatches), but could out corner just about anything on the circuit.
It's also interesting to note that on the circuit it was one of the most reliable cars in Time Attack. The RX-8 just loves to be ragged as hard as possible, and I had almost no issues in two years of racing. In comparison, most of the turbos needed constant attention to keep them going. And fuel use? On the track it was significantly better then the turbos. When driven hard the rotary is very efficient. It is only when driven at very low revs that the rotary becomes inefficient.
I'm not denying the the RX-8 can have it's issues, but if you know what you are doing then currently you can pick up a characterful, fast, amazing handling car for pennies. This situation won't last for ever. Many UK RX-8s are already being shipped to France, where they are worth two to three times as much.
I just wanted to reply to the comments criticising the performance and handling. The performance is actually very reasonable, but only if you are prepared to use the gearbox and all of the revs. If you are used to torque, V8s, turbos, and diesels, it will feel flat. But if you are used to highly tuned race engines, and motorcycle engines, you will feel very much at home with the car. Ultimately, it is quite fast, but you have to work for it.
The handling is close to perfect. It has brilliant balance, huge grip, and does exactly what you want. It also has a superb set of electronics, to keep you on the road if things start to go wrong. But you do have to have good tyres on it. Unfortunately most people now put budget tyres on the car, because a full set of good tyres in the large size required on the 8 will cost nearly as much as the car is worth.
How do I know? This year I won the Clubman class of the UK Time Attack Championship with my RX-8 231. It runs a totally stock engine, nearly stock brakes, and mildly modified suspension. It beat a 300bhp Astra VXR, a 220bhp tuned Fiat 500 Arbarth, a Renault Megane RS, and often beat cars in the higher class. It was invariably slowest on the straights (It has reasonable power, but can't match turbo hot hatches), but could out corner just about anything on the circuit.
It's also interesting to note that on the circuit it was one of the most reliable cars in Time Attack. The RX-8 just loves to be ragged as hard as possible, and I had almost no issues in two years of racing. In comparison, most of the turbos needed constant attention to keep them going. And fuel use? On the track it was significantly better then the turbos. When driven hard the rotary is very efficient. It is only when driven at very low revs that the rotary becomes inefficient.
I'm not denying the the RX-8 can have it's issues, but if you know what you are doing then currently you can pick up a characterful, fast, amazing handling car for pennies. This situation won't last for ever. Many UK RX-8s are already being shipped to France, where they are worth two to three times as much.
The fact that they don’t give much better economy if you drive them like a granny is quite liberating...
I guess the real problem with them is that to get the benefit you really have to get the opportunity to drive them properly. If, like many people in the UK, most of your driving is urban or suburban traffic and the only fun you get is booting it down a sliproad, you’re not going to get the benefits that you are tolerating the thirst for. It does annoy me that people can’t wrap their heads round the idea that what you get in return for the awful fuel economy is the benefits of a really compact engine to handling and interior packaging when they have no problem grasping why they don’t want a diesel, but you have to look at what they use their cars for.
I guess the real problem with them is that to get the benefit you really have to get the opportunity to drive them properly. If, like many people in the UK, most of your driving is urban or suburban traffic and the only fun you get is booting it down a sliproad, you’re not going to get the benefits that you are tolerating the thirst for. It does annoy me that people can’t wrap their heads round the idea that what you get in return for the awful fuel economy is the benefits of a really compact engine to handling and interior packaging when they have no problem grasping why they don’t want a diesel, but you have to look at what they use their cars for.
edwheels said:
I never knew that - real progress and well done for listening to criticism, Mazda.
After my largely very positive experience with my 231 (pre-R3) I would love an R3 one day. Apart from the styling and interior changes, this dipstick / oil re-design alone makes it very interesting.
I am sure there are other minor but significant mechanical upgrades that I don't know about.
So tempting...
This is a pretty comprehensive list:After my largely very positive experience with my 231 (pre-R3) I would love an R3 one day. Apart from the styling and interior changes, this dipstick / oil re-design alone makes it very interesting.
I am sure there are other minor but significant mechanical upgrades that I don't know about.
So tempting...
- All New Powertrain Control Module (PCM) with TEMPERATURE SENSOR newly added and built into the PCM, when ETC (Engine Compartment Temperature) reaches 230F or 100C with Ignition OFF, Medium Cooling Fans Switch ON.
-New Larger Genuine Oil Filter and Repositioned On Front Timing Cover Housing To-wards The Sump (Left Hand Side). USE GENUINE 09 SERIES II OIL FILTER ONLY.
-Revised Oil Filler and Dip Stick (Longer Type).
-New EMOP "Electric Metering Oil Pumps" Two of them... Internal Oil Pressure in EMOP's is between 7.3 and 21.7 PSI (Used for the first time by Mazda)
-New Design Oil Injection Nozzles 3 per Rotor Housing..Totalling 6.
-New Oil Pump Assembly.
-50% Higher Oil Pressure Rate at 100 oC (121oF) @3000 RPM...500 kPa {5.10 kgf/cm2, 72.5 psi} When compared to Series 1 RX-8.
-New Oil Pressure Sensor (ONLY Located on #1 EMOP).
-Larger Oil Pan Sump Capacity.
-New Hex (8mm) Type Sump Drain Plug.
-New Internal Oil/Sump Pan Magnet...(First Time Used In A Rotary Engine Since 1985 FC RX-7)
-New External Silver Plate Engine Sump Guard.
-New Inlet Manifold.
-Revised Auxiliary Port Valves.
-Revised 4 Fuel Injection Nozzles (2 Primary, 2 Secondary). (Series I six Port Engine had 6 FI Nozzles).
-Revised Atmospheric Air Control Solenoid (Near Throttle Body)
-New Fuel Pump.
-New Radiator Core.
-New Radiator Electric Fan Motors.
-Revised Radiator Fans Speeds from 2 to 3 Speeds. (Low, Middle, High).
-New Alternator.
-New Starter Motor (14 Tooth Cog)
-New Battery 80D26L. (80 AMP Hour) (Was 50D22L (50AH) or 75D26L (75AH) in Series I)
-New Exhaust System.
-New Air Conditioner Temperature Controller (Amplifier).
-New Bridgestone RE050A's in 18" and 19" (R3).
-New Manual Transmission (6 speed MX-5/Miata) (Reverse is now next to 1st gear not next to 6th gear).
-New Differential Ratio (Manual).
-New Differential Fixing Plate Washer on PPF (Power Plant Frame).
-New Differential Mounting Bracket.
-New Additional Alloy Cooling Fins (4) on Alloy Differential Cover Plate, Plus Deeper Set Cooling Fins.
-Changed Throw Out Bearing (Thrust or Fork Bearing).
-Revised Oil Coolers, Air Intakes and Oil Cooler Hose Lines.
-Extra Rotor Knock Sensor (Now 1 per Rotor, Total Of 2).
-New Water Pump/ New Timing Cover to suit.
-New Water Pump Pulley.
-New Water Pump "O" Ring as Gasket.
-New Spark Plug Leads.
-New Ignition Coil Backing/Mounting Plate (Now Ventilated)
-New Alternator/Air Compressor Drive Belts.
-Revised Eccentric Shaft (Crankshaft) Pulley.
-Revised Oxygen Sensor (CAT).
-Revised Air/Fuel Ratio Sensor (Exhaust Manifold).
-New Air Pump Control Unit.
-New One Piece Trans Tunnel Heat Shield (Previously Two Piece).
-New Under Body Covers Reducing C Drag from 0.31 to now 0.30.
-Larger Fuel Tank (5 litres extra or around a gallon).
-New Dynamic Stability Control (DSC) Hydraulic Unit Control Module.
-New Yaw Rate (or Combined Sensor) Sensor Unit.
-New Rear Suspension Control Links (Rods) Upper/Lower and Trailing Ball Joint wrist area increased in Diameter/Size.
-New Rear Stabilizer Bar. (R3)
-New Rear Shocks And Springs.
-New Rear Axles (Manual Trans) 3mm thicker diameter..
-New Rear Suspension Knuckles.
-New Rear Parking Brake Cables.
-New ABS Wheel Sensors (All 4 Wheels).
-Revised TPMS (Tire Pressure Monitoring System) US Only.
-New Front Upper And Front Lower Suspension Arms (Wishbone).
-New Front Steering Knuckles And Wheel Hubs.
-New Front Stabilizer Bar.
-New Front Shock and Springs.
-New Dashboard Mounting Frame with Crossbar Bushings.
-Revised Power Steering Control System Unit.
-Revised Headlamp Auto Leveling Sensors.
-Revised Air Bag Control Module.
-New 3 Piece (Instead of 2) Strut Tower Brace (Manual Only), Auto's Retains Two Piece Tower Brace.
-Revised Front and Rear Wheel Arch Splash Guards/Shields.
-Thicker (Heavier Guage) Steel On The Two Front Strut Towers.
-Additional Spot Weldings Around Both Door Openings For Increased Rigidity.
-Stiffened Body Shell = Torsional (twisting) and Flexural (bending) Rigidity have been increased by 5.4 and 8.7 per cent respectively.
-19" alloys
-Body kit (inc. spoiler)
-Recaro seats
I think the main things to note aside from the obvious visual differences, the R3 has shorter gear ratios (because of the new diff), weighs 25 kg less, has a lot of changes to oil system, improved suspension and increased stiffness.
The GBP rebuild by specialists may be a labour-only figure. As a previous poster noted he paid gbp1200 on parts alone so a specialist will not be doing all that for 3-500 quid. A full rebuild kit is normally listed as approx. gbp1000 for engine seals and cooling system seals. So by the time you've added on service items and a few (maybe many) extras plus vat you will be looking at big numbers. Still worth it, just don't expect it to be a cheap experience. Same with any specialist or classic car maintained at specialist independent garages.
pengers said:
The GBP rebuild by specialists may be a labour-only figure. As a previous poster noted he paid gbp1200 on parts alone so a specialist will not be doing all that for 3-500 quid. A full rebuild kit is normally listed as approx. gbp1000 for engine seals and cooling system seals. So by the time you've added on service items and a few (maybe many) extras plus vat you will be looking at big numbers. Still worth it, just don't expect it to be a cheap experience. Same with any specialist or classic car maintained at specialist independent garages.
£1900 (inc. parts, labour and vat) from one of the top specialists in the UK.PeteTA said:
Like any car the RX-8 has it's good and bad points. The bad points can mostly be avoided with proper maintenance, and a little bit of knowledge. The good points are what make the car unique and, in my opinion, pretty awesome.
I just wanted to reply to the comments criticising the performance and handling. The performance is actually very reasonable, but only if you are prepared to use the gearbox and all of the revs. If you are used to torque, V8s, turbos, and diesels, it will feel flat. But if you are used to highly tuned race engines, and motorcycle engines, you will feel very much at home with the car. Ultimately, it is quite fast, but you have to work for it.
The handling is close to perfect. It has brilliant balance, huge grip, and does exactly what you want. It also has a superb set of electronics, to keep you on the road if things start to go wrong. But you do have to have good tyres on it. Unfortunately most people now put budget tyres on the car, because a full set of good tyres in the large size required on the 8 will cost nearly as much as the car is worth.
How do I know? This year I won the Clubman class of the UK Time Attack Championship with my RX-8 231. It runs a totally stock engine, nearly stock brakes, and mildly modified suspension. It beat a 300bhp Astra VXR, a 220bhp tuned Fiat 500 Arbarth, a Renault Megane RS, and often beat cars in the higher class. It was invariably slowest on the straights (It has reasonable power, but can't match turbo hot hatches), but could out corner just about anything on the circuit.
It's also interesting to note that on the circuit it was one of the most reliable cars in Time Attack. The RX-8 just loves to be ragged as hard as possible, and I had almost no issues in two years of racing. In comparison, most of the turbos needed constant attention to keep them going. And fuel use? On the track it was significantly better then the turbos. When driven hard the rotary is very efficient. It is only when driven at very low revs that the rotary becomes inefficient.
I'm not denying the the RX-8 can have it's issues, but if you know what you are doing then currently you can pick up a characterful, fast, amazing handling car for pennies. This situation won't last for ever. Many UK RX-8s are already being shipped to France, where they are worth two to three times as much.
Pete, if you have time to keep another thread updated I'm sure your fascinating build would have a lot of fans here I just wanted to reply to the comments criticising the performance and handling. The performance is actually very reasonable, but only if you are prepared to use the gearbox and all of the revs. If you are used to torque, V8s, turbos, and diesels, it will feel flat. But if you are used to highly tuned race engines, and motorcycle engines, you will feel very much at home with the car. Ultimately, it is quite fast, but you have to work for it.
The handling is close to perfect. It has brilliant balance, huge grip, and does exactly what you want. It also has a superb set of electronics, to keep you on the road if things start to go wrong. But you do have to have good tyres on it. Unfortunately most people now put budget tyres on the car, because a full set of good tyres in the large size required on the 8 will cost nearly as much as the car is worth.
How do I know? This year I won the Clubman class of the UK Time Attack Championship with my RX-8 231. It runs a totally stock engine, nearly stock brakes, and mildly modified suspension. It beat a 300bhp Astra VXR, a 220bhp tuned Fiat 500 Arbarth, a Renault Megane RS, and often beat cars in the higher class. It was invariably slowest on the straights (It has reasonable power, but can't match turbo hot hatches), but could out corner just about anything on the circuit.
It's also interesting to note that on the circuit it was one of the most reliable cars in Time Attack. The RX-8 just loves to be ragged as hard as possible, and I had almost no issues in two years of racing. In comparison, most of the turbos needed constant attention to keep them going. And fuel use? On the track it was significantly better then the turbos. When driven hard the rotary is very efficient. It is only when driven at very low revs that the rotary becomes inefficient.
I'm not denying the the RX-8 can have it's issues, but if you know what you are doing then currently you can pick up a characterful, fast, amazing handling car for pennies. This situation won't last for ever. Many UK RX-8s are already being shipped to France, where they are worth two to three times as much.
R8Steve said:
I had one of these, hated everything about it. I wouldn’t have another one if it was free.
Could not agree more. Bought one new in 2005 instead of a year old similarly priced E46 coupe (WHAT WAS I THINKING!!) and sold it 3 years later after 10k having become disillusioned with 3 sets of rusty alloys, constant recalls for this that and the other rusty body part and oil cooler pipes. Did more miles driving to and from the dealer than enjoying the damned thing! Worst car (all things considered) we ever bought. Oh hang on, there was a big-ass Megane once.....Bought a 2005 E46 some years later and it still had less corrosion at 6 years old and 65k than the MAZDA did at a year.
delta0 said:
pengers said:
The GBP rebuild by specialists may be a labour-only figure. As a previous poster noted he paid gbp1200 on parts alone so a specialist will not be doing all that for 3-500 quid. A full rebuild kit is normally listed as approx. gbp1000 for engine seals and cooling system seals. So by the time you've added on service items and a few (maybe many) extras plus vat you will be looking at big numbers. Still worth it, just don't expect it to be a cheap experience. Same with any specialist or classic car maintained at specialist independent garages.
£1900 (inc. parts, labour and vat) from one of the top specialists in the UK.2k is more like from someone with a good rep
seiben said:
Pete, if you have time to keep another thread updated I'm sure your fascinating build would have a lot of fans here
Pete already has a very in depth thread running for his race car build and progress here:https://www.rx8ownersclub.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.ph...
latest developments look rather interesting
350Matt said:
Pete already has a very in depth thread running for his race car build and progress here:
https://www.rx8ownersclub.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.ph...
I know, but my own thread here seems to get a bit of interest from non-RX8 owners https://www.rx8ownersclub.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.ph...
Nice article. They are wonderful cars and fantastic value for money.
Sure, they [deliberately] use oil and you have to ensure the engine is warm before shutting off and leaving (stalling is no problem), but I've had piston-engined cars that have used more oil. Read the buying guide on the owners' club website, only buy one with a rotary compression test (piston-engine testers are no good), walk away if the seller won't do a compression test, do a get-hot-and-leave-for-10-minutes starting check (even knackered engines will start hot if you switch them off then try to start immediately) and watch out for unscrupulous sellers.
Sure, they [deliberately] use oil and you have to ensure the engine is warm before shutting off and leaving (stalling is no problem), but I've had piston-engined cars that have used more oil. Read the buying guide on the owners' club website, only buy one with a rotary compression test (piston-engine testers are no good), walk away if the seller won't do a compression test, do a get-hot-and-leave-for-10-minutes starting check (even knackered engines will start hot if you switch them off then try to start immediately) and watch out for unscrupulous sellers.
Edited by JLGsDad on Monday 8th January 18:28
Ahbefive said:
There are plenty of rotary specialists quoting <£2k for a rebuild. £3k would be if you wanted lots of extra work done.
You get what you pay for when it comes to rebuilds on Rotaries.Yes you can pay less, but there is plenty of history feedback available on the RX8 Owners Club UK forum on which builds to avoid and which ones do a stellar job.
J4CKO said:
Are there many that have been converted to a conventional engine, I know some have been done but does it mess up the good bits whilst solving the engine issue ?
It's probably not as bad as it would be if it were done OEM, because if you do a conversion you don't have to worry about crash or pedestrian safety, etc, but you're still going to lose the tight, low weight distribution that makes it feel how it does. Whether the driver will notice or care is another question, depends on the driver.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff