RE: Citroen confirms new large saloon for production

[rastapasta]

Uptown said:

8V085 said:

As much as I love big hydropneumatic Citroen's C6 is one of those ones I wouldn't want to own unless it was brand new and for as long as the manufacturer's warranty was in place. Unfortunately they killed it before I had a chance.

I'll second that. I've never owned a big Citroen (hell, the largest Gallic wagon that's passed through my hands was a 205 XS...) but that doesn't mean I haven't given serious thought to taking the plunge.

Now, I'm certain that there are good ones out there and that owners could wax lyrical all day about the style, the comfort and the sense of...I dunno...'otherness' that driving such a beast provided them.

It's just that I'm equally certain those folk would have owned their cars from new, punting them on just before the warranties expired.

Now the C6 (didn't one feature in a PH article the other week?) has begun it's inexorable spiral down the food chain, I could probably find a superficially good example without too much hassle. I'd then sit back and wait for the suspension to play tricks on me and for the electrics to defy the laws of physics, problems which couldn't be fixed unless I set up a standing order with the local Citroen dealership. Perhaps not even then...

It is with a heavy heart that I must resign myself to being content with the odd sighting of an XM or even a Renault Vel Satis (equally idiosyncratic in it's way) and to dream about what could be.

I hope that Citroen decides to sell this car in the UK but I'm not banking on it.

You are both wrong. Although i can see why you would come to such a conclusion. My father has driven, since 1987, two BX's, two Xantia's, 3 C5's, changed at 100,000 miles every 3-4 years depending on mileage and driving on the roughest roads imaginable around the backarses of Ireland. All of the models have been diesel, from the straight 1.7 1987 BX, to the 1.7tdi 1990 onward and all with the Hydro pneumatic suspension. The only thing that ever gave him problems were the heater plugs dying prematurely due to him not waiting for the light to go out first thing in the morning, every morning. The suspension is bulletproof. It is a work of art and is actually extremely durable. As a child he would allow me to tear around the fields of our farm in the Xantia's (the initial mark 1 1994 model or the subsequent 98 mark 2 model). No issues and the nicest handling cars I have ever driven.

His current model is a 2014 C5. While not as sweet to handle, the suspension is as good now as it has ever been. The key he says is regular maintenance, i.e.: change the oil.

[Sine Metu]

The French are industry is essentially about lowest unit cost of production. They moved most of their production out of France to low labour cost locations. They only invest a fraction of the amount the Germans do in R&D. They just don't do medium to high end cars or innovation anymore. That's all gone. They make the equivalent of motoring washing machines. Very good, functional, well made, family/young couple cars. okay to look at, does the job cars. There is no such thing as a French supercar (Bugatti is a Volkswagen). Culturally, they frown upon 'showyness' as a trait which is admirable. But that's a big part of why they can't expand globally via their French brands. They're in a different headspace. We'll see if the Alpine does anything but essentially they never (or extremely rarely) do sports cars. Or luxury cars. Or iconic 4x4's even. They talk it up a lot, each new CEO full of it, but essentially they have no image or brand values beyond price and practicality. All their years and millions spent in motor racing has yielded absolutely northing in image terms. Which is why they keep leaving, coming back, leaving again and so on. (Just three French wins at their home epic, Le Mans in twenty five years!!!). Renault, Citroen and Peaugeot are for all intents and purposes interchangeable brands. Pick a shape, stick one or the other badges on it. They're just not a car country. Where they are great is small hot hatches. And that's about it. So any new big Citroen is going to be for those who want to be different just for the sake of being different I expect.

[TooMany2cvs]

Sine Metu said:

The French are industry is essentially about lowest unit cost of production. They moved most of their production out of France to low labour cost locations.

PSA built 1.9m cars in Europe last year - just about 1m of those were made in France. Most of the rest were built in Spain, at the Vigo factory which opened in 1958. Renault are a similar split.

Sine Metu said:

They only invest a fraction of the amount the Germans do in R&D.

Might Sir be including Opel in "the Germans"...?

[Sine Metu]

TooMany2cvs said:

Sine Metu said:

The French are industry is essentially about lowest unit cost of production. They moved most of their production out of France to low labour cost locations.

PSA built 1.9m cars in Europe last year - just about 1m of those were made in France. Most of the rest were built in Spain, at the Vigo factory which opened in 1958. Renault are a similar split.

Sine Metu said:

They only invest a fraction of the amount the Germans do in R&D.

Might Sir be including Opel in "the Germans"...?

In 2000 the equivalent of 70% of French domestic car production was made abroad. In 2010 that ratio was 170% for PSA and 300% for Renault. .

The R&D gap between VW and PSA per car (the % of price going to R&D) is 20%. It's 45% higher than Renault. And BMW and Mercedes are higher again.

It's not a criticism. They chose a different model to the Germans as they tend to always do. Just an observation and possibly a lament. For such a big country right at the hear tof Europe with such a history of motor racing and automotive inventiveness to be so dull when it comes to cars today is a pity. We all love the old DS's and 2CV's and the retro adverts etc. But that's all a long time ago. Distant memories. And I think Opel is brand the world simply doesn't need anymore.

Edited by Sine Metu on Thursday 18th January 14:33

[TooMany2cvs]

Sine Metu said:

In 2000 the equivalent of 70% of domestic production was made abroad. In 2010 that ratio was 170% for PSA and 300% for Renault. .

Yes, they're building cars locally for far-flung markets, especially China and South America.

[Sine Metu]

TooMany2cvs said:

Sine Metu said:

In 2000 the equivalent of 70% of domestic production was made abroad. In 2010 that ratio was 170% for PSA and 300% for Renault. .

Yes, they're building cars locally for far-flung markets, especially China and South America.

Yes, but the driver is cost of production. It's decentralised production rather than export. It's jobs abroad and investment abroad rather than domestically. In the same time frame, German productivity per car worker has increased by 38% because they invested more in home production. Doesn't mean the Germans don't also produce abroad. Simply that the two countries took very different approaches quantatively. And the Germans have built their brands so well that they command a premium, are far more profitable per unit, contribute more to the German economy and contribute more to ongoing research. Their model seems to be be the better choice right now. Maybe not forever. But I also think the cultural aspect is part of the story., The Germans are more passionate about their cars than the French. The French are more passionate about other things. The low unit cost approach of the French is rooted in their perception of the car being fundamentally a utilitarian tool, not a status symbol or a thing of joy and freedom etc etc. It's just a tool. Hence poor brand image of French cars. And the circle goes on.

Edited by Sine Metu on Thursday 18th January 14:35

[SpeckledJim]

The styling is already done, years ago.
Just make it EXACTLY like the Metropolis.

[8V085]

rastapasta said:

Uptown said:

8V085 said:

As much as I love big hydropneumatic Citroen's C6 is one of those ones I wouldn't want to own unless it was brand new and for as long as the manufacturer's warranty was in place. Unfortunately they killed it before I had a chance.

I'll second that. I've never owned a big Citroen (hell, the largest Gallic wagon that's passed through my hands was a 205 XS...) but that doesn't mean I haven't given serious thought to taking the plunge.

Now, I'm certain that there are good ones out there and that owners could wax lyrical all day about the style, the comfort and the sense of...I dunno...'otherness' that driving such a beast provided them.

It's just that I'm equally certain those folk would have owned their cars from new, punting them on just before the warranties expired.

Now the C6 (didn't one feature in a PH article the other week?) has begun it's inexorable spiral down the food chain, I could probably find a superficially good example without too much hassle. I'd then sit back and wait for the suspension to play tricks on me and for the electrics to defy the laws of physics, problems which couldn't be fixed unless I set up a standing order with the local Citroen dealership. Perhaps not even then...

It is with a heavy heart that I must resign myself to being content with the odd sighting of an XM or even a Renault Vel Satis (equally idiosyncratic in it's way) and to dream about what could be.

I hope that Citroen decides to sell this car in the UK but I'm not banking on it.

You are both wrong. Although i can see why you would come to such a conclusion. My father has driven, since 1987, two BX's, two Xantia's, 3 C5's, changed at 100,000 miles every 3-4 years depending on mileage and driving on the roughest roads imaginable around the backarses of Ireland. All of the models have been diesel, from the straight 1.7 1987 BX, to the 1.7tdi 1990 onward and all with the Hydro pneumatic suspension. The only thing that ever gave him problems were the heater plugs dying prematurely due to him not waiting for the light to go out first thing in the morning, every morning. The suspension is bulletproof. It is a work of art and is actually extremely durable. As a child he would allow me to tear around the fields of our farm in the Xantia's (the initial mark 1 1994 model or the subsequent 98 mark 2 model). No issues and the nicest handling cars I have ever driven.

His current model is a 2014 C5. While not as sweet to handle, the suspension is as good now as it has ever been. The key he says is regular maintenance, i.e.: change the oil.

Maybe your dad is David Copperfield because what he does/did to keep these cars trouble free must be magic.

I've had 3 XM's, 2 pre 2008 C5's (all bought used after they depreciated accordingly) my family had a CX back in the day. The CX still drove like a Citroen should, what followed after was a Peugeotised version of it. Regardless, I can tell you many stories on how many things went wrong with XM's and C5's. They would be bullet proof if there were no electronics, electrics and moving mechanical parts in them. Pre C5 suspension is built of elements that will go wrong sooner or later (the list is long starting from rusting sensors that are integral to the correct operation of the computer system responsible for correct operation of the suspension, through gunk build up because despite what Citroen claim you need to flush the system every 3-4 years, ending on the worst that could happen i.e. rusting strut top mounts resulting in front suspension collapse). C5 came with Hydractive 3 which eliminated some issues, e.g. they moved away from having suspension, brakes and power steering on one loop like they used to up until XM/Xantia. Funny thing about this is (from personal experience) that in an XM if the LHM pump died you were left without brakes. C5 suspension was definitely less troublesome but mainly because they simplified it and they replaced LHM with LDS which increased the longevity of the system. But they also cut corners in other places that made the car a ticking time bomb in long term.
C6 is on another level, the complexity of the electronics and the custom nature of the parts combined with low volume of production means that when (not if) things go wrong they cost 000's to put right. Not to mention that Citroen has already stopped stocking certain parts so you're stuck with a car that official dealer won't touch and independents will try to find suitable replacements on scrapyards (that applies to MK1 and MK2 C5 also). I know all this because - thanks to owning the cars mentioned above - I was on first name terms with a couple of Citroen independents who deal with Citroen's and C6 on the daily basis.

[rastapasta]

8V085 said:

rastapasta said:

Uptown said:

8V085 said:

As much as I love big hydropneumatic Citroen's C6 is one of those ones I wouldn't want to own unless it was brand new and for as long as the manufacturer's warranty was in place. Unfortunately they killed it before I had a chance.

I'll second that. I've never owned a big Citroen (hell, the largest Gallic wagon that's passed through my hands was a 205 XS...) but that doesn't mean I haven't given serious thought to taking the plunge.

Now, I'm certain that there are good ones out there and that owners could wax lyrical all day about the style, the comfort and the sense of...I dunno...'otherness' that driving such a beast provided them.

It's just that I'm equally certain those folk would have owned their cars from new, punting them on just before the warranties expired.

Now the C6 (didn't one feature in a PH article the other week?) has begun it's inexorable spiral down the food chain, I could probably find a superficially good example without too much hassle. I'd then sit back and wait for the suspension to play tricks on me and for the electrics to defy the laws of physics, problems which couldn't be fixed unless I set up a standing order with the local Citroen dealership. Perhaps not even then...

It is with a heavy heart that I must resign myself to being content with the odd sighting of an XM or even a Renault Vel Satis (equally idiosyncratic in it's way) and to dream about what could be.

I hope that Citroen decides to sell this car in the UK but I'm not banking on it.

You are both wrong. Although i can see why you would come to such a conclusion. My father has driven, since 1987, two BX's, two Xantia's, 3 C5's, changed at 100,000 miles every 3-4 years depending on mileage and driving on the roughest roads imaginable around the backarses of Ireland. All of the models have been diesel, from the straight 1.7 1987 BX, to the 1.7tdi 1990 onward and all with the Hydro pneumatic suspension. The only thing that ever gave him problems were the heater plugs dying prematurely due to him not waiting for the light to go out first thing in the morning, every morning. The suspension is bulletproof. It is a work of art and is actually extremely durable. As a child he would allow me to tear around the fields of our farm in the Xantia's (the initial mark 1 1994 model or the subsequent 98 mark 2 model). No issues and the nicest handling cars I have ever driven.

His current model is a 2014 C5. While not as sweet to handle, the suspension is as good now as it has ever been. The key he says is regular maintenance, i.e.: change the oil.

Maybe your dad is David Copperfield because what he does/did to keep these cars trouble free must be magic.

I've had 3 XM's, 2 pre 2008 C5's (all bought used after they depreciated accordingly) my family had a CX back in the day. The CX still drove like a Citroen should, what followed after was a Peugeotised version of it. Regardless, I can tell you many stories on how many things went wrong with XM's and C5's. They would be bullet proof if there were no electronics, electrics and moving mechanical parts in them. Pre C5 suspension is built of elements that will go wrong sooner or later (the list is long starting from rusting sensors that are integral to the correct operation of the computer system responsible for correct operation of the suspension, through gunk build up because despite what Citroen claim you need to flush the system every 3-4 years, ending on the worst that could happen i.e. rusting strut top mounts resulting in front suspension collapse). C5 came with Hydractive 3 which eliminated some issues, e.g. they moved away from having suspension, brakes and power steering on one loop like they used to up until XM/Xantia. Funny thing about this is (from personal experience) that in an XM if the LHM pump died you were left without brakes. C5 suspension was definitely less troublesome but mainly because they simplified it and they replaced LHM with LDS which increased the longevity of the system. But they also cut corners in other places that made the car a ticking time bomb in long term.
C6 is on another level, the complexity of the electronics and the custom nature of the parts combined with low volume of production means that when (not if) things go wrong they cost 000's to put right. Not to mention that Citroen has already stopped stocking certain parts so you're stuck with a car that official dealer won't touch and independents will try to find suitable replacements on scrapyards (that applies to MK1 and MK2 C5 also). I know all this because - thanks to owning the cars mentioned above - I was on first name terms with a couple of Citroen independents who deal with Citroen's and C6 on the daily basis.

I guess what you say and the experiences you have had tally with what alot of peoples experiences have been whom I have spoken to. I would spout on that Citroens are bombproof and then someone would pipe up with the 'eh hold on a sec buddy...'.

As I mentioned it I spoke to him and asked him what went wrong with them consistantly: 'Heater plugs and bushings'... And he NEVER spared the cars. He drove like a nutter over truely shocking roads (hes calmed down in retirement) I recall him using the cars in towing situations where the tractor would be more appropriate.

[TooMany2cvs]

8V085 said:

Funny thing about this is (from personal experience) that in an XM if the LHM pump died you were left without brakes.

Only if you ignore the pressure warning light and heavy steering then, when the accumulator starts to go flat, the suspension dropping, then - finally - the brakes...

There's a security valve in the system whose sole job is to prioritise pressure remaining to the brakes.

[swisstoni]

I ran a second hand Mk1 C5 with hydractive for 9 years. Nothing went wrong with the suspension despite being hammered over potholes and speed bumps every time it went out.

[brizza]

My dad had a 94 M reg XM British racing green, very similar to the one in the photo at the bottom! 2.1 turbo diesel. extraordinary car, he could get 60mpg out of it and it was pretty spritely! Great for ferrying around 2-3 German shepherds around in and all his work stuff. really miss that car.

[TooMany2cvs]

I did 70k each in a very late CX GTi (from about 100k, IIRC), then an XM turbo petrol (from 60k). Neither let me down horribly, both had niggles.

The biggest niggle was the digital climate in the XM. I never did get to the bottom of it - several panels, a couple of flap motors etc. Apart from that, it was all relatively minor stuff.

[rtz62]

My brother has always plunged a different furrow.
His first car was an old yellow Polo which he adorned with ‘CND’, ‘Ban The Bomb’ and ‘Nuclear Power? Nein danke!’ Stickers.
Bit of a yoghurt-weaving, muesli-treading sandal wearer to be honest.
And after an early model Scirroco he turned all French.
Several BX estates followed, all with differing levels of moss growing on the window rubbers, before he bought a CX estate (‘I bought because it could hold my dogs and it had the longest model name I’d ever heard of; Citroen CX 25 DTR Turbo 2 Familiale’).
This was followed by a couple of XM estates, and I grudgingly started to think he was actually half decent at choosing cars.
Until a few months ago our mum tells us he has a new estate car.
So I pooped round, expecting to see some left-wing stickered Citroen Or Renault estate.
Only to see a black Audi A6 tdi Avant.
That cemented my views of his motoring prowess; tt.

[daemon]

Ex X Power said:

Agreed, We dont.... Only good thing is that if you can find one You'll pick up a fully loaded 5yr old barge for peanuts becasue everyone is too scared of maintaining it / doesnt know what it is / is a badge snob

You won't because they won't sell enough to have any impact on the used car market.

Any that do sell will end up holding their value reasonably well as enthusiasts will snap them up.

That's the way the C6 went.

[8V085]

TooMany2cvs said:

8V085 said:

Funny thing about this is (from personal experience) that in an XM if the LHM pump died you were left without brakes.

Only if you ignore the pressure warning light and heavy steering then, when the accumulator starts to go flat, the suspension dropping, then - finally - the brakes...

There's a security valve in the system whose sole job is to prioritise pressure remaining to the brakes.

Well, brakes failed seconds after STOP light lit up so it didn't work as designed in this particular instance. It was a 2.5TD estate which caused me stloads of trouble and I never even tried to get to the bottom of what exactly failed together with LHM pump afterwards.

[TooMany2cvs]

8V085 said:

Well, brakes failed seconds after STOP light lit up so it didn't work as designed in this particular instance.

Ah. The accumulator sphere had never been changed, and it was flat.

[StephenGalley]

I also don't think it will be brought to the U.K., large French cars do not sell well here, a shame because I'm partial to large saloons and a choice is always good. Small French cars still sell reasonably well here though so that is probably what they want to concentrate on.

[Ocellia]

Just sold my 42K mile 3 litre XM last sept! After owning DSs, CXs......
I really got the XM to 'complete the set', after 8 years of Lexus LSs.
Still love the DS + CX look. (And ride quality)

Edited by Ocellia on Friday 19th January 12:50

Edited by Ocellia on Friday 19th January 12:52

[saaby93]

Ocellia said:

Just sold my 42K mile 3 litre XM last sept! After owning DSs, CXs......
I really got the XM to 'complete the set', after 8 years of Lexus LSs.
Still love the DS + CX look. (And ride quality)

Jeez.
Instead of rebranding Peugeots and Citroens as DS why dont they get that back on the production lines