Giulia. New segment leader? Would you buy one?
Discussion
telecat said:
Ares said:
akirk said:
All this does is demonstrate a misunderstanding as to what performance is / means
performance is not just about outright speed, though I accept that many powerful cars are sold to many not very talented people for whom speed is the main criteria!
performance is a combination of things - speed is certainly one, but I would argue that one of the top elements is reaction or response in the car - how does the car translate the driver's commands (right or wrong) to the road - so you move the steering wheel / how does the car respond... you change gear - how quickly do you get put into the gear you have chosen... etc.
One of the outstanding memories from last year for me was driving an e63 AMG through some great Scottish roads - phenomenal car - and oh so frustrating... every decision you made went through a bank of computers, each of which decided whether or not to obey your input / vary it / block it / change it - corner approaching - I want xyz gear - sorry, the computer says no, in fact at this speed and on the straight, the computer has decided to change up instead of your clearly foolish request to change down... Nothing to do with protecting the car and not blowing up the engine - simply that the engineers didn't anticipate a driver who wants to be free to make their own decisions...
So instead of buying a car like that (on my short list) I went and bought a proper car - manual M5, now when I choose to change gear, the car does exactly what I tell it to do - yes, I might get it wrong, but I am all grown up and will take responsibility for that, but equally, I might just have made that choice as it is what I want from the car - having a dumb machine argue with you has to be the most frustrating thing a driver can experience...
so, yes, for the driver who thinks that performance is all about straight line speed then the e63 AMG will be a better car than my smaller-engined M5 - but for the driver who actually wants to drive the car, the performance from the e63 is very lacking and the manual M5 gives a far better response!
You are right.performance is not just about outright speed, though I accept that many powerful cars are sold to many not very talented people for whom speed is the main criteria!
performance is a combination of things - speed is certainly one, but I would argue that one of the top elements is reaction or response in the car - how does the car translate the driver's commands (right or wrong) to the road - so you move the steering wheel / how does the car respond... you change gear - how quickly do you get put into the gear you have chosen... etc.
One of the outstanding memories from last year for me was driving an e63 AMG through some great Scottish roads - phenomenal car - and oh so frustrating... every decision you made went through a bank of computers, each of which decided whether or not to obey your input / vary it / block it / change it - corner approaching - I want xyz gear - sorry, the computer says no, in fact at this speed and on the straight, the computer has decided to change up instead of your clearly foolish request to change down... Nothing to do with protecting the car and not blowing up the engine - simply that the engineers didn't anticipate a driver who wants to be free to make their own decisions...
So instead of buying a car like that (on my short list) I went and bought a proper car - manual M5, now when I choose to change gear, the car does exactly what I tell it to do - yes, I might get it wrong, but I am all grown up and will take responsibility for that, but equally, I might just have made that choice as it is what I want from the car - having a dumb machine argue with you has to be the most frustrating thing a driver can experience...
so, yes, for the driver who thinks that performance is all about straight line speed then the e63 AMG will be a better car than my smaller-engined M5 - but for the driver who actually wants to drive the car, the performance from the e63 is very lacking and the manual M5 gives a far better response!
However, on speed of reaction, how do you reconcile that nowadays, autos are quicker to respond and quicker to act/react than even the best driver in the best manual?
yes an auto is faster at the physical change but if even 1 in 10 changes result in the car saying no thanks then that is a very slow result and not acceptable... and I am yet to drive the auto which always does what I want / gets it right every time...
the perfect combination is when driver and car work together as one, not when they are battling each other...
Ozone said:
I'm currently in a manual Golf R and was tempted by the Giulia.
I went to the dealer and got a test drive in a Veloce expecting it to be reasonably sporty. I left it in sport mode and put my foot down and was very underwhelmed, maybe I expected too much. The suspension was good and it handled well over a bump surface.
I've never had an auto and the Alfa box with it's massive paddles was not particularly responsive, again maybe I expected too much.
It's a nice place to sit and everything fell to hand and it cruised nicely. The 280bhp Veloce is definitely not sporty.
The Mrs used to have an Alfa GT from new and it broke monthly, the Giulia didn't inspire me enough to take the risk.
Define ‘sporty’ then, I’d be interested to see how you felt it didn’t measure up.I went to the dealer and got a test drive in a Veloce expecting it to be reasonably sporty. I left it in sport mode and put my foot down and was very underwhelmed, maybe I expected too much. The suspension was good and it handled well over a bump surface.
I've never had an auto and the Alfa box with it's massive paddles was not particularly responsive, again maybe I expected too much.
It's a nice place to sit and everything fell to hand and it cruised nicely. The 280bhp Veloce is definitely not sporty.
The Mrs used to have an Alfa GT from new and it broke monthly, the Giulia didn't inspire me enough to take the risk.
SidewaysSi said:
I love driving so would always pick a manual in any remotely sporty car. Autos in so called sports cars just frustrate as I like to H and T etc.
Nice in a wafty old barge but not in anything remotely driver focused.
But then I dislike servo brakes, PAS etc.
Wow you must be a driving god.Nice in a wafty old barge but not in anything remotely driver focused.
But then I dislike servo brakes, PAS etc.
StephenGalley said:
SidewaysSi said:
I love driving so would always pick a manual in any remotely sporty car. Autos in so called sports cars just frustrate as I like to H and T etc.
Nice in a wafty old barge but not in anything remotely driver focused.
But then I dislike servo brakes, PAS etc.
Wow you must be a driving god.Nice in a wafty old barge but not in anything remotely driver focused.
But then I dislike servo brakes, PAS etc.
t is usually labelled a driving God on here.By that definition - damn right I am.
Answering the original question...
I think it certainly competes well with the Germans in most respects.
The giulia's driving dynamics are just sublime and its biggest strength. It's a very well balanced car - well judged for the road - with a excellent compromise between comfort and sportiness on the standard springs.
Looks wise it's a step back from the 159 IMHO - but then that was a very hard act to follow. I like how the giulia still looks decent in base spec - the same can't really be said for the Germans which need to be s-line/amg/m-sport to look the part.
The interior is also perfectly adequate for the compact exec class. The a4 is still the best in class, but the giulia doesn't embarrass itself to the point of not buying one on that basis. At least it doesn't have a £20 matsui tablet bolted on like the c-class!
I think it certainly competes well with the Germans in most respects.
The giulia's driving dynamics are just sublime and its biggest strength. It's a very well balanced car - well judged for the road - with a excellent compromise between comfort and sportiness on the standard springs.
Looks wise it's a step back from the 159 IMHO - but then that was a very hard act to follow. I like how the giulia still looks decent in base spec - the same can't really be said for the Germans which need to be s-line/amg/m-sport to look the part.
The interior is also perfectly adequate for the compact exec class. The a4 is still the best in class, but the giulia doesn't embarrass itself to the point of not buying one on that basis. At least it doesn't have a £20 matsui tablet bolted on like the c-class!
SidewaysSi said:
StephenGalley said:
SidewaysSi said:
I love driving so would always pick a manual in any remotely sporty car. Autos in so called sports cars just frustrate as I like to H and T etc.
Nice in a wafty old barge but not in anything remotely driver focused.
But then I dislike servo brakes, PAS etc.
Wow you must be a driving god.Nice in a wafty old barge but not in anything remotely driver focused.
But then I dislike servo brakes, PAS etc.
t is usually labelled a driving God on here.By that definition - damn right I am.
RobM77 said:
Absolutely. Plus a direct drive, without a layer of mush between your right foot and the wheels (although admittedly the latest ZF does lock the torque converter when in gear), and the ability to think ahead and prepare the car for a corner and then control the car through the corner - no auto box knows what's coming up next! Keep em for wafting is what I say, that's what they're best at.
StephenGalley said:
SidewaysSi said:
StephenGalley said:
SidewaysSi said:
I love driving so would always pick a manual in any remotely sporty car. Autos in so called sports cars just frustrate as I like to H and T etc.
Nice in a wafty old barge but not in anything remotely driver focused.
But then I dislike servo brakes, PAS etc.
Wow you must be a driving god.Nice in a wafty old barge but not in anything remotely driver focused.
But then I dislike servo brakes, PAS etc.
t is usually labelled a driving God on here.By that definition - damn right I am.
Rawwr said:
RobM77 said:
Absolutely. Plus a direct drive, without a layer of mush between your right foot and the wheels (although admittedly the latest ZF does lock the torque converter when in gear), and the ability to think ahead and prepare the car for a corner and then control the car through the corner - no auto box knows what's coming up next! Keep em for wafting is what I say, that's what they're best at.velocemitch said:
Ozone said:
I'm currently in a manual Golf R and was tempted by the Giulia.
I went to the dealer and got a test drive in a Veloce expecting it to be reasonably sporty. I left it in sport mode and put my foot down and was very underwhelmed, maybe I expected too much. The suspension was good and it handled well over a bump surface.
I've never had an auto and the Alfa box with it's massive paddles was not particularly responsive, again maybe I expected too much.
It's a nice place to sit and everything fell to hand and it cruised nicely. The 280bhp Veloce is definitely not sporty.
The Mrs used to have an Alfa GT from new and it broke monthly, the Giulia didn't inspire me enough to take the risk.
Define ‘sporty’ then, I’d be interested to see how you felt it didn’t measure up.I went to the dealer and got a test drive in a Veloce expecting it to be reasonably sporty. I left it in sport mode and put my foot down and was very underwhelmed, maybe I expected too much. The suspension was good and it handled well over a bump surface.
I've never had an auto and the Alfa box with it's massive paddles was not particularly responsive, again maybe I expected too much.
It's a nice place to sit and everything fell to hand and it cruised nicely. The 280bhp Veloce is definitely not sporty.
The Mrs used to have an Alfa GT from new and it broke monthly, the Giulia didn't inspire me enough to take the risk.
As I said I selected sport mode and put my foot down on a straight and my wife looked at me and said "is that it"? It did seem to change gear very early or not get to the rev limit before changing.
Maybe I needed more time than the 20minutes that I had to adjust to the car but I was left disappointed.
SidewaysSi said:
StephenGalley said:
SidewaysSi said:
StephenGalley said:
SidewaysSi said:
I love driving so would always pick a manual in any remotely sporty car. Autos in so called sports cars just frustrate as I like to H and T etc.
Nice in a wafty old barge but not in anything remotely driver focused.
But then I dislike servo brakes, PAS etc.
Wow you must be a driving god.Nice in a wafty old barge but not in anything remotely driver focused.
But then I dislike servo brakes, PAS etc.
t is usually labelled a driving God on here.By that definition - damn right I am.
Ozone said:
velocemitch said:
Ozone said:
I'm currently in a manual Golf R and was tempted by the Giulia.
I went to the dealer and got a test drive in a Veloce expecting it to be reasonably sporty. I left it in sport mode and put my foot down and was very underwhelmed, maybe I expected too much. The suspension was good and it handled well over a bump surface.
I've never had an auto and the Alfa box with it's massive paddles was not particularly responsive, again maybe I expected too much.
It's a nice place to sit and everything fell to hand and it cruised nicely. The 280bhp Veloce is definitely not sporty.
The Mrs used to have an Alfa GT from new and it broke monthly, the Giulia didn't inspire me enough to take the risk.
Define ‘sporty’ then, I’d be interested to see how you felt it didn’t measure up.I went to the dealer and got a test drive in a Veloce expecting it to be reasonably sporty. I left it in sport mode and put my foot down and was very underwhelmed, maybe I expected too much. The suspension was good and it handled well over a bump surface.
I've never had an auto and the Alfa box with it's massive paddles was not particularly responsive, again maybe I expected too much.
It's a nice place to sit and everything fell to hand and it cruised nicely. The 280bhp Veloce is definitely not sporty.
The Mrs used to have an Alfa GT from new and it broke monthly, the Giulia didn't inspire me enough to take the risk.
As I said I selected sport mode and put my foot down on a straight and my wife looked at me and said "is that it"? It did seem to change gear very early or not get to the rev limit before changing.
Maybe I needed more time than the 20minutes that I had to adjust to the car but I was left disappointed.
Have to say the Car is an excellent cruiser, but the few chances I’ve had so far to push it on the back roads it’s impressed me how quickly it covers the ground without ‘feeling’ like it’s being pushed. The suspension and steering just seem so well judged. That came across on the Evo report for COTY.
At the end of the day though it’s physically bigger than a Golf, slightly heavier ( though not much) and slightly less powerful than the R, and as a Saloon not directly comparable perhaps?.
You could be right Mitch. I was thinking with the power being nearly the same as the Golf and an Auto it would give me a bit of a wow.
Previously I had an M135 which was an absolute joy to drive and I was hoping the Veloce would give a similar ride being RWD with a bit of power.
Maybe my expectations were unreasonably high. And I can't have my wife saying is that it
Previously I had an M135 which was an absolute joy to drive and I was hoping the Veloce would give a similar ride being RWD with a bit of power.
Maybe my expectations were unreasonably high. And I can't have my wife saying is that it
Ares said:
RobM77 said:
Ares said:
As is calling any car with an Auto, boring.
....and you realise that BMW sells way more autos than manuals don't you? That's because, aside from men that think not have a stick manual affects their masculinity, most drivers realise they are now way better
Most drivers want boring and effortless, that's why autos are popular. An auto suits that perfectly. Even most drivers of performance cars don't actually enjoy or even understand any more than just the power of a performance car - handling and driving through corners is a niche interest, which is why manuals are a niche thing, I freely accept that.....and you realise that BMW sells way more autos than manuals don't you? That's because, aside from men that think not have a stick manual affects their masculinity, most drivers realise they are now way better
Same as when servo brakes came in, 'real' drivers didn't want it as it robbed the car of brake feel.
I guess that means you can have numb, electronic brakes to go with your numb electronic throttle, numb electronic steering and numb electronic gearbox.
Yay progress.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff