Giulia. New segment leader? Would you buy one?

[Yipper]

vsonix said:

Unfortunately I can only speak hypothetically but I would certainly give one a try. It's a new car so if it turns out to be plagued with unreliability issues it gets sent back. However the sad truth of the matter is that by the time I eventually get my hands on one it'll be at SOTW prices and people on hypernet forums will be calling them the epitome of 'counselcharvy'.

Is it the segment leader? No - because Alfa will never be able to match Merc and BM for volume and sales, but will it stir up interest in Alfa Romeo and indeed Italian cars in general again after a couple of decades where they went from being ubiquitous to practically non-existent in this country, probably yes.

If they can keep the build quality and after-sales .service on-point then it certainly sees the start of a return to form for Alfa. Back to creating cars that people can get really excited about as opposed to looking at them, and sighing "oh, well I suppose it's quite nice" then go back to buying German or Japanese again.

Alfa today is doing better on "reliability".

But its "quality" is still quite shocking. Cars regularly leave dealers with washer-bottles unfilled or tyres underinflated, while rusty wheel bolts, faulty fuel gauges, wobbly heater knobs and exposed wiring are often seen within weeks of delivery (check the forums). It's not the 1970s anymore.

[tomic]

When are they bringing out the 2 door coupe, 4 door coupe, Estate, 4WD Allroad Estate, Convertible, Gran Turismo, Manual, Hybrid and Plugin Hybrid versions then?

I'd imagine the answer to the bulk of these questions is never, same as with the Jaguar XE. It may be the segment leader, but it's a very narrow segment it's operating in. The Germans will still massively outsell it as all 3 of them offer most or all of the above.

Edited by tomic on Friday 19th January 15:55

[E31Shrew]

I've had my Giulia Diesel Speciale since June last year. The company deal is a 420D or equivalent value, so I took the bull by the horns and went off piste, to the general guffaws from the rest of the office.
After 17000 trouble free miles, averaging 50mpg coupled with great handling , I'm smitten.
The dealers are certainly few and far between, and as the car is leased from Lex the nearest to me is 130 miles away for servicing. I haven't seen a frothing cup of latte there but they're keen and enthusiastic unlike my local BMW cathedral.
The interior trim isn't quite up to the likes of BMW , Audi or Mercedes but no biggie as overall it's a much more pleasant drive.
All in all its a great car. The auto box is a peach and with 90% of my driving being on motorways the thought of a manual box would fill me with dread. With the dna setting its still quite capable of a relatively quick pick up.


And it hasn't even started rusting!

[Ares]

telecat said:

Ares said:

akirk said:

All this does is demonstrate a misunderstanding as to what performance is / means

performance is not just about outright speed, though I accept that many powerful cars are sold to many not very talented people for whom speed is the main criteria!

performance is a combination of things - speed is certainly one, but I would argue that one of the top elements is reaction or response in the car - how does the car translate the driver's commands (right or wrong) to the road - so you move the steering wheel / how does the car respond... you change gear - how quickly do you get put into the gear you have chosen... etc.

One of the outstanding memories from last year for me was driving an e63 AMG through some great Scottish roads - phenomenal car - and oh so frustrating... every decision you made went through a bank of computers, each of which decided whether or not to obey your input / vary it / block it / change it - corner approaching - I want xyz gear - sorry, the computer says no, in fact at this speed and on the straight, the computer has decided to change up instead of your clearly foolish request to change down... Nothing to do with protecting the car and not blowing up the engine - simply that the engineers didn't anticipate a driver who wants to be free to make their own decisions...

So instead of buying a car like that (on my short list) I went and bought a proper car - manual M5, now when I choose to change gear, the car does exactly what I tell it to do - yes, I might get it wrong, but I am all grown up and will take responsibility for that, but equally, I might just have made that choice as it is what I want from the car - having a dumb machine argue with you has to be the most frustrating thing a driver can experience...

so, yes, for the driver who thinks that performance is all about straight line speed then the e63 AMG will be a better car than my smaller-engined M5 - but for the driver who actually wants to drive the car, the performance from the e63 is very lacking and the manual M5 gives a far better response!

You are right.

However, on speed of reaction, how do you reconcile that nowadays, autos are quicker to respond and quicker to act/react than even the best driver in the best manual?

As somebody said. All the right gears are in there. its whether they are selected in the right order. It's very little use having a well programmed box if it's programming means what it does is decide to do something else from what you wanted.

But in reality that doesn't happen. And in anything remotely sporting, you have full manual control as well?

[Dannbodge]

If they did an estate version I'd love one.

Specced up one on the Alfa website yesterday and it's a beautiful looking car.

[Ares]

akirk said:

exactly...
yes an auto is faster at the physical change but if even 1 in 10 changes result in the car saying no thanks then that is a very slow result and not acceptable... and I am yet to drive the auto which always does what I want / gets it right every time...

the perfect combination is when driver and car work together as one, not when they are battling each other...

What autos have you driven? Right from my 2007 330i, I've never had an auto that has done something other that what I would want?

Conversely, I do sometimes get 3rd/5th and 2nd/4th mixed up on Mrs Ares' MINI.

[Ares]

Ozone said:

Sporty for me is where the car reacts to inputs quickly, I found the Giulia didn't particularly do that. Like I said nice for cruising but not for throwing around a/b roads. I don't think the gearbox helped but the car gave me the impression of being sluggish changing direction and making progress.
As I said I selected sport mode and put my foot down on a straight and my wife looked at me and said "is that it"? It did seem to change gear very early or not get to the rev limit before changing.
Maybe I needed more time than the 20minutes that I had to adjust to the car but I was left disappointed.

There isn't a 'sport' mode. Sounds like you were in Advanced Efficiency by accident, that short shifts

[Ares]

NDNDNDND said:

Funny you should mention brake servoes - I've seen a few articles criticising the Giulia's 'numb' drive-by-wire brakes. I've also seen a couple of American forum posts complaining about 'latency'. Apparently 'brake lag' is now a thing.

I guess that means you can have numb, electronic brakes to go with your numb electronic throttle, numb electronic steering and numb electronic gearbox.

Yay progress.

Thats right. Numb is how most people have described the drive.

[Ares]

200Plus Club said:

To be fair the chap has a point. The lack of "great" service at Alfa dealerships and potential resale depreciation has stopped me buying a brand new QF, despite it being absolutely stunning to drive.
My local Alfa dealers were useless sorting a test drive and px offer on my R8. I might have jumped in had they not made it frustrating and time consuming.
I'm still watching prices and they are now from £49k used already and £55k will get one with say 2k miles on it. That's a massive saving and very tempting as a next car.

Mine were too. But I ordered through a Broker and the supplying dealer, 80miles away, was amazing.

Given my cars have only ever been to a dealer, on average once a year, even travelling past 2 dealers to the supplying dealer isn't a hardship...and certainly wouldn't put me off a great car?

Resale is a totally different issue. But smart money leases in the current climate

[Ares]

akirk said:

but no car / technology can know what is coming up next, AND how the driver wishes to drive it...

No car/gearbox can know what is coming next? Any car/gearbox relies on the driver to set the car up via pedals/paddles/sticks?

[Ares]

RobM77 said:

You're both surely referring to the gearboxes' abilities to predict what's coming next in a straight line (i.e. an accelerating driver in 3rd will likely need 4th next, and vice versa). That wasn't the point I was making! In fact it was the very opposite. That's one of the main problems I have with auto boxes - let's say you want to enjoy a corner at 3-4k revs in 3rd gear, but the auto box thinks you should be in 4th or even 5th - annoying! Then you start to accelerate from the apex onwards, when the auto box shuffles down a gear mid corner to give you the torque you need (it probably thinks you were stuck behind a tractor and are now trying to overtake it) - a complete and utter mess. This is why, as far as I know, no purpose built racing car has ever had an automatic gearbox, and certainly no good driver's cars either (some, like the NSX, had auto options, but they were st and nobody physically capable of changing gear who liked driving went for them). Given that the gearbox doesn't make a car noisier or less refined, why not have that joy of control that a manual gearbox gives you in a sports saloon? Why limit it to sports cars? When I see a B road, I want to enjoy the drive. As I said though, if you want to waft along, buy an auto. I don't. The problem I have with Alfa is they don't give us that choice with the Giulia.

The scenario you describe does't happen though, except in efficiency modes. Stick a car in sport/dynamic/etc mode, and it will hold the gear if you are using any throttle.

And you have always got easily accessible manual control over and above if you want further control.

[Ares]

Rawwr said:

Someone asked earlier in the thread if the Performante and Speciale were boring cars and no, they're not boring cars but I'd argue they'd be more fun, more involving and offer a more tactile, pleasing experience with a manual gearbox. Just a shame it's not an option.

It's not an option because when it was, no-one bought them!

[velocemitch]

Ares said:

Rawwr said:

Someone asked earlier in the thread if the Performante and Speciale were boring cars and no, they're not boring cars but I'd argue they'd be more fun, more involving and offer a more tactile, pleasing experience with a manual gearbox. Just a shame it's not an option.

It's not an option because when it was, no-one bought them!

it is an option on the continent, it would be interesting to see how many take it.

Truth is Alfa (or FCA) can't afford the investment of engineering a RHD manual for the miniscule sales it would attract. All of whom seem to be on this forum.

It seems we are unlikely to get a Sportwagon for similar reasons, the big sales are expected to be in China and USA, who just don't do Estates. Stelvio will have to suffice for the small number of Alfa buyers who just must have a hatch....., or you could do what i did buy a Giulia and a cheapo SUV to chuck the Dog in and tow with.

[Rawwr]

Ares said:

It's not an option because when it was, no-one bought them!

Apart from the people who bought them.

[DoubleD]

Its a shame that a manual option isnt offered for those that enjoy changing gear themselves.

[RicksAlfas]

I had a manual box BMW and it was an awful gearchange.


Modern autos - if you want it to be in third for a corner, why not just use the paddles to put it in third? My current car (Merc 7 speed auto) will let me do that as will my ancient (4 speed!) Range Rover. I am sure the ZF 8 speed will too.

[akirk]

Ares said:

What autos have you driven? Right from my 2007 330i, I've never had an auto that has done something other that what I would want?

Conversely, I do sometimes get 3rd/5th and 2nd/4th mixed up on Mrs Ares' MINI.

Lots I own two autos - classic RR in which it is perfect - doze off in the armchair seat while reading the paper and the car blunders on... / z3 in which it is not ideal (but car was v. cheap, so kept as a fun soft-top - would prefer a manual) - can stick it in 'manual mode' but car will still make independent choices and change at times... e.g. when slowing down it will drop back to second gear - you then go to do the same and find you push into first gear which you didn't want...

but in addition to those I have driven modern / old / computerised / non-computerised - pre-selectors / auto boxes / manual mode / no manual mode etc. and am still to find one which is anyway close to what I am choosing for it to do...

an example I have given above was the e63 AMG - every choice you make - even in manual - there was a feeling that it was deciding whether to let you or not - nowhere near as nice as a manual... as for modern 911s - there is a reason they build some cars with a manual gearbox - because the auto still doesn't offer the same feel

Ares said:

The scenario you describe does't happen though, except in efficiency modes. Stick a car in sport/dynamic/etc mode, and it will hold the gear if you are using any throttle.

And you have always got easily accessible manual control over and above if you want further control.

Until it chooses to change up / down

let's acknowledge - you like autos and think they are amazing - you can't see a reason not to have them, but I and others prefer to have manual - I have no doubt that for many drivers an auto is a far better choice - and it is great to see their capability improved so much - but if you want control / and to have input on what happens then there isn't yet an auto which matches a manual...

[theplayingmantis]

Ares said:

treeroy said:

Yes, I'd choose it in a heartbeat. They look amazing. They have character and are not bland like the german equivalents.

There's a dealer near me, I took a test drive of an Abarth last year and the Giulia had just arrived, the sales rep was complaining to me that his manager wouldn't let him drive the Giulia QV lol. and apparently if you want to test drive it you have to give them £2000

If true/still the case, it's that attitude that will stifle their development in the UK. That said, from experience, other marque's dealers are no better.

My local dealer wanted something similar for a QV test drive. No wonder they are losing the franchise. I went one town over and got the test drive as per normal. Cost my local dealer a sale. That and the fact they employ convicted fraudsters (fraud in the car sales industry). Never had this issue in equivalent vehicle test for ze Germans.

[Ozone]

Ares said:

There isn't a 'sport' mode. Sounds like you were in Advanced Efficiency by accident, that short shifts

That explains why I think it's not sporty, there isn't a 'sport' mode!

[RobM77]

DoubleD said:

Its a shame that a manual option isnt offered for those that enjoy changing gear themselves.

This is precisely my point. I've no wish to convert an auto lovers into manual lovers, and I find the reverse tiresome and pointless. Some people just have a strong preference for one or the other - just like RWD or FWD or turbo or n/a; we all have our preferences. It's all the more weird because in mainland Europe a manual box is available. As another poster pointed out earlier, the car itself doesn't offer the variety of other marques either - unlike a 3 series there's no estate options, or GT option, coupé option etc. I guess that Alfa and Jag (the XE is the same) just don't expect to sell their cars in enough numbers to justify it?