Giulia. New segment leader? Would you buy one?
Discussion
Dr Gitlin said:
The gear stick (in both QVs I've driven and the 2.0L) had some hard edges, as did the grab handles on the center console. But you know what? It doesn't matter. Neither does the lack of NVH. It all just adds to the character.
Merc's infotainment system is nothing to write home about (although the new MBUX that's debuting the A Class is almost on a par with Audi's latest MMI and Volvo's Sensus, which are probably the two best systems on the market right now. iDrive 6 is good, but it's not as good as either of those two.
"Neither does the lack of Noise Vibration & Harshness" ??Merc's infotainment system is nothing to write home about (although the new MBUX that's debuting the A Class is almost on a par with Audi's latest MMI and Volvo's Sensus, which are probably the two best systems on the market right now. iDrive 6 is good, but it's not as good as either of those two.
underphil said:
Dr Gitlin said:
The gear stick (in both QVs I've driven and the 2.0L) had some hard edges, as did the grab handles on the center console. But you know what? It doesn't matter. Neither does the lack of NVH. It all just adds to the character.
Merc's infotainment system is nothing to write home about (although the new MBUX that's debuting the A Class is almost on a par with Audi's latest MMI and Volvo's Sensus, which are probably the two best systems on the market right now. iDrive 6 is good, but it's not as good as either of those two.
"Neither does the lack of Noise Vibration & Harshness" ??Merc's infotainment system is nothing to write home about (although the new MBUX that's debuting the A Class is almost on a par with Audi's latest MMI and Volvo's Sensus, which are probably the two best systems on the market right now. iDrive 6 is good, but it's not as good as either of those two.
t road surfaces we have here. OK, I'm only comparing it to higher spec 3-series, 5 series and 6 series, but it is harsher.Ares said:
akirk said:
All this does is demonstrate a misunderstanding as to what performance is / means
performance is not just about outright speed, though I accept that many powerful cars are sold to many not very talented people for whom speed is the main criteria!
performance is a combination of things - speed is certainly one, but I would argue that one of the top elements is reaction or response in the car - how does the car translate the driver's commands (right or wrong) to the road - so you move the steering wheel / how does the car respond... you change gear - how quickly do you get put into the gear you have chosen... etc.
One of the outstanding memories from last year for me was driving an e63 AMG through some great Scottish roads - phenomenal car - and oh so frustrating... every decision you made went through a bank of computers, each of which decided whether or not to obey your input / vary it / block it / change it - corner approaching - I want xyz gear - sorry, the computer says no, in fact at this speed and on the straight, the computer has decided to change up instead of your clearly foolish request to change down... Nothing to do with protecting the car and not blowing up the engine - simply that the engineers didn't anticipate a driver who wants to be free to make their own decisions...
So instead of buying a car like that (on my short list) I went and bought a proper car - manual M5, now when I choose to change gear, the car does exactly what I tell it to do - yes, I might get it wrong, but I am all grown up and will take responsibility for that, but equally, I might just have made that choice as it is what I want from the car - having a dumb machine argue with you has to be the most frustrating thing a driver can experience...
so, yes, for the driver who thinks that performance is all about straight line speed then the e63 AMG will be a better car than my smaller-engined M5 - but for the driver who actually wants to drive the car, the performance from the e63 is very lacking and the manual M5 gives a far better response!
You are right.performance is not just about outright speed, though I accept that many powerful cars are sold to many not very talented people for whom speed is the main criteria!
performance is a combination of things - speed is certainly one, but I would argue that one of the top elements is reaction or response in the car - how does the car translate the driver's commands (right or wrong) to the road - so you move the steering wheel / how does the car respond... you change gear - how quickly do you get put into the gear you have chosen... etc.
One of the outstanding memories from last year for me was driving an e63 AMG through some great Scottish roads - phenomenal car - and oh so frustrating... every decision you made went through a bank of computers, each of which decided whether or not to obey your input / vary it / block it / change it - corner approaching - I want xyz gear - sorry, the computer says no, in fact at this speed and on the straight, the computer has decided to change up instead of your clearly foolish request to change down... Nothing to do with protecting the car and not blowing up the engine - simply that the engineers didn't anticipate a driver who wants to be free to make their own decisions...
So instead of buying a car like that (on my short list) I went and bought a proper car - manual M5, now when I choose to change gear, the car does exactly what I tell it to do - yes, I might get it wrong, but I am all grown up and will take responsibility for that, but equally, I might just have made that choice as it is what I want from the car - having a dumb machine argue with you has to be the most frustrating thing a driver can experience...
so, yes, for the driver who thinks that performance is all about straight line speed then the e63 AMG will be a better car than my smaller-engined M5 - but for the driver who actually wants to drive the car, the performance from the e63 is very lacking and the manual M5 gives a far better response!
However, on speed of reaction, how do you reconcile that nowadays, autos are quicker to respond and quicker to act/react than even the best driver in the best manual?
The Germans own about 80-90% of the exec car segment. They've nailed brand image, interior quality for snobs, exterior design that looks good enough, and high pricing and heavy discounting without looking cheap. No matter how unreliable they are, British folk keep on buying German. The Italians, like Alfa, have zero chance of making a serious dent in that market. Just ask Lexus.
As for manuals -- they are a technology from the last century. Auto is king, now.
As for manuals -- they are a technology from the last century. Auto is king, now.
akirk said:
Ares said:
RobM77 said:
Ares said:
As is calling any car with an Auto, boring.
....and you realise that BMW sells way more autos than manuals don't you? That's because, aside from men that think not have a stick manual affects their masculinity, most drivers realise they are now way better
Most drivers want boring and effortless, that's why autos are popular. An auto suits that perfectly. Even most drivers of performance cars don't actually enjoy or even understand any more than just the power of a performance car - handling and driving through corners is a niche interest, which is why manuals are a niche thing, I freely accept that.....and you realise that BMW sells way more autos than manuals don't you? That's because, aside from men that think not have a stick manual affects their masculinity, most drivers realise they are now way better
Same as when servo brakes came in, 'real' drivers didn't want it as it robbed the car of brake feel.
performance is not just about outright speed, though I accept that many powerful cars are sold to many not very talented people for whom speed is the main criteria!
performance is a combination of things - speed is certainly one, but I would argue that one of the top elements is reaction or response in the car - how does the car translate the driver's commands (right or wrong) to the road - so you move the steering wheel / how does the car respond... you change gear - how quickly do you get put into the gear you have chosen... etc.
One of the outstanding memories from last year for me was driving an e63 AMG through some great Scottish roads - phenomenal car - and oh so frustrating... every decision you made went through a bank of computers, each of which decided whether or not to obey your input / vary it / block it / change it - corner approaching - I want xyz gear - sorry, the computer says no, in fact at this speed and on the straight, the computer has decided to change up instead of your clearly foolish request to change down... Nothing to do with protecting the car and not blowing up the engine - simply that the engineers didn't anticipate a driver who wants to be free to make their own decisions...
So instead of buying a car like that (on my short list) I went and bought a proper car - manual M5, now when I choose to change gear, the car does exactly what I tell it to do - yes, I might get it wrong, but I am all grown up and will take responsibility for that, but equally, I might just have made that choice as it is what I want from the car - having a dumb machine argue with you has to be the most frustrating thing a driver can experience...
so, yes, for the driver who thinks that performance is all about straight line speed then the e63 AMG will be a better car than my smaller-engined M5 - but for the driver who actually wants to drive the car, the performance from the e63 is very lacking and the manual M5 gives a far better response!
The point I was trying to make is the difference between enjoying performance in a performance car (as a typical RS4 or RS6 owner might), and enjoying the process of driving (as the owner of a Lotus Elan or Formula Ford might). I've always been firmly in the latter category, and I think manual gearboxes belong there too. If it's faster, I'm not that interested - if it's more enjoyable, then I am interested.Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 18th January 18:51
telecat said:
As somebody said. All the right gears are in there. its whether they are selected in the right order. It's very little use having a well programmed box if it's programming means what it does is decide to do something else from what you wanted.
In reality, that doesn't happen. And certainly not as much as a manual gearbox operator getting the wrong gear.RobM77 said:
The point I was trying to make is the difference between enjoying performance in a performance car (as a typical RS4 or RS6 owner might), and enjoying the process of driving (as the owner of a Lotus Elan or Formula Ford might). I've always been firmly in the latter category, and I think automatic boxes belong there too. If it's faster, I'm not that interested - if it's more enjoyable, then I am interested.Dr Gitlin said:
This really is a daft sentiment. The ZF 8HP is a bloody good gearbox, and one can derive a huge amount of pleasure driving the car manually with those lovely aluminium paddleshifters.
It was designed around that gearbox, the same way the Porsche 718 was designed to use the PDK box (and isn't nearly as good with the manual).
Not daft at all, I don't like automatics that much. ZF8 is dull and ponderous It was designed around that gearbox, the same way the Porsche 718 was designed to use the PDK box (and isn't nearly as good with the manual).
Rawwr said:
RobM77 said:
The point I was trying to make is the difference between enjoying performance in a performance car (as a typical RS4 or RS6 owner might), and enjoying the process of driving (as the owner of a Lotus Elan or Formula Ford might). I've always been firmly in the latter category, and I think automatic boxes belong there too. If it's faster, I'm not that interested - if it's more enjoyable, then I am interested. Absolutely. Plus a direct drive, without a layer of mush between your right foot and the wheels (although admittedly the latest ZF does lock the torque converter when in gear), and the ability to think ahead and prepare the car for a corner and then control the car through the corner - no auto box knows what's coming up next! Keep em for wafting is what I say, that's what they're best at.RobM77 said:
Rawwr said:
RobM77 said:
The point I was trying to make is the difference between enjoying performance in a performance car (as a typical RS4 or RS6 owner might), and enjoying the process of driving (as the owner of a Lotus Elan or Formula Ford might). I've always been firmly in the latter category, and I think automatic boxes belong there too. If it's faster, I'm not that interested - if it's more enjoyable, then I am interested. Absolutely. Plus a direct drive, without a layer of mush between your right foot and the wheels (although admittedly the latest ZF does lock the torque converter when in gear), and the ability to think ahead and prepare the car for a corner and then control the car through the corner - no auto box knows what's coming up next! Keep em for wafting is what I say, that's what they're best at.You are right, no autobox knows what it coming next...but no manual box knows what is coming next, both rely on the driver's knowledge/decision of what is coming next!
Ares said:
smarty156 said:
Mike335i said:
Not daft at all, I don't like automatics that much. ZF8 is dull and ponderous
I'm guessing you've not driven a Giulia then, especially a Quadrifoglio?I know automatics are easier, more efficient etc etc, I just don't care. Don't want one, don't like autoboxes for fun cars. But they are great for relaxing and cruising.
Mike335i said:
Ares said:
smarty156 said:
Mike335i said:
Not daft at all, I don't like automatics that much. ZF8 is dull and ponderous
I'm guessing you've not driven a Giulia then, especially a Quadrifoglio?I know automatics are easier, more efficient etc etc, I just don't care. Don't want one, don't like autoboxes for fun cars. But they are great for relaxing and cruising.
Drive it before you make sweeping generalisations
It's a bit like me saying the current BMW M3 is dull because I didn't like the 3 litre turbo in the 2012 335i
As mentioned above, you are allowed to not like autos, but it's intangible. You just don't like autos, you don't have to create factual air scientific reasons for it, because once you bring science in, the auto is typically better.
It's a bit like people with Ginger hair. You can just simply not like them, but to try and justify becomes tricky
Mike335i said:
No not driven one sadly, but I have driven the ZF8 in various BMWs and, whilst I know the implementation of them is supposedly flawed and it is much better in the Alfa, it is still two gears too many for me and too lacking in a clutch pedal.
I know automatics are easier, more efficient etc etc, I just don't care. Don't want one, don't like autoboxes for fun cars. But they are great for relaxing and cruising.
You really need to try one. Fun is definitely a term you can use with the Quadrifoglio with this box. Full power shifts in Dynamic or Race in a tunnel are very enjoyable too!I know automatics are easier, more efficient etc etc, I just don't care. Don't want one, don't like autoboxes for fun cars. But they are great for relaxing and cruising.
Mike335i said:
No not driven one sadly, but I have driven the ZF8 in various BMWs and, whilst I know the implementation of them is supposedly flawed and it is much better in the Alfa, it is still two gears too many for me and too lacking in a clutch pedal.
I know automatics are easier, more efficient etc etc, I just don't care. Don't want one, don't like autoboxes for fun cars. But they are great for relaxing and cruising.
eight gears is no bad thing - think of it as a six speed manual with two additional overdrive gears to allow quieter and more economical high speed cruisingI know automatics are easier, more efficient etc etc, I just don't care. Don't want one, don't like autoboxes for fun cars. But they are great for relaxing and cruising.
Ares said:
Mike335i said:
Ares said:
smarty156 said:
Mike335i said:
Not daft at all, I don't like automatics that much. ZF8 is dull and ponderous
I'm guessing you've not driven a Giulia then, especially a Quadrifoglio?I know automatics are easier, more efficient etc etc, I just don't care. Don't want one, don't like autoboxes for fun cars. But they are great for relaxing and cruising.
Drive it before you make sweeping generalisations
It's a bit like me saying the current BMW M3 is dull because I didn't like the 3 litre turbo in the 2012 335i
As mentioned above, you are allowed to not like autos, but it's intangible. You just don't like autos, you don't have to create factual air scientific reasons for it, because once you bring science in, the auto is typically better.
It's a bit like people with Ginger hair. You can just simply not like them, but to try and justify becomes tricky
Of course they are objectively better, but then so is a Tesla. Doesn't mean I want one of them either.
I will admit that the ZF8 was only dull and ponderous in the diesel applications I have tried. I'm sure it's better in proper cars like the qv, but I'm just a control freak that doesn't want to surrender to automation!
I'm currently in a manual Golf R and was tempted by the Giulia.
I went to the dealer and got a test drive in a Veloce expecting it to be reasonably sporty. I left it in sport mode and put my foot down and was very underwhelmed, maybe I expected too much. The suspension was good and it handled well over a bump surface.
I've never had an auto and the Alfa box with it's massive paddles was not particularly responsive, again maybe I expected too much.
It's a nice place to sit and everything fell to hand and it cruised nicely. The 280bhp Veloce is definitely not sporty.
The Mrs used to have an Alfa GT from new and it broke monthly, the Giulia didn't inspire me enough to take the risk.
I went to the dealer and got a test drive in a Veloce expecting it to be reasonably sporty. I left it in sport mode and put my foot down and was very underwhelmed, maybe I expected too much. The suspension was good and it handled well over a bump surface.
I've never had an auto and the Alfa box with it's massive paddles was not particularly responsive, again maybe I expected too much.
It's a nice place to sit and everything fell to hand and it cruised nicely. The 280bhp Veloce is definitely not sporty.
The Mrs used to have an Alfa GT from new and it broke monthly, the Giulia didn't inspire me enough to take the risk.
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